Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Daemon Hammers are ap3 this makes me sad. Aside from Henchmen we don't have plasma, so what can we do vs TH/SS termies?

There is a cogent argument for daemon hammers being AP2. Codex overrides BRB in case of conflict, explicitly stated in BRB now. FAQ amendment says 'unless stated otherwise, NFW are Unusual Force Weapons'. Codex states daemon hammers are also thunder hammers, so that excludes it from being a stock unusual force weapon.. If you contend that it's still an unusual force weapon, then codex says AP2 (because it's a TH) while BRB says AP3, codex wins.

Sorry quick question, how many of the new BRB psychic powers can GK Librarians take? Since GK Libbies buy their Codex Powers, does this mean we can buy as many BRB powers as the points allow?

GreyHamster wrote:There is a cogent argument for daemon hammers being AP2. Codex overrides BRB in case of conflict, explicitly stated in BRB now. FAQ amendment says 'unless stated otherwise, NFW are Unusual Force Weapons'. Codex states daemon hammers are also thunder hammers, so that excludes it from being a stock unusual force weapon.. If you contend that it's still an unusual force weapon, then codex says AP2 (because it's a TH) while BRB says AP3, codex wins.

Hammers are most certainly AP2. They are unsual force weapons, which makes them AP3, but their rules give them AP2, S*2, Unwieldy, and Concussive in addition to their normal rules.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Sorry quick question, how many of the new BRB psychic powers can GK Librarians take? Since GK Libbies buy their Codex Powers, does this mean we can buy as many BRB powers as the points allow?

Nope. You get to roll on those charts X number of time. X being the Librarian's Mastery Level. Which is 2. So you get two random powers (plus Hammerhand which you get to keep). If you spend the points to become Mastery Level 3 you can roll 3 times on those charts.


It is impossible to buy powers in the codex and also try to acquire powers from the BRB. It is one or the other.

No way Nemesis Hammers are AP3, they already use the rules for Thunder Hammers.

At least Halberds are just I6 swords... although don't try to CC TH/SS Terms ever.

Does this mean Draigo's sword is AP3 as well?

Fafnir wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:No way Nemesis Hammers are AP3, they already use the rules for Thunder Hammers.

At least Halberds are just I6 swords... although don't try to CC TH/SS Terms ever.

Well, they actually technically are at AP3, but they're also at AP2, which overrides that.

Yay! Semantics!

FFS, why didn't they just give the weapons stat-lines in the damn FAQ.

daedalus-templarius wrote:No way Nemesis Hammers are AP3, they already use the rules for Thunder Hammers.

At least Halberds are just I6 swords... although don't try to CC TH/SS Terms ever.

Well, they actually technically are at AP3, but they're also at AP2, which overrides that.

Yay! Semantics!

I think that the most important change in the rulebook are the missions. You can have all the buffs in the world but if you don't complete the missions you won't win the game. Looking at it from a Paladin perspective, they complete the secondary objectives relatively well but only 1 of the 6 missions is essentially kill points. Sure if you want them to take an objective it is difficult to stop them from doing that if Draigo is floating around (which he will be in the vast majority of cases), but the mission that they really excel at is something that you are only going to be rolling up 17% of the time.

Rampage wrote:I think that the most important change in the rulebook are the missions. You can have all the buffs in the world but if you don't complete the missions you won't win the game. Looking at it from a Paladin perspective, they complete the secondary objectives relatively well but only 1 of the 6 missions is essentially kill points. Sure if you want them to take an objective it is difficult to stop them from doing that if Draigo is floating around (which he will be in the vast majority of cases), but the mission that they really excel at is something that you are only going to be rolling up 17% of the time.

True, but this was also the case for Paladins under 5th edition. You could make a case for them being good at objective grabs, since ten Paladins camping over two or three closely placed objectives are hard to move, but this means they aren't spending their time rolf-stomping their way across the table like they should be, and sometimes there's no guarantee the objectives they're camping on will be enough to win them the game.

Kill points will be great for them, as will the scenario where you accrue points for holding objectives. They are also a great way to protect your Warlord, denying extra VP to the enemy.

The new deployment methods though, mean the enemy will start the game a minimum of 24" away, and the Hammer and Anvil deployment exacerbates this problem. This makes deep-striking much more important, which also makes the methods of ensuring deep-striking much more important. I think I'll be finding points for a couple more servo skulls and a teleport homer. It also makes Psychic Communion more useful. I've tended to start my Grandmaster in reserve with a unit of Terminators in the past, but being able to manipulate my Reserve rolls on turn two might be worth putting him on the table...

