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Shep wrote:-if you have wych based anti-infantry, you are going to have an archon... lets see what happens to wyches charging grey hunters. 20 bolter snaps, 3-4 hits, 3 wounds, all saved by shadow field, any that don't will be look out sirred to wyches 6" from the front of the unit.

Wrong, if you have mixed saves (which the shadow field definitely constitutes) you have to Look Out Sir before rolling your saves, you can't use the shadow field to protect other models.

-I'm not sure people have played with flyers enough yet. the mostly fixed position weapon arcs and restrictive 90 degree max turn, plus the minimum forward movement will really balance out their extra survivability.

The weapon arcs are actually pretty generous, I did the maths and at the max range of 36 inches for the DE flyer fixed weapons you are getting over 12 inches either side of where you are actually pointed which falls within the arc, sure you lose some of it as you get closer to the target, but it's enough that I think a smart player will be able to do a lot of damage.

Not to mention the imperial flyers have the luxury of being able to hover for a turn and pull a total 180 if they are about to head off the board and don't want to which is silly, Dark Eldar flyers really should have got Vector Dancer IMO, they are meant to be some of the most agile aircraft out there.

Don't forget that we arbitrarily lost Aerial Assault, and that the marine flyer is cheaper, better armed and armoured, immune to melta, can hover (and is BS5 when it does) than our supposedly superior technology jet plane. (It still looks cooler though. BRING ON THE VOIDRAVEN!)

Shep wrote:I'm fairly shocked by the pessimism about DE. this is how the next few months are going to go.

wych spam and genestealer spam are going to push people completely out of mech spam over the next two months. People will start packing flamers and bigger units to hit genestealers and wyches with more painful overwatches in the following two months as the game starts to stabilize, and then people will start fielding sturdy anti-infantry ranged shots as more foot targets emerge. Dark eldar don't have any problem finding long ranged anti-infantry that can slug it out with other foot based armies.

As the game gets out of the vehicle spam, the incredible buffing that independent characters got is going to rear its ugly head. The high initiative shadow field toting dark eldar will enjoy this trend.

That's just my wild-eyed speculation, its silly to call it anything more than that, but one thing I remember saying when I was trying so desperately to get tyranids to work in 5th edition was that if close combat against vehicles was ever a viable option, this game would turn on its head. Tyranids don't have to spend three elite slots and 450 points on hive guard, and dark eldar don't have to burn three heavy slots and three elite slots for 9 dark lances and 12 blasters. Aside from flyers, you can run lists with entirely close combat answers to vehicles and be fine.

And I expect a release wave of anti-flyers, complete with white dwarf rules, just as soon as they finish getting our money for all the flyers.

Anti flyer isn't really a problem. You might have to shoot them a few times to get them to evade, but ehh then they arent useful. The razorwing is pretty good at taking them down as well.
It is nice, still dont have much of an answer for 2+ wolf guard in longfangs or grey hunters. Same for Cron overlords with 2+ in any cron unit.

It looks like some of the Warrior shooting blobs I've been experimenting with are about to get better. Make a 20-man unit with Duke Sliscus for 3+ poison and a Warlock for Doom, and you have a very scary team for relatively cheap.
As for Jetbikes, do they still do well in 3-man special weapons teams, or should they try forming up into larger groups to charge after firing a few times? It seems like a solution to the wych problem might be to get a few jetbikes into melee from halfway across the field first, they'd still get the 4+ cover on the charge right?
Still, I have a buddy who plays orcs, and I don't think I'll be charging his 30-man boyz squads anymore. I used to be able to tie them up forever, now most of our units would die on the way in... terrible sadness.

Sephyr wrote:

Massaen wrote:

I always saw the DE as about shooting for the most part - they don;t like risking their precious skins!

Oh yeah! Those wyches, mandrakes, Incubi, Fleet, Combat Drugs, open-topped transports, Agonizers, Talos, Wracks, Grotesques all just scream shooty army to me. Don't know why anyone ever even considered they might be meant for CC!

