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H.B.M.C. wrote:Hypothetical mikhaila:

If you were getting your GW products through Alliance, what would your opinion of this change by GW be?

Oh hell, I'd be pissed. I'd be getting things late continuously, and never have them for customers on the day that GW said they were out.
At that point, not only are you paying more for your stuff, but it gets to you later than everyone else. I can't see this going over well with any stores that is carrying GW, but for some reason not direct.

Well I guess we can all thank wayland for this one.

Why you say that?

LunaHound wrote:Why you say that?

Because they used the leaked information to put Necrons up for pre order before GW. It's a bit coincidental that this happens so close to Wayland putting the Necrons up off leaked information. That is, of course, if they use a distributor.

I really actually expected something like this to happen when they did that.

I thought it was Beast of War?

LunaHound wrote:I thought it was Beast of War?

They got the information from the BoW leak, but it was Wayland that put them up early based on that information.

Very smart of them too - lets them gauge the interest of the release, how much product to order so no customer is left without.

I am willing to bet that if they got a codex early they would even allow customers, coming into the store, to have a look, and make an informed decision as to what to buy.

You know, customer service and respect for your consumers etc.

Based on my store numbers last year I was around 1.2 million over two different locations. Games Workshop accounted for around 57% of my business. I am at about 18% growth this year so over all things are going in a good direction, looking at adding a 3rd location this coming year.

A couple of Facts

Games Workshop Tradesales and Games workshop Retail are two different areas of the same company. Games workshop makes more from trade sales with indie retailers than it does from their own stores. It's important to understand that Games Workshop retail stores are more about recruiting new hobbyist and growing the over all community. The are a boon to Indie store as long as that indie store knows how to sell the product. I would put real doubts on any store that says they are having issues because a store opened up in their area.

Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it. I would argue that sometimes choice can be just as bad as lack of choice. I would say that my average turn over on product is between 6 or 7 times in a year. You need to make every square foot count for you and not burden your business with slow moving product. If your carrying 16 feet of roleplaying books you have other issues with your store.

Warmachine does have a lower start up cost but the cost to stay competitive in the game is higher over a longer period. War Machine is all about arms race, as a shop owner it's my job to keep that arms race going forward.

That leaves you with the last question of a Tyranid player who buys their army and sticks with it for years after painting it and such. As a shop owner do you think it's in my best interest to let that customer come in and play without buying anything for years? No it's my job to challenge his hobby and/or get him excited about other aspects of the hobby. Throw those curve balls that get him to add a unit or go down a different road and buy a different army/game. It's not that hard to do.

Yes GW is expensive, but they are making the best miniatures out there. They are growing the hobby in many different areas. Yes things were cheaper in the past. I started playing when you could buy a gallon of gas or 4 candy bars for a dollar. You can't do either now. But I can still play with my beaky space marines that I bought. What is the cost of those minatures now that I've played with them all these years? What will be the cost of the space marines I bought today at 37.75 after 10 years of playing with them?

These changes that GW is doing now are great for my stores.

Grimstonefire wrote:Logically from their perspective they want:
> as many people in their stores as possible.
> as many paying full retail price as possible

So it doesn't surprise me as it's common sense really.

How far in advance were/ are they selling them these days anyway?

GW forgets the internet exists.

-Loki- wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I thought it was Beast of War?

They got the information from the BoW leak, but it was Wayland that put them up early based on that information.

But is there anything at all to stop Wayland taking pre-orders again based on leaks? The fact is that WD still has to go to the printers in time for it to be distributed EU wide from Poland, human beings still have access to it, and this is apparently where BoW got the information from. Short of some kind of spacial anomaly that allows the magazine to go on sale before it has been printed, or mind-wiped slave drones working in the printers, this kind of thing is difficult to prevent. So even if the new releases are being sent to distributors at a later date, then surely this won't effect what Wayland have done? Even if they have to wait a week or so until after the GW official launch, I'm sure that most collectors will do so if it means they can save 20% on the costs.

