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My guess is that GWs obsession with secrecy is not based on stupid marketing. My guess is a company that "borrowed" so much of its intellectual property, and then sued everyone who tried to do the same, is worried about copyright infingement. If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.

Mango wrote: If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.

They could try that, but GW could just as easily prove that they designed and made the model first. If there's a picture of a model to be leaked, there's documentation as to WHEN that picture originated.

That argument is fundamentally flawed.

Platuan4th wrote:

Mango wrote: If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.

They could try that, but GW could just as easily prove that they designed and made the model first. If there's a picture of a model to be leaked, there's documentation as to WHEN that picture originated.

That argument is fundamentally flawed.

Not really, flawed. My company was recently part of a lawsuit regarding patent infingement. Company A was selling a product we had developed and licensed to them. They were supposed to be paying us royalties. They made a minor change to the process and claimed it was a different product. Long story short, after a lengthy lawsuit and a ton of lawyer costs, the court decided that the company would pay us one lump sum payment, and then never have to pay another dime, yet could still sell the product.

I imagine a similar situation could arise regarding little plastic models.

Mango wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Mango wrote: If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.

They could try that, but GW could just as easily prove that they designed and made the model first. If there's a picture of a model to be leaked, there's documentation as to WHEN that picture originated.

That argument is fundamentally flawed.

Not really, flawed. My company was recently part of a lawsuit regarding patent infingement. Company A was selling a product we had developed and licensed to them. They were supposed to be paying us royalties. They made a minor change to the process and claimed it was a different product. Long story short, after a lengthy lawsuit and a ton of lawyer costs, the court decided that the company would pay us one lump sum payment, and then never have to pay another dime, yet could still sell the product.

I imagine a similar situation could arise regarding little plastic models.

That not quite(or at all) like what you posted regarding GW.

If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining.

Good grief Charlie Brown how often do we have to hear this posh tosh regurgitated?
Take a leaf out those well off Dakka members who spend fortunes on their GW hobby without having such a condescending attitude please.


Trouble is GW seeing the distributors as competition because there is no seperation between their manufacturing and retail arms.

Mango wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Mango wrote: If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.

They could try that, but GW could just as easily prove that they designed and made the model first. If there's a picture of a model to be leaked, there's documentation as to WHEN that picture originated.

That argument is fundamentally flawed.

Not really, flawed. My company was recently part of a lawsuit regarding patent infingement. Company A was selling a product we had developed and licensed to them. They were supposed to be paying us royalties. They made a minor change to the process and claimed it was a different product. Long story short, after a lengthy lawsuit and a ton of lawyer costs, the court decided that the company would pay us one lump sum payment, and then never have to pay another dime, yet could still sell the product.

I imagine a similar situation could arise regarding little plastic models.

You're allowed to do that with patents, that's why they are public documents - to encourage innovation. If you make a significant improvement on the original patent then you can supersede the patent owners' rights. Though it is open to abuse as some people will copy the item and then do something minor like paint it red and claim "red wunz go faster" so they don't need to pay you.


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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining.

Good grief Charlie Brown how often do we have to hear this posh tosh regurgitated?
Take a leaf out those well off Dakka members who spend fortunes on their GW hobby without having such a condescending attitude please.

yeah apparently it doesn't matter if you've been in the hobby 20 years. You should take any old gak the company shovel at you and be happy or just clear off.

The city I'm living in now, I lived in about 13 years ago. I lived here about 4 years ago. And I've visited off and on in those intervening times.

There is an FLGS in this town. They are the store that got me into Warhammer 13 years ago. They are where I bought my 2nd edition starter set. They are where I bought my first paints. They are where I entered my first miniature painting contest. They have always been huge flag-carriers for GW products. When I lived here 13 years ago, their main products were board games, pen and paper RPGs, and GW. Basically the only other miniatures they had were Reaper models for use in RPG, there were no other wargaming miniatures.

When I lived here 4 years ago, the RPGcraze had died down a bit. But GW was still there. They had an even bigger selection of GW stuff, board games, and those collectible D&D prepaints.

In May I came here to scout for housing. They still had tons of GW stuff. The only other miniatures they had were a single rack of Warmachine things.

This fall I visited the shop, and their GW selection seems to have some competition. Suddenly rival company hobby products (like Gale Force 9) have a significant presence. Reaper paints have their own rack. And Warmachine, Malifaux, and Infinity have their own sections.

