IG Discussion thread part III

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**warboss**

it's really only affects small arms fire for the guard to have FNP. all heavy weapons except the heavy bolter will ignore the rule since they're str 6 and so will most if not all ordnance pie plates (i'm not sure on the strength of the whirlwind). i see some uses for fielding a full amoeba platoon with the valhallan commander that gives you repeating conscripts. the main squad of regular guardsmen goes after the enemies objectives while the heavy weapons and revolving door conscripts protect the objective in your deployment zone (conviently right next to your board edge!).

**Dexy**

Why would you even bother with a Melta in the line squad? 6" Useful range means it's never going to fire in a game.

**Grimaldi**

I think I saw that GLs are now 5 points. Might be a better option in line platoons now....plasma is too expensive, melta too short ranged...GL has range and moderate strength.

**Raxmei**

There's a rumored special rule for the Colossus that it can only fire indirectly. If true, the stupid complaints that the Basilisk is worthless because it lost the direct fire mode actually apply to the Colossus.

**Death By Monkeys**

I think plasma will still have a place in line squads if you're running Lascannons - particularly if you can triple-tap with them. But I agree that meltas have no place in a line squad. Now, AC with GL? That might actually be useful with the +1 S order.

**ShumaGorath**

I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.

**Polonius**

If that's true, than AC/GL now runs only 65pts, which honestly is a pretty good price for those weapons. I'd rather GLs were two shots and 10pts, but that's a good buy. Throw in a chimera, and you've got 120pts worth of anti-transport goodness.

**Kungfuhustler**

ubermosher wrote:So how's this for a curve ball: 2 separate posters who seem to have seen the codex say Platoon HQ's can also merge with Infantry squads. Since a Platoon HQ has a FNP medic...

FNP Zerg IG.

This can't, or should not, be true unless a medic is 100 points. Guardsmen should not be amongst the most durable troops in 40k if not the most durable. Just throw in a comissar to give them stubborn & a power-fist and a infantry platoon can stand up to if not spank marines in CC. think about it! a 5+ save followed by a 4+ save in CC?! I will admit that it seems logical that 10 marines should not be able to stand against 45 guardsmen in CC but in game terms this is ridiculous.

**Death By Monkeys**

ShumaGorath wrote:I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.

Somebody's going to ninja me on this, but that's not the way 'Get's Hot!' works anymore. Only on rolls of a 1 - doesn't matter how many shots you fire anymore.

**Polonius**

Kungfuhustler wrote:
ubermosher wrote:So how's this for a curve ball: 2 separate posters who seem to have seen the codex say Platoon HQ's can also merge with Infantry squads. Since a Platoon HQ has a FNP medic...

FNP Zerg IG.

This can't, or should not, be true unless a medic is 100 points. Guardsmen should not be amongst the most durable troops in 40k if not the most durable. Just throw in a comissar to give them stubborn & a power-fist and a infantry platoon can stand up to if not spank marines in CC. think about it! a 5+ save followed by a 4+ save in CC?! I will admit that it seems logical that 10 marines should not be able to stand against 45 guardsmen in CC but in game terms this is ridiculous.

Even at a bare minimum, that unit would cost what, 300pts? And that's before you add any heavy/special weapons? Why shouldn't that unit be able to go toe to toe with 200pts worth of tactical marines?

**AlexCage**

JohnHwangDD wrote:Let's look at a couple squad builds:

10 IG w/ Las/Plas
- as-is 60+25+10 = 95 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+20+15 = 85
10 pts saved, which is a decent trade for losing Deep Strike.

10 IG w/ ML/Plas
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+15+15 = 80
5 pts saved, which is definitely not worth losing Deep Strike.

Now look at GW's newly-preferred build:

10 IG w/ AC/Melta
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+10+10 = 70
a whopping 15 pts saved... Nuff said.

Spiking Plasma by 5 pts (for no good reason), and giving 5 pts back on Autocannon makes the new default build very obvious.

This is why I can't, for the life of me, believe that Plasma went up 5 pts AND doesn't benefit from Double Tap orders. It really does seem cost prohibitive, and it almost completely negates the savings from the cheaper troops. And I need those savings to pay for big boy toys, dambit. In addition to this, everything but the Melta and ML go down in price, making the Plasma pill even harder to swallow. Some of my squads will be staying the same price, even! Absurdity!

Hrm. I wonder how viable that '9 russ' list really is...

**Dexy**

Death By Monkeys wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.

Somebody's going to ninja me on this, but that's not the way 'Get's Hot!' works anymore. Only on rolls of a 1 - doesn't matter how many shots you fire anymore.

1/6 chance of rolling a 1 has a 50% chance of happening when you roll 3 Dice.

**focusedfire**

Wehrkind wrote:Something occured to me today that hadn't before: Vets are now scoring. Given that they can issue themselves orders it seems, that opens up a nifty idea.

Say you have 2 valks in a squad and one holds Vets with Melta guns, and the other holds ST with plasma (or whatever). They would make a really interesting group to zip back behind your opponant's lines to drop next to an objective, an annoying tank or a Devastator type squad.