Sorry if I have got this completely arse about face!

Pacific wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I thought it was Beast of War?

They got the information from the BoW leak, but it was Wayland that put them up early based on that information.

But is there anything at all to stop Wayland taking pre-orders again based on leaks? The fact is that WD still has to go to the printers in time for it to be distributed EU wide from Poland, human beings still have access to it, and this is apparently where BoW got the information from. Short of some kind of spacial anomaly that allows the magazine to go on sale before it has been printed, or mind-wiped slave drones working in the printers, this kind of thing is difficult to prevent. So even if the new releases are being sent to distributors at a later date, then surely this won't effect what Wayland have done? Even if they have to wait a week or so until after the GW official launch, I'm sure that most collectors will do so if it means they can save 20% on the costs.

Sorry if I have got this completely arse about face!

That's not the point. There's absolutely nothing they can do to prevent Wayland from doing that, and if the prices are accurate, then hey, they might as well.

However, there's also nothing they can do if GW decides to do something like this. If they're going through a distributor rather than ordering directly from GW (I doubt it, with the amount of stuff they move). But I was really expecting something like this - put up our products weeks before us? Your customers won't get it until after our direct customers.

It is, however, a stupid decision. The distributors customers are still GW's customers if they're ordering GW products, and GW is still getting money. The better thing to do is, if they knew who Waylands supplier was, is delay shipments to them, or is Waylands had an account with them (which I assume would be the case for such a large store), delay their orders this one time.

Caddery wrote:

That leaves you with the last question of a Tyranid player who buys their army and sticks with it for years after painting it and such. As a shop owner do you think it's in my best interest to let that customer come in and play without buying anything for years? No it's my job to challenge his hobby and/or get him excited about other aspects of the hobby. Throw those curve balls that get him to add a unit or go down a different road and buy a different army/game. It's not that hard to do.

That's quite a different approach from the GTFO of the hobby that you started with

GW armies today are NOT impulse buys and there's a clear contradiction between this clamped info thing and the investment and planning any customer should do before he commits into making a army with hundred of miniatures and hundred's of dollars... One thing is dreadfleet one shot closed game another thing is a full WFB/40k Army... I'm happy for you because you seem to accept that if that Tyranid guy who got his gears at your store and only updates nids every 4 years has as much right to keep on playing as the guy that buys you a pot of paint every week... Blame GW for the release schedule hiatus not the tyranid player. Is it reasonable for the nid fella not to spend any more dollars apart from the hundreds he already gave you for the bugs as he waits for the dex update? Personally I dont think any player of any race stops there and its your job to lure him, but yet the principle is the important thing here... You would not be able to lure him if you kicked him out of the store.

I will not debate with you the " best models are from GW" or " GW expands the hobby" because thats a different debate really and would run for many paragraphs but the Warmachine thing about being more expensive it still doesn't cut it because to be competitive is not everyones target but even those that have to update armies are NO diferent from a warhammer army update... and updating a WFB army for example is a LOT more expensive than updating a hordes faction...
A guy that spends 200 on his hordes and needs 200 more a couple years later is never as expensive as one 400 wfb army with no updates and lets not even talk about the hobby paints brushes basing etc expenses that involves getting stuff for hundreds of wfb minis...

Mr Short-sighted store owner also seems to be missing the benefit that our theoretical Tyranid player brings to his store - participation. Unless you're SO busy all the time that barely anyone can get use of an instore table, people gaming instore with painted armies attract more of the same, and make the casuals who wander in keen to try new games and join in for a game.

Back in the day (of my last post) the FLGS ended up being our defacto club on Friday evenings/nights. There were a good 10-15 of us who as regulars would come in, play games - both one-offs and campaigns, paint sometimes, hang out, and buy shirtloads of stuff. Because we were welcome, we were also welcoming to new players and did things like run demo games for newbies, paint lessons - you know, the GW newbie welcome stuff, except we did it off our own backs unasked. We bought a lot of stuff, and were also directly responsible for a lot of stuff passing over the counter from demos, recommendations, and general advice.