I said for the most part and given the list of units you have there I am right. Combat was always mopping up survivors in my experience not winning the day. Better to hit them and not get hit back.

I personally don't like wyches much (at least in 5th) though that may change. Who ever took mandrakes apart for fun really? Nuff said there. Incubi I am a fan of but would never charge them into 2+ save units anyway as inevitably they had ++ saves and or power weapons of there own so no change there. Talos? I prefer the ravager or razor wing as they synergise with the army better. Wracks are just objective campers and are worse than wyches in combat for the most part. As for grots... Unless in a specIfic build were never very good anyway.

I am over the doom and gloom from dark eldar players, we are only 1 week into the new edition.

Improvise, adapt and overcome

I primarily run a Coven, it uses Wracks and Grotesques ( in raiders and venoms no less )

In 5th ed, the Grotesques were good at killing troops and vehicles. ( Apart from dreads, but even then, they could happily tarpit them. ) And the Wracks as basic troops were 2 APD6 flamers ( Liquifier guns are fantastic ) that frankly, wrecked most anything with a toughness it touched ( 30 poison hits, generally with re-rolls to wound. ) or did indeed sit on objectives ( 3 with a hex rifle, also killed MCs nicely )
I won around 9/10 games I played with that list.

In 6th ed - The Grotesques will be able to kill dreads, so that's a boost - no more just tarpitting them, potential to wreck.

Wracks are still good as far as I can tell, the only major downside is the vehicles are FAR more fragile, but I'lll deal with it.
And while I haven't tested my Talos yet, I imagine it'll be much the same (though when it gets feel no pain now, it'll actually get to use it, as before everything pointed at them negated it.)

Quick question for the DE players that have been getting games in.

What is the best Razorwing weapon loadout you think?

Most people are talking about using voidravens for air to air, it seems to me that the razorwing could be ok on that front, or should it just be built as a dedicated strike aircraft, and tie its guns into what your foot troops are lacking?

I'm taking mine as an AA dogfighter - twin lances, splinter rifles, monoscythes, with a flickerfield (and night shield if I have the points) and that's how my second one will be kitted out when I buy it.

Taking it with Disintegrators is theoretically viable, unless you come up against any AV12+ flyers, at which point you're boned, and frankly, cannon over rifles is now less worth the points.

With the Voidraven (whenever that kit's released) I'll be running mine with 2-4 shatterfield missiles to boost its firepower.

Dark Eldar in 6th edition is a mixed bag. I don't think we got any better, but also I don't feel that we got worse in any significant sense of the word. If anything, the strength of the army has shifted more to Venom Spam than it has before (to some people this is a bad thing, myself included, as I am a big fan of unit variety.)

Assault for DE is going to require a lot more finesse to pull off. Potential assault distances are down, Overwatch really hurts our units - Wyches in particular - and FNP got nerfed. Lack of AP 2 CC weapons doesn't help either. This hurts all of our CC units except for Beastmasters, which got a boost and is probably our go to Elite CC unit now that Incubi can't handle Terminators. Wyches are still a great tarpit unit though, and I'm planning on using them to run down vehicles and then get stuck into some Elite unit to tie it up for a few turns.

Shooting for DE got better for the most part. The rapid fire changes really help our Warriors remain useful even while on the move. Haywire Blasters are better, but don't reach greatness because of the amount of points you have to pay to gain access to them. The introduction of Overwatch may lead to large DE foot armies as Overwatch + higher Initiative + Phantasm Grenade Launchers means that DE are well equipped to handle close range shooting battles that lead to a uhit assaulting the warriors - provided they are in cover. Also, cover got worse, which helps us offensively.

The introduction of Hull Points is a blessing and a curse for DE. Gone are the days of glancing a vehicle so that it can't do anything for the next turn, but by the same token glances now do real damage. Haywire helps with this, and could be the new black for taking out vehicles. On the defensive end, hull points help our vehicles because glances no longer limit our mobility or destroy weapons, and penetrating hits were always going to do significant damage. In the most recent game I played Hull Points actually helped my Raiders (I was trying out Raiders). Also, FF is no longer mandatory, but is still a good idea because you can only move 6" and maintain full firepower with vehicles.