Objective: pop out, hose unit holding objective with vets with rapid fire order, then hose with Stormtroopers using the same. If the unit holding isn't dead, it is probably darn close. This leaves your opponant with a tough decision: kill the STs who will likely wipe out the holding unit next turn, or kill the vets who will capture the objective if the holding unit dies. Vets and stormies can also get a 2+ cover or so based on orders, and rally the next turn to shoot. This could make for a really horrific unit in the backfield.

However, one heavy flamer or the like will ruin your day, of course. Still, might be a fun unit to have in your back pocket for turn 4.

Has anyone had any luck strolling Sentinels with autocannons on from a short table edge to double tap tank side armor? Do you think this might be viable in the new rules set?

Tank: Vets pop out, pop the twin linked order (if possible) and vape tank with 3x melta. Same with STs on Devastators using rapid fire order. Obvious, but scary.

Good catch, I've had that very thought for the past couple of days and is why I've been defending the Stormies.

I'd also like to add that according to BoLS that the Aerial assault special ability allows to re-roll deepstrike AND(emphasis mine) to grav chute out of the valks. It seems to imply that you don't have to use the valks for deepstrike but rather that it exists outside of and is in addition to the special rules gained by being mounted in a wave serp..Cough..Valkerie.

What GW did was to answer our request to make stormies distinctive and to storm. (I still remember those proposed discussions HMBC and JHDD, and Frazz called it right early on with the S3 AP3

.) They now function as lategame objective denial units that can get there by a variety of means and clense the objective for the vets to hold.

The only thing that would make be even cooler was if there were an open-topped vehicle that the stormies, the Ogryns, and/or the Vets could take.

edit for spelling

**Death By Monkeys**

AlexCage wrote:
Hrm. I wonder how viable that '9 russ' list really is...

9 naked Russes is only 1350 points.

**Death By Monkeys**

Dexy wrote:
Death By Monkeys wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.

Somebody's going to ninja me on this, but that's not the way 'Get's Hot!' works anymore. Only on rolls of a 1 - doesn't matter how many shots you fire anymore.

1/6 chance of rolling a 1 has a 50% chance of happening when you roll 3 Dice.

Doh. Yeah, brainfart on the math. Thanks.

**BoxANT**

I was thinking about it, and AC/melta may be a nice combo.

Coming in at 70 points it's not too expensive, gives you a wide variety of tools (can handle almost anything).

Yes, the weapons do not "compliment" each other, but i'm been thinking about the role of infantry as more "take on all comers" rather than specialists... hmmm.

**aka_mythos**

JohnHwangDD wrote:Let's look at a couple squad builds:

10 IG w/ Las/Plas
- as-is 60+25+10 = 95 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+20+15 = 85
10 pts saved, which is a decent trade for losing Deep Strike.

10 IG w/ ML/Plas
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+15+15 = 80
5 pts saved, which is definitely not worth losing Deep Strike.

Now look at GW's newly-preferred build:

10 IG w/ AC/Melta
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+10+10 = 70
a whopping 15 pts saved... Nuff said.

Spiking Plasma by 5 pts (for no good reason), and giving 5 pts back on Autocannon makes the new default build very obvious.

While I agree the weapon cost changes were a big knee jerk reaction, I don't really believe we ever should have had Deep Strike for free. Nothing that significant should be for free and it certainly was more significant than some of the options we did have to pay points for. But as I was saying increasing the cost of one weapon would have been enough to get the sort of balance they wanted but dropping and raising different weapons creates this disproportional divide between the cost of weapons. The only thing I think you forgot to consider in the new cost is some of the new abilities, some I'd say are trade offs, but some I say are purely positive abilities and for even footed comparison are free points.

**Death By Monkeys**

aka_mythos wrote:While I agree the weapon cost changes were a big knee jerk reaction, I don't really believe we ever should have had Deep Strike for free. Nothing that significant should be for free and it certainly was more significant than some of the options we did have to pay points for.

I think this is a really significant point. Just because GW made the mistake of giving IG free drop troops (which still ultimately didn't keep the list from sucking, but was one of the few things going for it) doesn't mean that we as players should expect that as a precedent or baseline.

**Polonius**

Don't forget that drop troops was included mostly as a nod to the old Elysian Drop Troops lists that was in WD around the time of Armageddon. The doctirnes system was designed to allow most of the rules from those lists to be replicated, and I think drop troops made it in with extensive playtesting with regards to vets and command squads.

So, while it was a mistake, it was a mistake on the order of the Old Iron Warrios lists: trying to replicate a previously balanced list with a global rule that proved to be exploitable.

**Ozymandias**

Polonius wrote: and I think drop troops made it in with extensive playtesting with regards to vets and command squads.

I assume you mean *without* extensive playtesting. The ability to drop suicide squads was worth a lot more than many of the crappy doctrines that you had to pay for.

I was not surprised at all that they removed the free ability to drop IG squads in.

**Polonius**

Ozymandias wrote:
Polonius wrote: and I think drop troops made it in with extensive playtesting with regards to vets and command squads.