Now, I wonder what could have happened to make them suddenly re-align the products they carry after years of strong GW support?

I'm not saying this latest move will cause them to hasten their move away from GW, but I can guarantee it won't bring them back to the good ole' days when GW was the only game in town.

And I'm not telling GW how to do their job, but there is no other miniature store in town and no GW store for miles and miles. If I were them, I wouldn't alienate the people who helped me make money.

Caddery wrote:

If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining. That or you really think War Machine is cheaper..because I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.

There is the possibility that there are among us--gamers that can comfortably afford Games Workshop product but choose not to, as they disagree with their business practices. In my experience, those that are most vocal regarding 40k--be it critical or defensive--are the ones that tend to care the most about the company/universe. It certainly isn't a waste of energy complaining--and the only time it would be a waste--is if you continued to purchase as much as you generally do.

Which is something I do see often. People will state "Well, I disagree with what they are doing so I'll just spend my normal gaming budget and not a penny more". Well....yeah that's what they would hope that you do...get less product for the same amount of cash...

Also, while not a thread for the discussion, I would politely disagree with WM being as expensive as 40k. If you are an avid collector, yes you will likely purchase multiple armies and spend the same amount of money as you did previously with Games Workshop. But for those "I'm going to buy a SW army like XYZ and play it for the next 2 years in tournaments"--WM is much cheaper to start.

Mango wrote:My guess is that GWs obsession with secrecy is not based on stupid marketing. My guess is a company that "borrowed" so much of its intellectual property, and then sued everyone who tried to do the same, is worried about copyright infingement. If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.

I would love to see you get a comparable model line sculpted and produced in anything less than six months to a year from "leaked" material. And even if you were somehow able to get everything done in a week and out into stores, the GW artwork and models still pre-dated your own meaning you still don't have the IP on them if they are blatent copies of the GW models.

I have still not seen how this is a bad thing. If you want to have your products for the street date, then use GW as your distributor.

Other companies do this... most of the comments here are the same old 'GEEDUB SUCKS! THIS IS STUPID'

Customers want the plastic crack... and if a FLGS is unwilling to buy from GW directly then the customers will go elsewhere if they wish to get street date releases. If the FLGS wants to have releases then order from GW... or have customers who understand they have to wait for their 25% discount.

Doesn't hurt me, so I don't really care. My Stores deal with GW directly so doesn't hurt the owners I buy from. Not sure I care about stores who don't order from GW, they have an option if it is a real issue.

It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Mango wrote:My guess is that GWs obsession with secrecy is not based on stupid marketing. My guess is a company that "borrowed" so much of its intellectual property, and then sued everyone who tried to do the same, is worried about copyright infingement. If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.

I would love to see you get a comparable model line sculpted and produced in anything less than six months to a year from "leaked" material. And even if you were somehow able to get everything done in a week and out into stores, the GW artwork and models still pre-dated your own meaning you still don't have the IP on them if they are blatent copies of the GW models.

We are now entering copyright law that covers Derivative work, which is covered on other topics at this site.

aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.

Pretty much I've been saying for several months now.

aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.

Do they though? Or do distributors and retailers get the same discount from Games Workshop?

I ask, as before when our group checked into purchasing from distributors--the markup was generally 5-10% above buying straight from Games Workshop, which led me to believe they were afforded the same initial discount.

BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.

Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.

Indeed.

Also, Kan, they didn't "spoil" anything. They helped build up hype, something the company sucks ass at.

have still not seen how this is a bad thing. If you want to have your products for the street date, then use GW as your distributor

Restrictive practices affecting competition that might offer a discount is a good thing?

AgeOfEgos wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.

Do they though? Or do distributors and retailers get the same discount from Games Workshop?

I ask, as before when our group checked into purchasing from distributors--the markup was generally 5-10% above buying straight from Games Workshop, which led me to believe they were afforded the same initial discount.

Distributors get a 2% higher discount than retailers. Alliance and most distributors sell to stores at 35% off, and free shipping over 400.00, so they are 10% higher than GW direct, but your profits on the product are slashed by about 22%. E-Figures sells at 40% discount on GW, with a flat 5.95 shipping charge, for a bit better deal. Stores won't see better than that, as I can't imagine a distributor working on less than 7% margin, with shipping charges and CC fees to eat, and have anything left over to pay for the staff, packing materials, etc.


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Melissia wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.

Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.

Indeed.

Also, Kan, they didn't "spoil" anything. They helped build up hype, something the company sucks ass at.