So go ahead and tell that guy who spent $500 in 2010 but $25 in 2011 to GTFO out of your store. Hopefully he'll take his friends and their business with him as well. As well as those other "little things" as described above.

KGatch113 wrote:

Chim, the GW hate has been going on for years. It will never stop. I totally agree with your comments. You can curse the darkness, or you can light a candle.

What if I curse the darkness for making me have to go through the trouble of having to buy and then light the candle in order to see well? I don't need a candle in the daytime.


King Ghidorah

-Loki- wrote:The better thing to do is, if they knew who Waylands supplier was, is delay shipments to them, or is Waylands had an account with them (which I assume would be the case for such a large store), delay their orders this one time.

The 'best thing to do' is to punish a store for putting up pre-orders even through that information is now in the public domain? To deliberately delay shipments to a store just to hurt their sales is likely a breach of contract and highly unethical IMO. What a devious mind, to frighten stores into conforming with GWs silly rules by strangling off their supplies, you should be working for the mighty Workshop itself with that kind of thinking.

however how much we complain,
no matter how much we talk bad about GW

we will always somehow want that latest mini xD

RutgerMan wrote:however how much we complain,
no matter how much we talk bad about GW

we will always somehow want that latest mini xD

Want, yes.

Buy? Well that's a different matter.

Tin foil hat conspiracy time

1)GW makes it a better proposition to use them as a distributor and chokes other distributors out the market.

2)GW changes terms of service so indies can only stock GW products.

3)With no alternative distributors most indies have to agree or most likely close (due to % of income from GW).

4)GW has stifled competitors out the market due to lack of retail outlets.

5)GW raises prices even further due to monopoly position.

That or I'm just a cynical old nut job :-p

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:2)GW changes terms of service so indies can only stock GW products.

I don't think they can legally demand that a shop only stock their stuff.

Honestly GW must be made out of Teflon
It is not the fault of BoW or Wayland or anyone else.

The fault lies squarely with GW and their policy decisions.
If GW gave out the info themselves everyone could have put Necrons up for pre order

In the end, it all boils down to the price and that's what really matters to me. Yes, it certainly is a bad change for us customers since it means either waiting for the retailer to stock up on the new products or pay the full price at GW, but in the end, it's up to you.

I will still buy my stuff at Wayland, simply because it is a lot cheaper...when I can get two boxes of immortals for almost the same price as one bought at GW (~36€ at Wayland, 30€ at GW), I rather wait for 3 weeks until the shipment arrives. Nobody likes waiting, but I prioritize waiting over paying significantally more.

The only thing I still buy at the local store are ICs and, of course, new codices.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:2)GW changes terms of service so indies can only stock GW products.

I don't think they can legally demand that a shop only stock their stuff.

I'm pretty sure they can make it a term of service when it's time to renew contracts, then the retailer has a choice wether to accept new terms or cease trading with GW, your not forcing them per se. Plus GWs idea of what is and isn't legal is certainly "interesting" at best lol.

Other companies constantly work on new marketing and advertising strategies, GW constantly works on new strategies to punish customers, stores and now distributors. Guess their punishment department is now bigger than their marketing department, if they actually have the latter. But noone will tell the raging managers that punishing customers doesn't prevent leaks.

BTW whatever the leak for Wayland was, it wasn't aware of the Cryptek, of Flayed Ones being Finecast and Lychguard/Praetorians and Immortals/Deathmark being one kit.

The problem for GW is that they do not advertise or have curtailed their previews..

Distributors in other industries have shipped product so it hits on day of release. I worked in video game distribution and a lot of our releases, such as AAA titles were shipped to land on day of release. Did this for other products too.

Here though, there was marketing and advertising prior to release.

As long as distributors can get the goods out in time I don't see a real problem, other than the lack of information forthcoming from GW.