I assume you mean *without* extensive playtesting. The ability to drop suicide squads was worth a lot more than many of the crappy doctrines that you had to pay for.

I was not surprised at all that they removed the free ability to drop IG squads in.

That is correct, I edited my previous post.

**aka_mythos**

H.B.M.C. wrote:...That said, if the Griffon is just S6 AP4 and nothing more, then the Colossus makes the Griffon redundant because you might as well have the AP3 for a few more points.

But, again, that said, if the Griffon ignores cover saves, things shift back in favour of the Griffon and make the Colossus' price tag a waste of time. If both ignore cover saves, or only the Colossus does, then it's academic of course.

BYE

From what I have heard the Colossus is fluffwise an upgraded Griffon, which is why its so similar. For me the big turn off to the Colossus is the min range of 24". If you set it up in a corner, it can't touch 25-30% of the average table, in the middle of your deployment zone that jumps to 40-45%. The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

**Kungfuhustler**

Polonius wrote:
Kungfuhustler wrote:
ubermosher wrote:So how's this for a curve ball: 2 separate posters who seem to have seen the codex say Platoon HQ's can also merge with Infantry squads. Since a Platoon HQ has a FNP medic...

FNP Zerg IG.

This can't, or should not, be true unless a medic is 100 points. Guardsmen should not be amongst the most durable troops in 40k if not the most durable. Just throw in a comissar to give them stubborn & a power-fist and a infantry platoon can stand up to if not spank marines in CC. think about it! a 5+ save followed by a 4+ save in CC?! I will admit that it seems logical that 10 marines should not be able to stand against 45 guardsmen in CC but in game terms this is ridiculous.

Even at a bare minimum, that unit would cost what, 300pts? And that's before you add any heavy/special weapons? Why shouldn't that unit be able to go toe to toe with 200pts worth of tactical marines?

yeah, so about 400 points with fuly upgraded weapons and such. They would shoot the crap out of the enemy all the way across the table, rapid fire at close range and win cc 9/10 times. That is a 400 pt troops choice If I ever saw one.

**Kungfuhustler**

not to mention it's double tapping lascannons across the board to killi tanks, and the rapid fire is plasma to kill terminators. oh, and they can go to ground for a 2+ save and get back up acting normally the next turn!!!

**focusedfire**

aka_mythos wrote: From what I have heard the Colossus is fluffwise an upgraded Griffon, which is why its so similar. For me the big turn off to the Colossus is the min range of 24". If you set it up in a corner, it can't touch 25-30% of the average table, in the middle of your deployment zone that jumps to 40-45%. The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

I still stand by what I said in the earlier threads. Some of the units were never meant for a regular 40K game. They are for Apoc games and before anyone says then why not leave them for apoc, shuush. They are saving us money by not making us buy yet another expansion module.

When you examine points costs and base stats it becomes clear as to which units are intended for Apoc as the the fact that they are a complete waste of points in a regular 40K game.

The Collossus and Punisher are the first 2 that come to mind. I know everyone loves them but,I feel IMO, Basilisks really should be for Apoc games also.

Edit: spelling

**Kungfuhustler**

the amoeba squad may bring new definition to line squads, with 55 guys in one unit it could easily "line up" and hold 3 objectives

**Agamemnon2**

On the minus side, such a unit, 40+ infantry models in 2" coherency to each other, would be an unmissable target for artillery of all sorts.

**Raxmei**

aka_mythos wrote:The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

Who said it wasn't a barrage? It has the barrage tag on the French summary.
Griffon has a much more useful minimum range than Colossus and *might* retain the direct fire option, though that asterisk is looking a mite ominous. Aside from that, yeah it's a cheap gun.

**JohnHwangDD**

Wehrkind wrote:Say you have 2 valks in a squad and one holds Vets with Melta guns, and the other holds ST with plasma (or whatever).

2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.
____

focusedfire wrote:
What GW did was to answer our request to make stormies distinctive and to storm. (I still remember those proposed discussions HMBC and JHDD, and Frazz called it right early on with the S3 AP3 .)

The only thing that would make be even cooler was if there were an open-topped vehicle that the stormies, the Ogryns, and/or the Vets could take.

Yes, Stormies are distinctive. But so badly-priced.

Yeah, something completely exotic. Like, say, a FW Salamander Transport?

____

aka_mythos wrote:While I agree the weapon cost changes were a big knee jerk reaction, I don't really believe we ever should have had Deep Strike for free.

Guard shouldn't have costed 60 pts per squad, either. As I see it, we paid 10 to 15 pts per squad for Deep Strike bundled into a squad that was worth 45 or 50 pts.

**Shep**

Raxmei wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.
Who said it wasn't a barrage? It has the barrage tag on the French summary.
Griffon has a much more useful minimum range than Colossus and *might* retain the direct fire option, though that asterisk is looking a mite ominous. Aside from that, yeah it's a cheap gun.

You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly. Once a unit has penetrated your minimum range, you can move 6", move any moveable LOS blocking models out of the way, and then unload, with better accuracy to boot.