It's also worth noting that not many people play Paladins as MSU. I think, especially with the scare of power weapons being much less than before, and the ability to tarpit/survive via challenges and shear resiliency, a unit of 1-3 Paladins would make great objective claimers/holders.

So how is FNP resolved with Look Out Sir? Do we see if a wound is nullified before allocation, or after?

I would imagine that all saves relevant to that model would be taken at the same time. A wound is not saved/unsaved until after all the saves are made against it.

the FnP entry says FnP is NOT a saving throw. So maybe LoS happens between taking your regular saves and FnP. So you could LoS your unsaved wound to a guy who then gets FnP against it(if applicable)

Either way, it's pretty much irrelevant in this specific case, since FNP would be shared by the entire squad.

What do you think about Mordrak, with the new wound allocation, it's gonna be pretty messy.

DakotaBlue wrote:What do you think about Mordrak, with the new wound allocation, it's gonna be pretty messy.

Why would anyone bother with Mordrak now? He's worse than before. Fails the Look Out Sir thing, and he and all the Ghosts could die in one shot.


Speaking of ICs getting better or worse... did Coteaz just get better? Two rolls on the psychic power chart will probably end up being better than his listed powers. Hey, does anyone know if his "I've Been Expecting You" ability works while he is inside a transport?

From what I recall that power didn't work while he was in a vehicle and it even says so in the codex IIRC.

Had a chance to test paladins today - I played Tau and my friend played GK.

He didn't use draigo, so it was just everyone using 4+ LOS. We both agreed it was a balanced rule for two reasons.

1) The GK player retained the tankiness that the unit allowed him
2) As his opponent, I could fire on that unit and reasonably expect to kill the man taking LOS's.

After 3 turns, I had killed one paladin and wounded 5 others (out of 8) and I didn't hit him with any ID weapons. It's sorta like the hit points on AV 11 - you're going to die sooner than before, but for that limited time you get increased capabilities (not having to screw with kit).

As an army that lacks mass S8, the paladins didn't really bother me.

We also tried out buildings (called a ruin an AV 12 building), and it was fun! The Paladins inside shot down a pirahna and my hammerhead denoted the building.

4d6 hits later, 2 GK's died. Try it out!

LOS still make draigo a beast. 3++SS, then he can redirect the wound into a paladin on a 2+. So if Draigo is in front it should take about 18 lascannon/melta wounds to drop a single wound onto Draigo (6 failed 3++ saves= 1 wound on Draigo and 5 dead paladins). From the front the unit is basically like a TH/SS termie unit. The obvious solution is to maneuver so that Draigo isn't the closest target, shoot the other paladin unit, or lash/pavane the unit into a cluster with Draigo in back and plasma cannon the unit.

Squad leaders with staffs can also be really abused. 2++ invo followed by a 4+ look out sir=9 power fists needed on average to kill the staff. If it's a librarian with a 2+ LOS that goes up to 36 power fists wounds needed to kill the librarian.

As long as deamonhammers are ruled to be AP2 Draigowing is still a top tier beatstick when it comes to CC. The real weakness I see for Draigowing is Paladins are really expensive, and there won't be much in points left over for air defense. I'm not sure what a 1750 Draigowing list would do if it ran into say 6 Vendettas (780 points), let alone 9 Vendettas (1170 points).

Just a second ...

schadenfreude wrote:
As long as deamonhammers are ruled to be AP2 Draigowing is still a top tier beatstick when it comes to CC. The real weakness I see for Draigowing is Paladins are really expensive, and there won't be much in points left over for air defense. I'm not sure what a 1750 Draigowing list would do if it ran into say 6 Vendettas (780 points), let alone 9 Vendettas (1170 points).

This, combined with the fact that "null-deployment" (i.e. full reserve armies, such as those that rely on DS) are no longer possible (auto-lose if you have no models on the table at the end of any turn - even though it is possible to make GK lists where every model is in reserve, since Terminators may always be placed in reserve), makes any list with Paladins much weaker. You can't rely on holding all your guys together and dropping them in your opponent's face anymore. At the 2k+ level, this is less of an issue, but even so, between balancing relatively rare/fragile anti-air options, having a sufficient number of troops, and the general drop in vehicle survivability makes it much more troublesome to eke out a good looking GK Paladin list.

I'm finding it's even harder this edition to fit paladins in at the 1500 level. I could do it in 5th and still win some games (fluffy yet uncompetitive), but now it's really looking like paladins are reserved for allies unless I can convince my friends to up the points levels of our games.

