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nkelsch wrote:Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it.

No one's mentioned anything about retailers breaking street (and manufacturers have ways of punishing stores that do...). The only thing that anyone's brought up are some stores in Poland that apparently committed the horrible crime of informing their customers when product was going to be released.

Eumerin wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it.

No one's mentioned anything about retailers breaking street (and manufacturers have ways of punishing stores that do...). The only thing that anyone's brought up are some stores in Poland that apparently committed the horrible crime of informing their customers when product was going to be released.

Uh yeah. More like one of these store had a customer who worked for the publishing company which did White Dwarf, and camera phoned it up.

Kanluwen wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it.

No one's mentioned anything about retailers breaking street (and manufacturers have ways of punishing stores that do...). The only thing that anyone's brought up are some stores in Poland that apparently committed the horrible crime of informing their customers when product was going to be released.

Uh yeah. More like one of these store had a customer who worked for the publishing company which did White Dwarf, and camera phoned it up.

How is something like that going to be affected by GW's new rule regarding distributors?

Kanluwen wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

And 'spoiled'? Please...

Dread Fleet, Ogre Kingdoms, and Necrons off the top of my head.

I think it's the "spoiled," with the inherent negative connotations, that's at question here. I'll give you "leaked," but is there some evidence that those releases were damaged by the unofficial early disclosure?

I use 'spoil' and 'leak' interchangeably so there might be a contextual snafu going on here.

Well, there you go then. For me, substituting "leaked" into your original post changes the tone significantly.

I can't say whether they were necessarily 'damaged' by the early disclosure--but it does kill the buzz and hype that Games Workshop themselves plan. Look at the reaction we had here on Dakka when GW put up their 'teaser' video on Monday. It was nothing but complaining that "why don't they just hurry up and show us the <insert whatever expletive you want here> models?!" or "stupid GW, we know this hurry up and put them up for preorder!".

I don't think that's very conducive to making GW want to make it easy for places to potentially leak information, do you?

Personally, I don't think my response would have changed - I find teasers uniformly annoying, and have ever since Lucas destroyed the Star Wars brand. In this context, and paired with the current silence policy, I can fully understand people's frustrations with teasers - it doesn't come off as "we're building buzz," it comes off as "we could tell you, but we're not going to."

Wont be long before FLGS get new releases a week or two after the GW stores start selling them

The real problem here isn't the clamp down on leaks, it's screwing over the independent retailers by delaying them getting stock and effectively holding a monopoly on the stock for a few days.

Undoubtedly those first few days count because there are a lot of people who can't wait and have to buy as soon as possible. GW therefore deny the independents this part of the market and have it exclusively as their own.

Really that's very very poor form. The independents are being treated as competitors - not supporting retailers of their product. They apparently see independents as a necessary evil because they can't have stores everywhere particularly in the US, but they'll gladly hinder these stores and take their customers. A lot of game stores run on a tight budget and need the custom from the latest releases so to treat them like this is dreadful.

Howard A Treesong wrote:The real problem here isn't the clamp down on leaks, it's screwing over the independent retailers by delaying them getting stock and effectively holding a monopoly on the stock for a few days.

Undoubtedly those first few days count because there are a lot of people who can't wait and have to buy as soon as possible. GW therefore deny the independents this part of the market and have it exclusively as their own.

Really that's very very poor form. The independents are being treated as competitors - not supporting retailers of their product. They apparently see independents as a necessary evil because they can't have stores everywhere particularly in the US, but they'll gladly hinder these stores and take their customers. A lot of game stores run on a tight budget and need the custom from the latest releases so to treat them like this is dreadful.

Read it again Howard, I had to. It's the distributors they're going after, not the independent retailers directly.

Independents who stock via distributors which aren't Games Workshop though are going to be affected.

It's not about White Knighting Kan, it's just another in a long line of brainless business decisions by the folks at GW that once again you're lining up to defend.

Look at this from a store's perspective. Now they get their products after the release date, because their distributors cannot get them their products any earlier. That's an ass-backwards way of having a commercial relationship with distribution partners and the stores that push your products.

I get that GW has their own retail network as well, but they don't have to be complete fethers about it.