Semantics. Spoiled = Spoiler. That we all want the info ahead of time has nothing to do with GW's veiwpoint that the information was leaked out.

Adam LongWalker wrote:We are now entering copyright law that covers Derivative work, which is covered on other topics at this site.

Indeed, though my key point was to address the recurrent idea that you can somehow instantaneously put products onto the market from seeing leaked material. Hell, we have codexes still lacking models from either GW or 3rd party companies years after they were released.

mikhaila wrote:

Distributors get a 2% higher discount than retailers. Alliance and most distributors sell to stores at 35% off, and free shipping over 400.00, so they are 10% higher than GW direct, but your profits on the product are slashed by about 22%. E-Figures sells at 40% discount on GW, with a flat 5.95 shipping charge, for a bit better deal. Stores won't see better than that, as I can't imagine a distributor working on less than 7% margin, with shipping charges and CC fees to eat, and have anything left over to pay for the staff, packing materials, etc.

Ahh, ok thanks for the information. So, if Games Workshop's goal as stated by another poster was to cut out distributors (Not saying it is as I haven no idea), would this benefit GW?


I'm under the assumption that the reason retailers use distributors in the first place is due to their inability to afford initial buy in for a GW account. If that was true, how would taking away distribution help GW fiscally--other than the 2% margin (Which I would assume would be grossly off set by the volume the distributor moved)?

@JOHIRA All Indie stores that are out of the sphere of influence of a GW store in my region are doing exactly the same thing as you have posted.

Adam LongWalker wrote:@JOHIRA All Indie stores that are out of the sphere of influence of a GW store in my region are doing exactly the same thing as you have posted.

That it's out of the 'sphere of influence of a GW store' is irrelevant, as the majority of indie stores are like that. They react to what their customers want, not stock one single range and tell their customers tough cookies.

An indy store which stocks exclusively stuff from one particular manufacturer, GW or not, is an indy store that's (in my opinion) likely to fail.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Distributors get a 2% higher discount than retailers. Alliance and most distributors sell to stores at 35% off, and free shipping over 400.00, so they are 10% higher than GW direct, but your profits on the product are slashed by about 22%. E-Figures sells at 40% discount on GW, with a flat 5.95 shipping charge, for a bit better deal. Stores won't see better than that, as I can't imagine a distributor working on less than 7% margin, with shipping charges and CC fees to eat, and have anything left over to pay for the staff, packing materials, etc.

Ahh, ok thanks for the information. So, if Games Workshop's goal as stated by another poster was to cut out distributors (Not saying it is as I haven no idea), would this benefit GW?


I'm under the assumption that the reason retailers use distributors in the first place is due to their inability to afford initial buy in for a GW account. If that was true, how would taking away distribution help GW fiscally--other than the 2% margin (Which I would assume would be grossly off set by the volume the distributor moved)?

Not so much the initial buy in, althought that might be a factor for some, as:
- Ease of ordering. A store can make one phone call for all it's product.
- Ability to order blisters one at a time (when metal was out).
- Able to order a very small amount of GW product, tack it on to a larger order of games, and get free shipping.
- And some stores are so small they have trouble ordering the 400.00 a week in product from a distributor for free shipping, and may need the GW models to bulk up their order.

Caddery wrote:I am fully behind this move and other Games Workshop has made this year.

There is a lot up in the air with this thread. I think the main thing driving the Secrecy of GW releases is that you will find customers who will hear something is coming out and stop spending, sometimes for months, but will continue to come into my store and use my tables, use my time but not support my store until that release. Since the change in information I find that customers spend continuously and do not really worry about what is coming out next.

Next every well run store should be able to meet any requirement set to order from GW directly. GW's own stores with one employee will make anywhere from 150k to 250k a year on their own products alone every year. It just requires that you take the time to recruit new players and keep your customer base from becoming a club house. Now add in products like Magic, Warmachine, Hordes, flames of wars and etc. You should be able to grow in the correct direction. But in the end stores that can't make GW products work just don't know how to sell it or are unwilling to do what needs to be done.

Things that hurt independents more is discount retailers. The rely on volume because if you look at the basic accounting fundamentals a store down the street discounts product 20% has to sell 40% more to equal what I sell. Remember the saying work smarter not harder.

If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining. That or you really think War Machine is cheaper..because I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.