Flyers are something I have a mixed opinion on. I believe in a full alpha strike and sacrificing Ravagers - on which Disintagrators are now really good - to take a unit that might come in on turn 2 or as late as turn 4 really hurts the alpha strike a lot. On the other hand we need a way to deal with Flyers but I may just rely on lance saturation to get the job done.

I guess I don't see the new changes as bad. Although, I played 4th edition DE since 2003, and won around 85% of my games. I've always beem used to having it rough. You just gotta adapt.

Personally, while it's now 5+, I think Feel No Pain is better overall, as my wracks / grotesques / talos get it where they often didn't before.

Also, you can move 12" and maintain full firepower.
Fast Vehicles can move 12" and fire 2 weapons at full BS, the Raider has Aerial Assault letting it move 12" and fire all weapons at full BS, and flyers can move 18-30" or something and fire 4 weapons...

Flickerfield for Flyers is mandatory, it also remains useful on ground vehicles, as when stationary / immobilised / in cc, you retain the save.

Taking a fortification with a comms relay lets you re-roll the reserves roll,
Also, if you take an allied Autarch, it'll come in on a 2+ turns 2-3. (auto turn 4+)

I didn't read any of the replies but my take on it is simple: Get 2 beastly units (maxed out wyches with haywires are awesome for just about everything or an actual Beast unit with 6 flocks and 10 khymera as well as a nice big hellion squad) and stick a 2+ invuln guy in front of each (Vect for one and the Baron for the other could be quite tasty) and try to set it up so they take most of the incoming fire which shouldn't be too hard in most cases (unless they are barraging your ass) and here's the big one to make this work against most things: Eldard tossing a fortune on each of the dangerous units and a doom on whatever you want to destroy! A 2+ invuln with rerolls should be able to tank alot of damage as you make your way to the enemy lines while your ravagers cover you from behind and try to take out anything that might seriously hamper your approach (like the aforementioned barrage douches).

Man, Reavers have gotten beastly in sixth. A 5+ cover save for moving a tenth of an inch? Potential 48 inch movement? Heat Lances cause an explosion 50% of the time they pen? Cover saves are nerfed allowing Bladevanes to do more damage on GEQ. Skilled Rider auto-passes dangerous terrain tests. Our assault phase movement, while more random, will on average place us further away from the enemy than before. Hammer of Wrath effectively gives us 4 attacks per model on the charge. Turbo-boosting no longer restricts you to moving in a straight line, you may turbo boost through an enemy unit, then curve around into LoS blocking terrain if possible, or out of enemy range at the very least.

I'm beginning to think these bad boys are worth their price tag. They're better tankhunters than before, their bladevanes can really reach out and touch people. They can weather overwatch in place of more fragile units such as wyches.

My question to you fine folk is the ideal loadout for Reavers. I've been using a simple 6x Reavers, 2x Heat Lances. I'm debating adding a cluster Caltrop or two to the unit for the better bladevanes. My qualm with this is bringing the cost of a 6 wound, toughness 4 unit to nearly 200 points. It's certainly more killy, but I'm not sure if I can swallow that price tag.

Lokas wrote:
My question to you fine folk is the ideal loadout for Reavers. I've been using a simple 6x Reavers, 2x Heat Lances. I'm debating adding a cluster Caltrop or two to the unit for the better bladevanes. My qualm with this is bringing the cost of a 6 wound, toughness 4 unit to nearly 200 points. It's certainly more killy, but I'm not sure if I can swallow that price tag.

I usually drop the heat lances in favor of the clusters but having both certainly is nice. Also the arena champ is not a chump, taking a power ax or maul on him can be good, or just a venom blade.
Flamers kill reavers as does protracted combat. I am running 2 units of 6 and the two charging together will put a major hurt on whatever they charge

I think incubi with drazhar wreck armies...I got done playing with them, and it amazes me how much damage they can cause.