Caddery wrote:
It's important to understand that Games Workshop retail stores are more about recruiting new hobbyist and growing the over all community. The are a boon to Indie store as long as that indie store knows how to sell the product.

I have heard similar statements from GW. However, if you examine their behaviour you see a different picture. They get FLGS build up a community of sufficient mass to support a GW store and then open the store. This obviously has a negative effect on the FLGS, especially if a large portion of their sales come from GW products.

Caddery wrote:
Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it. I would argue that sometimes choice can be just as bad as lack of choice. I would say that my average turn over on product is between 6 or 7 times in a year. You need to make every square foot count for you and not burden your business with slow moving product. If your carrying 16 feet of roleplaying books you have other issues with your store.

Although this may be true from the business' perspective it is most definitely not true from the consumers'. You may be able to get a customer to settle for another product and still make the sale, but the customer would be better served with the product of his choice.

patrickparker wrote:Well I guess we can all thank wayland for this one.

Please retract that, its utter nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:

Pacific wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I thought it was Beast of War?

They got the information from the BoW leak, but it was Wayland that put them up early based on that information.

But is there anything at all to stop Wayland taking pre-orders again based on leaks? The fact is that WD still has to go to the printers in time for it to be distributed EU wide from Poland, human beings still have access to it, and this is apparently where BoW got the information from. Short of some kind of spacial anomaly that allows the magazine to go on sale before it has been printed, or mind-wiped slave drones working in the printers, this kind of thing is difficult to prevent. So even if the new releases are being sent to distributors at a later date, then surely this won't effect what Wayland have done? Even if they have to wait a week or so until after the GW official launch, I'm sure that most collectors will do so if it means they can save 20% on the costs.

Sorry if I have got this completely arse about face!

That's not the point. There's absolutely nothing they can do to prevent Wayland from doing that, and if the prices are accurate, then hey, they might as well.

However, there's also nothing they can do if GW decides to do something like this. If they're going through a distributor rather than ordering directly from GW (I doubt it, with the amount of stuff they move). But I was really expecting something like this - put up our products weeks before us? Your customers won't get it until after our direct customers.

It is, however, a stupid decision. The distributors customers are still GW's customers if they're ordering GW products, and GW is still getting money. The better thing to do is, if they knew who Waylands supplier was, is delay shipments to them, or is Waylands had an account with them (which I assume would be the case for such a large store), delay their orders this one time.

This has nothing to with us thanks, you are massively over estimating the impact of the leak of information. When we listed the products it was from information in the public domain. That only a few stores followed suit is an example of their failure to seize an great sales window. Other stores often have products listed before us, I don't come and whine on the internet about it. Its business.

Regarding products being witheld from us or suffering slow deliveries, we operate in the EU and there are laws in place to ensure anti competitive practices are severely punished. GW are more than aware of risks presented in the EU if they were to pursue such policies. We have never suffered slow deliveries or anything like it.

Regarding this distro action in the US, again I suggest small store owners whom already cannot plan purchasing for anything regarding GW items will look to cultivate othe revenue streams. What might not be evident here is this is likely an anti online store move in the US, online stores are likely to buy from a distro in the US... and one of the largest retailers is also a distro - well a sister company is. This is actually designed to both hurt them and drive sales to GW's own web property.

Caddery wrote:Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it.

In my case, yes.
Games Workshop
Privateer - Because the players specifically ask for it and buy a ton of it.
Howard Hues - Historical miniature painters buy a ton of this from me, and no one else around carries it.
Vallejo Military colors - Because if you're painting Flames of War, all those hues for German Tanks are tough to get off a GW rack.
Reaper Triads - No clue why they sell so good, but many people prefer them.

Does 5 racks mean 5 times the sales? No. Probably closer to 1.8 times the sales, as the bulk is still GW, as are my miniature sales. But I don't see any reason not to give better selection to my customers while increasing my profits.