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:The real problem here isn't the clamp down on leaks, it's screwing over the independent retailers by delaying them getting stock and effectively holding a monopoly on the stock for a few days.

Undoubtedly those first few days count because there are a lot of people who can't wait and have to buy as soon as possible. GW therefore deny the independents this part of the market and have it exclusively as their own.

Really that's very very poor form. The independents are being treated as competitors - not supporting retailers of their product. They apparently see independents as a necessary evil because they can't have stores everywhere particularly in the US, but they'll gladly hinder these stores and take their customers. A lot of game stores run on a tight budget and need the custom from the latest releases so to treat them like this is dreadful.

Read it again Howard, I had to. It's the distributors they're going after, not the independent retailers directly.

Independents who stock via distributors which aren't Games Workshop though are going to be affected.

That's exactly my point. By going after the distributors they hit the independents being supplied by them. So GW are responsible.

Once again, I'm not defending it. I'm simply stating what it is.

If I were defending it, I would be saying very different things. You automatically infer that just because I'm not shouting from the rooftops that it's the stupidest thing ever that I agree with it.

And quite frankly, there's no real other way for them to do anything to cut distributors out of the picture.

So what you're saying is...... I can get my GW product on the release date in a GW store, which is nowhere near me, for full retail, or I can wait an extra 3-5 days and get it at 25% off retail sent to my doorstep or off the shelf of the FLGS?

Hmmm... decisions, decisions.

Grimstonefire wrote:Logically from their perspective they want:
> as many people in their stores as possible.
> as many paying full retail price as possible

So it doesn't surprise me as it's common sense really.

How far in advance were/ are they selling them these days anyway?

then maybe they should open a F*cking store in my state...

Kanluwen wrote:And quite frankly, there's no real other way for them to do anything to cut distributors out of the picture.

So?

This is why people are saying you're defending them, you honestly don't see a problem with them attempting to screw over other distributors and thus the stores that they supply.

Options for Distribution ISN'T a bad thing, Kan.

Why should I see a problem with them screwing over distributors?

Really. I'd like to know why.

I'll answer your question with a question:

Why, in your opinion, should distributors be screwed over?

Platuan4th wrote:This is why people are saying you're defending them, you honestly don't see a problem with them attempting to screw over other distributors and thus the stores that they supply.

There's a difference between agreeing with a decision and understanding the reasoning behind it.

In this case, GW have chosen a specific business plan. Distributors and retailers cause a potential issue with that plan... so GW have the option of either changing their plan, or changing how they deal with distributors and retailers.

In this case, they have chosen the latter, which shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone given their other recent policy decisions. It doesn't make it any more ridiculous... But it is an understandable decision based on their recent business direction.

Kanluwen wrote:Why should I see a problem with them screwing over distributors?

Really. I'd like to know why.

Because it does over independent stores being supplied by them. Something which I think people should care about.

Maybe you don't get it being in the US, but there are not many independent stores in the UK and rather a lots of GW stores and the industry is the poorer for it. Look after your independent stores because you'll miss them when they are gone.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Why should I see a problem with them screwing over distributors?

Really. I'd like to know why.

Because it does over independent stores being supplied by them. Something which I think people should care about.

Especially for people like me which have no Games Workshop stores within 4+ hours driving of my location.

nkelsch wrote:Where's the beef? Lots of things have street dates which means everyone gets them at the same time. Not sure that there is a problem with a product maker controlling the releases. It doesn't strike me as something that is bad for me, the customer.

Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it. I would want to hear from store owners like mikhaila and have them tell us what the policy actually is and how it actually impacts indy stores before I get my torch and pitchfork for another GW internet lynch mob.

The retailers always obtain the product beforehand though, so they can actually bloody sell it on the day.
If this is true, stores won't get ithe stuff at all until day of release and probably won't be able to sell it until a few days after because of the setup required.