Warriors on raiders( with night shields an splinter racks) makes them excellent gun boats imo.

People are making a big deal about Incubi's nerfs vs. 2+ saves but at the same time ignoring the huge buffs to the Klaivex. There's not too many characters out there (even few IC's) that can handle a Klaivex in a Challenge, even with a 2+ (Demiklaves=must take). So GH with a Term Wolf Guard? Throttle them.

Also, the change to FNP it's a pretty big buff for the Incubi's as this will give them a save against many of the weapons there tougher targets wield.

ShadarLogoth wrote:People are making a big deal about Incubi's nerfs vs. 2+ saves but at the same time ignoring the huge buffs to the Klaivex. There's not too many characters out there (even few IC's) that can handle a Klaivex in a Challenge, even with a 2+ (Demiklaves=must take). So GH with a Term Wolf Guard? Throttle them.

Also, the change to FNP it's a pretty big buff for the Incubi's as this will give them a save against many of the weapons there tougher targets wield.

The Klaivex just gets so expensive. Why demiklaves cost 20points on top of the power weapon the incubi already has is beyond me. 57 points to get one with Demiklaves and then you really need muderous assault if you want to deal with ICs and onslaught helps. That becomes 82 points very quickly for a 1wound T3 3+ save model. He wont kill any ICs before they get to strike him down.
If Murderous assault worked on all Characters it might be nice.

Exergy wrote:I usually drop the heat lances in favor of the clusters but having both certainly is nice. Also the arena champ is not a chump, taking a power ax or maul on him can be good, or just a venom blade.
Flamers kill reavers as does protracted combat. I am running 2 units of 6 and the two charging together will put a major hurt on whatever they charge

The problem with that is that you can't hit vehicles with your bladevane sweeps, relegating Reavers to a purely anti-infantry role. I've used Reavers to replace the blasterborn I took in 5th, and they've served me very well as tank-hunters thus far. Their mobility is to die for.

ShadarLogoth wrote:People are making a big deal about Incubi's nerfs vs. 2+ saves but at the same time ignoring the huge buffs to the Klaivex. There's not too many characters out there (even few IC's) that can handle a Klaivex in a Challenge, even with a 2+ (Demiklaves=must take). So GH with a Term Wolf Guard? Throttle them.

Also, the change to FNP it's a pretty big buff for the Incubi's as this will give them a save against many of the weapons there tougher targets wield.

The thing is, Klaivex's haven't gotten any better. At all. Nor have Demiklaives.

They've always been able to handle 2+ saves. Challenges are a buff, sure, but one that works both ways. A klaivex can be challenged the same as he can challenge others, drawing his attacks into a sergeant instead of a unit where it may do more good. It's a double edged sword, less of a buff and more of movement sideways.

The buff to FNP does help against power weapons, but it's weaker against the attacks that mooks throw out. So again, not a huge buff, more of a movement sideways. Especially since Incubi are expensive and rarely have wounds to spare.

Nevermind that you still need to get a Haemonculi to gain access to that pain token, and still need an archon to gain assault into terrain.

Incubi were a scalpel unit, capable of excising the enemy's most dangerous elite unit. They were our melee answer to 2+ saves. They can no longer do this. 4 attacks on the charge that ignore 2+ saves are not frightening to a unit of terminators.

Reavers get a 4+ jink, 3+ turbojink because they have skilled rider.

Wyches with a PGL help to mitigate the whole overwatch issue.

The PGL only helps if you're charging out of cover. Which isn't a terrible idea, it gives wyches a 4+ against Overwatch.

But you can't count on it 100% of the time. If the enemy unit has a flamer, even worse.

Although this reinforces my point that you should weaken enemy units with shooting prior to assault to remove any potential flamers.