Store owner? You should really learn some customer relations and service dude. As for that last part people don't need to be unable to afford stuff to say "whoa hold on a minute, prices here have crossed a line" and have their opinion. Now seeing as with no new sprue developed you get 75% less necrons for your money than a couple of months ago you are saying this is acceptable?
Sneak peeks and talking projects in the pipeline is good for creating excitement imo and if all the changes such as shipping to the southern hemishere is to truely help retailers and not line their own pockets than this had best be a wild rumour as it es all over them.
Meh rant over, just another nail in the coffin I fear for GW, stockpile for when Kirkby sells his shares off...

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Good grief Charlie Brown how often do we have to hear this posh tosh regurgitated?

Considering Dakka is among the most rampantly pro-GW forums out there, surprisingly seldom.

BrassScorpion wrote:Return to the "bad old days". In the 1990's GW had a terrible reputation with independent sellers and distributors. They've worked hard the past 10 years to rehabilitate that image. Sounds like they forgot everything they've learned and worked for to go back to policies that alienate a lot of customers and sellers.

Agreed, they notoriously bullied the stores.

JOHIRA wrote:This fall I visited the shop, and their GW selection seems to have some competition. Suddenly rival company hobby products (like Gale Force 9) have a significant presence. Reaper paints have their own rack. And Warmachine, Malifaux, and Infinity have their own sections.

Now, I wonder what could have happened to make them suddenly re-align the products they carry after years of strong GW support?

They decided to be a better store?)

Hell, I'm usually all "RAH! RAH! GAMES WORKSHOP!", but I've got a couple of dozen other lines of miniatures, and 5 other lines of paint.

Let's suppose GW did mistreat this store and caused a change. The irony is they are a better store for doing it.

Byte wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:Return to the "bad old days". In the 1990's GW had a terrible reputation with independent sellers and distributors. They've worked hard the past 10 years to rehabilitate that image. Sounds like they forgot everything they've learned and worked for to go back to policies that alienate a lot of customers and sellers.

Agreed, they notoriously bullied the stores.

And yet each time they always gave them great intro sets, and support. My flatmate had a shop took in GW stuff, started doing really well with it, them suddenly GW opened up .

Vermillion wrote:

Byte wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:Return to the "bad old days". In the 1990's GW had a terrible reputation with independent sellers and distributors. They've worked hard the past 10 years to rehabilitate that image. Sounds like they forgot everything they've learned and worked for to go back to policies that alienate a lot of customers and sellers.

Agreed, they notoriously bullied the stores.

And yet each time they always gave them great intro sets, and support. My flatmate had a shop took in GW stuff, started doing really well with it, them suddenly GW opened up .

Same thing happened to a store I know. Apparently GW was great with the service, until they opened their own store near-by. Next thing, orders begin arriving late, they aren't being told about new releases, etc. They eventually dropped GW games altogether, and have only now brought back a little bit of GW items. The store is dominated by FoW and WM/H, however.

Considering Dakka is among the most rampantly pro-GW forums out there, surprisingly seldom.

Once is too much, but given that it will crop up at least once on threads with certain recurring topics, it is too far too frequently spouted.
It is nothing to do with being proi GW. Some of the most vociferous GW supporters on the site don't see the need to say it.

Rather than being told I am too poor to play WH, I am more interested in someone explaining why GW have imposed this ruling and what the consequences might be for customers.

This is a very poor move on GW part. While it solidifies their control over the market for their good it weakens their distribution. GW is hedging its bet that by doing this consumers will migrate to stores that worship at the GW alter... and that stores who presently don't will capitulate by going directly to GW. They're hoping the numbers of those who don't care and the numbers who decide to do other wise aren't that significant. That was GW can continue operating under the pretense "if you don't buy from us, you're inconsequential."

In the mid-to-late 90's the store I shopped at stopped selling GW completely because of the way they were treated. They're still around, and they will likely stop selling again because of this type of move. I imagine this will be a bit more common than it was then, just by virtue of many more alternatives being available to the market.

mikhaila wrote:

Not so much the initial buy in, althought that might be a factor for some, as:
- Ease of ordering. A store can make one phone call for all it's product.
- Ability to order blisters one at a time (when metal was out).
- Able to order a very small amount of GW product, tack it on to a larger order of games, and get free shipping.
- And some stores are so small they have trouble ordering the 400.00 a week in product from a distributor for free shipping, and may need the GW models to bulk up their order.

Yeah, all good points. I would imagine this is more aimed at online shops that circumvent GW by going distributors more so than the actual distributors---just a guess though.