Does that make it easier to understand? It's living hell for shop owners stocking GW product currently because they both have no news on releases, so can't take orders to stock up and now apparentlly they won't get the product regardless until the day of release.
I get they want people in their stores of the day, but this is the wrong way to do it. Offer some incentives to go into store, like prizes or competitions

To be fair, most independents get their GW stuff directly from GW, with no change happening. GW is just fighting the non-GW distribution chain. Fighting the distribution of your products sounds dumb in most cases, but fits GW's mentality. But then again, in most cases being treated like a customer doesn't sound like a threat as with GW ... and raising interest in your new products 2 weeks before release is not considered treason or spoiling

If you're not selling enough to go directly through GW then you're not going to miss things coming in a few days later than normal. It's really that simple. Any retailer that is concerned about his bottom line and sells enough already would be going through GW because that 3-5% that distributors take off the retail price adds up.

Not defending, just noting.

**Kroot beat me to it, and Kan before that**

Kanluwen wrote:Why should I see a problem with them screwing over distributors?

Really. I'd like to know why.

Just spent about 20 minutes trying to word it and not sound extremely crass, so I'll sum up:

It screws stores that don't deal directly with GW.

And for the people saying the people that don't deal with GW directly aren't selling enough to make a difference, that's not always true.

From what I've been told by multiple store owners, GW is hell to deal with directly, to the point that some stores have considered dropping GW products entirely if they weren't able to use another distributor(which, yes, I'm sure is exaggeration and hyperbole). For areas that have multiple stores, they are now essentially forced to deal directly with GW if they wish to be able compete for sales on release day.

Why are folks surprised about this?

GW's behavior is predictable...if profits go down, prices go up. Their reaction to anything in the marketplace is tighter channel control.

Polonius wrote:Also, GW products aren't movies. They can't be "spoiled."

I suppose the surprise can be spoiled, but still, nobody is paying for the surprise.

Have to say I agree with this!

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?

I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner, frankly.

You almost sound like you're defending this decision of theirs Kan.

Yes. I'm completely defending this decision.

Kanluwen wrote:Once again, I'm not defending it. I'm simply stating what it is.

If I were defending it, I would be saying very different things. You automatically infer that just because I'm not shouting from the rooftops that it's the stupidest thing ever that I agree with it.

And quite frankly, there's no real other way for them to do anything to cut distributors out of the picture.

Doubletalk much? I don't want to start up again about their whole information blackout policy but it only hurts everyone overall.

I'd suggest before you start playing the "Misquote" game, you read the sentence immediately after that statement.

I understand that sarcasm is hard to convey in text, but it really should not have been that difficult to catch.

So in the interest of discussing this further. How would you handle this situation?

Get rid of the policy? Hunt down the offenders and have them fired? At the end of the day i don't see how any of this helps GW as a company.

If your major stores have no idea whats coming out whats to prevent them from taking pre-orders and stocking incredibly bad choices?

Sure bob I'll take 5 boxes of pyrovores, those are awesome right?

For the last year or so every policy shift that's come down as been heavy handed very little communication beyond the same back channel stuff we see from day to day. Every release someone finds a way to leak something despite their changes, when are they going to get the picture?

Warboss Gubbinz wrote:So in the interest of discussing this further. How would you handle this situation?

With fire!!!

I have no clue why you believe that independent shops have no idea what's coming out.

As for how to handle the situation? I've got no real 'good' ideas, at least none that anyone here is going to think is worth implementing.

Nobody wants any kind of these plans to be implemented, where secrecy is still a key part. But if it were me...

1: An approximate release schedule is unveiled at the beginning of each year.
2: As the release date gets nearer, things are finessed further until two weeks prior when a solid date is finally put down alongside of prices.

For a third part, this one is going to be a US centric one. Allow for orders to be made via the US webstore and be shipped to your local independent to be picked up.

Guys, let's not turn this thread into a back and forth between 2 people please, lol, for your own sakes I wouldn't deperately try to get each other to admit one of you is wrong lol! Both have stated positions, and frankly, I think both are subjectively valid, it is simply a matter of whether or not you perceive an FLGS as an integral part of your personal gaming experience, or GW as your sole outlet.

There are justifications for both decisions like it or not, although I personally feel it is a bad move, it is one that serves to enforce a policy they have always been trying very hard to put in place... complete control over information distribution and no advance notice. I hate that policy, but this move is in furtherance of their goals. I don't have to like it for it to make 'sense' in terms of their stated intent.