I'd still say the best course of action to mitigate Wych casualties from Overwatch is feeding the enemy something more durable or less expensive first. 45 point units of Warriors work exceedingly well for this task thanks to the wording on Fleet. You can reroll successful assault moves too. Charge the enemy. If they overwatch, make sure you don't get into combat to minimize your casualties. Wyches sweep in and do their thing. If the enemy holds off on their overwatch, make sure to get your warriors into base to base so they count as locked in combat and can't overwatch the wyches. You'll probably lose the whole unit this way, but it was only 45 points to begin with.

PGL would give you a 6+ cover save in the open, couple that save with FNP and you are saving 44% of overwatch wounds.

20 bolter shots, 3.34 hits, 2.22 wounds, 1.87 unsaved, 1.24 get past FNP.

I don't know what the big deal is. I guess I just need to wait until more people actually play before the whole "wyches die to overwatch' hyperbole dies down.

Or if you just can't afford to lose 1 wych to 10 marines on overwatch, just charge them with the incredibly good reavers first, then the wyches can finish up.

Wyches are amazing this edition, but I see people calling them a dead unit?

To kill elite combat units with good saves, I think harlequin's might be the smartest answer. The survivability nerf they took is palpable, but I think its a bit more logical to go for rends to go through 2+ armor rather than spending that 87 points that Exergy mentioned as being a bit excessive.

I don't think I'll be doing a lot with incubi unfortunately.

I'm also seeing a lot of power axes popping up in DE lists. I'm not sure DE characters are going to be able to handle dropping down to initiative 1 during challenges. I'm just going to be accepting 2+ armor saves on all enemy units except against harlequins or my monstrous creatures, and just go with a venom blade for other characters.

I'm looking forward to setting some of my ideas down on the table and seeing what orks and doesn't.

When is the last time you saw a MEQ squad that had nothing but bolters?

Bolters don't scare me about Overwatch. If it's a unit of marines with just bolters, I will gladly charge my Wyches in there without back up.

But if that unit has one flamer, the damage done from overwatch is doubled at the very least.

D3 automatic hits that wound on a 3+, ignore cover and armor saves. You are very likely to jump from losing 1 wych to 3 or 4 if that MEQ squad has a single flamer in there.

And where is all this magical FnP coming from? Do they have a haemonculus attached to them? You know that ratchets their cost up by 50+ points, right? Did they already kill a unit? Chances are they have then already suffered casualties, making 3-4 wyches dying absolutely devastating.

Wyches are far from a dead unit. They're still quite good. They're just much much more limited than they used to be. You can't charge units with a flamer. You can't charge units with a 2+ save.

I'm personally using my Wyches as a dedicated anti-armor unit. 5 wyches in a Venom with haywire grenades. Between pitching grenades in the shooting phase and charging in the assault phase, should kill any vehicle in the game that isn't a flier. Can also bolster my Wracks in assaults should my Reavers go down or are otherwise unavailable to support the Frankenstein squad.

Lokas wrote:Wyches are far from a dead unit. They're still quite good. They're just much much more limited than they used to be. You can't charge units with a flamer. You can't charge units with a 2+ save.

I'm personally using my Wyches as a dedicated anti-armor unit. 5 wyches in a Venom with haywire grenades. Between pitching grenades in the shooting phase and charging in the assault phase, should kill any vehicle in the game that isn't a flier. Can also bolster my Wracks in assaults should my Reavers go down or are otherwise unavailable to support the Frankenstein squad.

Yep, you and I are thinking quite a bit alike here. They lost the ability to charge flamer units, and terminators (with any chance of doing anything but tarpitting) but gain the incredible ability to erase vehicles.

And I like where your head is at on using the small venom units. I think its either them, or 15 of them coming from a WWP into an Aegis defense line.

Mid-sized Wych units certainly have suffered. Especially in comparison to Wracks these days. Agonisers aren't as good and their special weapons can be removed too early. They're still durable in CC. I'm leaning towards using raider-sized wych squads as tarpits, or bully units. They can easily pick on Longfangs or Devastators in the back field. (Edit: Their grenades allow them to strike at initiative, which makes them such effective bully units. Forgot to mention this.) They can also tie up dedicated assault units for quite a while. Death Company is a good example. Denying them the charge cuts their number of attacks in half. Wyches can tie them up for half the game that way.