It's also worth noting that full-reserve is actually illegal now. You're not allowed to reserve more than half of your units, rounded up, excepting things that MUST start in reserve.

I think it's likely one will need to draw on allies and cheap fortifications both in order to make a functional Paladin list. A solodin could sit on an objective behind a defense line and man the skyfire gun.

Positioning in order to deny fliers the ability to Fly and strike at you is going to be important.

GreyHamster wrote:It's also worth noting that full-reserve is actually illegal now.

Yeah, and that's a double whammy for Paladin lists, given that the new deployment maps push armies further apart.

I looked at the Hammer and Anvil deployment and thought "Damn, that's a lot of ground to cover. Lucky I can deepstrike my whole army into close range, otherwise I'd be screwed!"

Then I read the part about only reserving half your force.

"Damn"

Xca|iber wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
As long as deamonhammers are ruled to be AP2 Draigowing is still a top tier beatstick when it comes to CC. The real weakness I see for Draigowing is Paladins are really expensive, and there won't be much in points left over for air defense. I'm not sure what a 1750 Draigowing list would do if it ran into say 6 Vendettas (780 points), let alone 9 Vendettas (1170 points).

This, combined with the fact that "null-deployment" (i.e. full reserve armies, such as those that rely on DS) are no longer possible (auto-lose if you have no models on the table at the end of any turn - even though it is possible to make GK lists where every model is in reserve, since Terminators may always be placed in reserve), makes any list with Paladins much weaker. You can't rely on holding all your guys together and dropping them in your opponent's face anymore. At the 2k+ level, this is less of an issue, but even so, between balancing relatively rare/fragile anti-air options, having a sufficient number of troops, and the general drop in vehicle survivability makes it much more troublesome to eke out a good looking GK Paladin list.

I'm finding it's even harder this edition to fit paladins in at the 1500 level. I could do it in 5th and still win some games (fluffy yet uncompetitive), but now it's really looking like paladins are reserved for allies unless I can convince my friends to up the points levels of our games.

The problem is that people are assuming that in order for Paladins to work, they need to be in a deathstar. Although it's true that a deathstar is one viable configuration, it's not the only one. As I've kept saying, in MSU deployments, they can make for great, cost effective assassins and tarpits.

BTW, if this has been said before I'm sorry.

Paladins have the IN(CH) rule which makes them all characters. This allows each model to precision fire (Any hits of a 6 you can allocate yourself) in the firing phase and shooting phase. Looks like Paladins got a buff to me. I'll take my 5+ ward and 5+ FnP

It's silly to imagine rolling sixs to hit and throwing your halberd to a model of your choosing.

So any ideas on an optimal Draigo list?
I'm thinking Draigo +10 pallies Lib +5 pallies Vindicare and a Dreadknight.

All halberds on the pallies? I'm thinking of maybe adding 1 hammer in each squad and possibly a Stave in the 10 man squad so I can challenge PF sergeants and negate them. Definite maxout on psycannons, now that we get precision they are mandatory (although you need to roll double 6).

What's the best way to loadout DK in 6th?

Maige wrote:So any ideas on an optimal Draigo list?
I'm thinking Draigo +10 pallies Lib +5 pallies Vindicare and a Dreadknight.

All halberds on the pallies? I'm thinking of maybe adding 1 hammer in each squad and possibly a Stave in the 10 man squad so I can challenge PF sergeants and negate them. Definite maxout on psycannons, now that we get precision they are mandatory (although you need to roll double 6).

What's the best way to loadout DK in 6th?

How about some anti-air defense?

wuestenfux wrote:
How about some anti-air defense?

Which would be a StormRaven for the Lib squad, or a fort depending on points.

Red Comet wrote:From what I recall that power didn't work while he was in a vehicle and it even says so in the codex IIRC.

No no no. Incorrect. A general pretty recent FAQ for 5th edition said a non-psychic power like his couldn't be used from inside the vehicle (or couldn't use the fire points in the vehicle to use it). I remember that distinctly because everyone assumed he could do it from inside the vehicle before the FAQ. So nothing in the codex forbids it. Now that we have a 6th edition, I am wondering if anyone, Coteaz included, can use special powers like that from inside the vehicle.

It looks to me like a Stormraven with psybolts gets the +1 str to the hurricane bolters, the heavy bolter shells and the assault cannon shells, making it an absolutely ridiculous gunship, but it costs 255 points.

Yet it will still come into play turn 2 and shoot 12 times with S5, 3 times with S6 and 4 times with S7 and everything is twin-linked. If it launches any missiles on top of that it's over 20 shots in one turn.