And I wouldn't recommend this for newer stores. 20+ years gives a store a more established clientel, and you can judge what product ranges you need. I need a ton of paints, bitz, scenery, etc. I also run a ton of events that pull in people from other stores which don't have my selection, and they do a lot of shopping on tournament days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

patrickparker wrote:Well I guess we can all thank wayland for this one.

This doesn't affect Wayland at all. They don't go through a distributor. The timing is coincidental. This has been in the works longer than the BOW leak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:Tin foil hat conspiracy time

1)GW makes it a better proposition to use them as a distributor and chokes other distributors out the market.
2)GW changes terms of service so indies can only stock GW products.
3)With no alternative distributors most indies have to agree or most likely close (due to % of income from GW).
4)GW has stifled competitors out the market due to lack of retail outlets.
5)GW raises prices even further due to monopoly position.

That or I'm just a cynical old nut job :-p

1) This has always been true. I can go through distribution, have access to less product, lose 10% discount, and not get 1800 a year in prize support, plus free advertising, racking, etc. Or I can go through GW...
2) Pretty damn sure this violates a few laws in some countries.
3) I'd be hurting if I dropped GW, then again, GW hurts as well.) Many other shops don't do the % I do though, and Warmachine and FOW would have a big surge.
4) Lots of places wouldn't play ball, many already carry more PP or FOW than GW, others would learn.
5) Raise prices even more than they do now? I think the universe would implode.)

Which other company can do something like this:
"Another leak and we treat you like CUSTOMERS!"
"Oh no, not like customers! Anything but not like customers! Have mercy!"

mikhaila wrote:

Caddery wrote:Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it.

In my case, yes.
Games Workshop
Privateer - Because the players specifically ask for it and buy a ton of it.
Howard Hues - Historical miniature painters buy a ton of this from me, and no one else around carries it.
Vallejo Military colors - Because if you're painting Flames of War, all those hues for German Tanks are tough to get off a GW rack.
Reaper Triads - No clue why they sell so good, but many people prefer them.

Does 5 racks mean 5 times the sales? No. Probably closer to 1.8 times the sales, as the bulk is still GW, as are my miniature sales. But I don't see any reason not to give better selection to my customers while increasing my profits.

And I wouldn't recommend this for newer stores. 20+ years gives a store a more established clientel, and you can judge what product ranges you need. I need a ton of paints, bitz, scenery, etc. I also run a ton of events that pull in people from other stores which don't have my selection, and they do a lot of shopping on tournament days.

- Games Workshop has the best washes
- Privateer the best pigment
- Howard hues never used them
- Vallejo the best pots in the market they keep paint safe for many years
- Reaper only have 10 or so and some colors are a nice alternative to vallejos.

So yes me as a hardcore Hobby junkie would be at your store for sure... Instead of hunting down the pots I want from the brands I need in several different stores and ultimately doing my math and going online to save on driving to 4 different stores to find 4 different brands of paints...
Seasoned painters will love your store because they know exactly what brands and colors they want to mix... Imagine that I go for a P3 Coal black and they only have GW and try to shove me a chaos black pot! Lol not going to happen totally different colors.
So it may take space but I bet the hobby geeks will be very pleased with your store.

One thing that really annoys me so much is trying to support a local store that only has 1 paint brand and then I take the time to go there and the paints I want are out of stock, waste my time and money on transports just to be dumped and my painting weekend is screwed... One time thing is ok but constantly? Bye bye.

mikhaila wrote:

Caddery wrote:Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it.

In my case, yes.
Games Workshop
Privateer - Because the players specifically ask for it and buy a ton of it.
Howard Hues - Historical miniature painters buy a ton of this from me, and no one else around carries it.
Vallejo Military colors - Because if you're painting Flames of War, all those hues for German Tanks are tough to get off a GW rack.
Reaper Triads - No clue why they sell so good, but many people prefer them.

Man, I wish you were closer. It's always 2 lines only at the stores here(2 have GW/Vallejo, 1 GW/Reaper, 1 PP/Reaper, 1 PP/GW).

That's a lot of driving to get the specific colors I use currently.