Another funny thing I just noticed by breezing over my rulebook on a hunch.

Haywire grenades aren't blast weapons.

We can throw them at fliers.

Shep wrote:PGL would give you a 6+ cover save in the open, couple that save with FNP and you are saving 44% of overwatch wounds.

20 bolter shots, 3.34 hits, 2.22 wounds, 1.87 unsaved, 1.24 get past FNP.

I don't know what the big deal is. I guess I just need to wait until more people actually play before the whole "wyches die to overwatch' hyperbole dies down.

Or if you just can't afford to lose 1 wych to 10 marines on overwatch, just charge them with the incredibly good reavers first, then the wyches can finish up.

Wyches are amazing this edition, but I see people calling them a dead unit?

To kill elite combat units with good saves, I think harlequin's might be the smartest answer. The survivability nerf they took is palpable, but I think its a bit more logical to go for rends to go through 2+ armor rather than spending that 87 points that Exergy mentioned as being a bit excessive.

I don't think I'll be doing a lot with incubi unfortunately.

I'm also seeing a lot of power axes popping up in DE lists. I'm not sure DE characters are going to be able to handle dropping down to initiative 1 during challenges. I'm just going to be accepting 2+ armor saves on all enemy units except against harlequins or my monstrous creatures, and just go with a venom blade for other characters.

I'm looking forward to setting some of my ideas down on the table and seeing what orks and doesn't.

agree mostly

the overwatch thing is not really huge, but those 1-2 wounds you take come from the front, which can mean you dont get your charge off.
also whenever you roll 20 dice, you have a chance to wipe the squad. Often they will do no damage but sometimes they get lucky.

wychs are now best meat shield/tank hunters. Its the new venom spam, 5x wychs with haywire in a 2 SC venom is the same 125 points as the blaster/warrior squad. Except the wychs will average way more hullpoints taken off (less range though) and can tarpit for a turn in CC. I think incubi with drahzar + heamy in a raider (reserved if going 2nd) backed by the new haywire venomspam is going to be pretty boss this edition. Maybe 2 ravagers and a razorwing for heavy support. scourges with haywire as points allow, maybe a beat unit.

I think that is probably DE's best attempt right now.

Some things I've noticed from reading over this thread and going through the rulebook.

1) The Haemy/Wych Assault
-- There is still the downside of the Hamey not having fleet, only units composed entirely of models with fleet can use fleet.

So if you want your fleet, leave your Haemy in the raider or detached and charge him in first

I'm not sure what the poster meant when he said

meneroth2 wrote:and with the changes to fleet it doesnt matter as much to keep the hemonculus with you than it would to leave him back in the raider

2) Haywaire Grenades
-- I'm confused as to why people think Haywire grenades are going to be the #1 outright vehicle killer. Unless I'm misinterpreting the posts about it, it seems like the consensus is that you can just kill vehicles with Haywire Grenades. However, as per page 61 of the BRB

Only one grenade(of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase

Yes you may roll that 6 and 6 and make it explode, but IMO you will likely still need some lances to bring a vehicle down to it's last HP. But, yes, wyches can finish off vehicles before a charge.



Anyway, I'm really excited to get my Dark Eldar on the field and give them a go. Currently working on creating a list based on this new edition and from what I've been reading it seems like there is some room for some cool new builds.

And IMO, new is always good to me.

You can only throw one grenade in the shooting phase.

You may then charge and use those grenades in the assault phase.

A haywire grenade that hits 67% of the time in the shooting phase and removes a hull point 83% of the time it hits.

Then you charge, five haywire grenades that hit 67% of the time and remove a hull point 83% of the time. The one exception being walkers, which instead are only hit 50% of the time at the worst.

6 grenades get 4 hits, those 4 hits are most likely each going to strip a hull point, turning a land raider into a wreck instantly. This is combining shooting and assault into one formula, and the formula shifts slightly when walkers are involved, by 5 man wych units are currently one of the greatest vehicle killers in the game.

reaper501 wrote:Haywaire Grenades
-- I'm confused as to why people think Haywire grenades are going to be the #1 outright vehicle killer. Unless I'm misinterpreting the posts about it, it seems like the consensus is that you can just kill vehicles with Haywire Grenades. However, as per page 61 of the BRB

Only one grenade(of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase

Yes you may roll that 6 and 6 and make it explode, but IMO you will likely still need some lances to bring a vehicle down to it's last HP. But, yes, wyches can finish off vehicles before a charge.



Anyway, I'm really excited to get my Dark Eldar on the field and give them a go. Currently working on creating a list based on this new edition and from what I've been reading it seems like there is some room for some cool new builds.

And IMO, new is always good to me.

you charge and deal with them in assault as normal. even just 5 wyches have a chance to glance a moving landraider to death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lokas wrote:You can only throw one grenade in the shooting phase.

You may then charge and use those grenades in the assault phase.

A haywire grenade that hits 67% of the time in the shooting phase and removes a hull point 83% of the time it hits.

Then you charge, five haywire grenades that hit 67% of the time and remove a hull point 83% of the time. The one exception being walkers, which instead are only hit 50% of the time at the worst.

6 grenades get 4 hits, those 4 hits are most likely each going to strip a hull point, turning a land raider into a wreck instantly. This is combining shooting and assault into one formula, and the formula shifts slightly when walkers are involved, by 5 man wych units are currently one of the greatest vehicle killers in the game.

and vehilces cant overwatch!

Overwatch on its own is not what's killing Wyches, though it's not helping. It's everything. Oh sure, Overwatch only results in one or two dead wyches. What's the big deal?

The big deal is that is 1-2 dead wyches before you get to fight, and therefore 3-6 fewer attacks during that close combat. Given that the margin for beating marines was close before, that margin has now narrowed significantly, as stock marines are killing FAR more wyches than normal (snapfire prekilling, more marines surviving from fewer Wych attacks, and the FNP nerfs double dipping you on the rape train) Sure, if you have an Agonizer, you're still great against normal marines. That's fine, and honestly I NEVER engaged Termies in CC. I shot the bajeezus out of them. In that way, FNP is a nerf. I never (or very rarely) sent my girls against the enemy's CC forces. Why should I do that? I'm Dark F*%&ING ELDAR. _I_ choose were my engagements happen. _I_ decide who dies and when. I don't let filthy little uptrumped monkeigh scumbags touch me with close combat units! I revel in their frustrated outrage when I shoot their assault units and then assault their standard troops. So why did power weapons cutting through my FNP matter? It didn't.

Yet now, I take casualties before I hit, I get INTO combat less often than before (due to dismounting, fleet nerfs and random charge ranges,) and if I DO manage to kill that one unit, what happens? I break it and it runs. If I fail to catch it, it can rally even if I'm within 6". If I do catch it, the other units nearby rapid fire me to death, which is far easier as m only available save went from a 4+ to a 5+. Oh sure, that happened before, but more Wyches were alive after that combat (often times the entire unit) which made them a genuine THREAT, soaking up as much as two squads worth of rapid fire before they died. Now THAT'S a distraction.

I guess I could use them as vehicle killers, but I still need them as scorers, neh? Are we certain that I wouldn't be better served by cheaper, longer ranged, and fastly SAFER warrior squads? Oh I'm certain I would be. If the meta shifts away from vehicles, those warrior squads get more efficient against infantry. If the meta STAYS vehicles, I think I can "make due" with the same 21+ lances I had before.

Sure, Grotesques, Talos, and Chronos all gained from FNP. But I never took any of those because they were too expensive for what they did. Now that WWP is functionally extinct, they are even more expensive for their purported role.

Has anyone tried out wracks/haemies with hexrifles? Seems they would be good being able to get precision shots and all.