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Agamemnon2 wrote:On the minus side, such a unit, 40+ infantry models in 2" coherency to each other, would be an unmissable target for artillery of all sorts.

Yeah, so your enemy hits 6 or 7 or 8 models with each shot. So what? Even outside of cover you're probalby only losing 5 or so each shot, in cover it's 3 or less. at 45 models you need to do 12 wounds to even trigger a moral test.

Shep wrote:You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly.

Where is this, again?

Shep wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

Who said it wasn't a barrage? It has the barrage tag on the French summary.
Griffon has a much more useful minimum range than Colossus and *might* retain the direct fire option, though that asterisk is looking a mite ominous. Aside from that, yeah it's a cheap gun.

You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly. Once a unit has penetrated your minimum range, you can move 6", move any moveable LOS blocking models out of the way, and then unload, with better accuracy to boot.

The above discussion is at least partly in reference to the following:

Raxmei wrote:There's a rumored special rule for the Colossus that it can only fire indirectly. If true, the stupid complaints that the Basilisk is worthless because it lost the direct fire mode actually apply to the Colossus.

We are all aware of what the core rules say about ordnance barrages.

focusedfire wrote:Basilisks really should be for Apoc games

I concur!

Polonius wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:On the minus side, such a unit, 40+ infantry models in 2" coherency to each other, would be an unmissable target for artillery of all sorts.

Yeah, so your enemy hits 6 or 7 or 8 models with each shot. So what? Even outside of cover you're probalby only losing 5 or so each shot, in cover it's 3 or less. at 45 models you need to do 12 wounds to even trigger a moral test.

I know I can hit up to 16 models on a well-landed Thudd Gun barrage, and I routinely field a pair of those delicious guns. The idea of using Infernus shells against these blobs is just too devious not to :-P

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Shep wrote:You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly.

Where is this, again?

I'll PM you a page number when I get home... damn work!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Shep wrote:You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly.

Where is this, again?

Vehicles Shooting, Ordnance Barrage Weapons, page 58 of the big rule book. I have it bookmarked now because people have been coming up screaming about the basilisk once or twice a day ever since the summary was leaked.

Thanks, guys!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Shep wrote:You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly.

Where is this, again?

Page 58 BRB

"If fired directly at the target, they are treated exactly like normal ordnance weapons (ignoring the minimum range in the weapon profile)."

Basically all ordnance barrage can fire direct and roll 2d6-BS and has no minimum range.



edit* DAMN to slow!

Credit to Catferret on Warseer, only the Colossus is required to fire indirectly.

Oh, and indirect fire does deduct BS from the scatter distance unless the target is out of LOS. There are reasons why this is good that are beyond the scope of this thread.

JohnHwangDD wrote:2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.

Your artificially inflating the math here. Now take the "new storms" and "new vets" in the new "55pt chimera" and it comes out 245 for the storms and 165 for the vets. Comes to 410 with the vets and if you team the "new stormies" with regular mech IG then it comes to 370 for an objective grabber and thats taking the "New stormies" at a squad of 10.

focusedfire wrote:
What GW did was to answer our request to make stormies distinctive and to storm. (I still remember those proposed discussions HMBC and JHDD, and Frazz called it right early on with the S3 AP3 .)

The only thing that would make be even cooler was if there were an open-topped vehicle that the stormies, the Ogryns, and/or the Vets could take.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yeah, something completely exotic. Like, say, a FW Salamander Transport?

Hey where are those storm troopers you promised

aka_mythos wrote:While I agree the weapon cost changes were a big knee jerk reaction, I don't really believe we ever should have had Deep Strike for free.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Guard shouldn't have costed 60 pts per squad, either. As I see it, we paid 10 to 15 pts per squad for Deep Strike bundled into a squad that was worth 45 or 50 pts.

In 5th ed you would be right about the squads being worth only 40-50pts(which they are now). But the IG codex was from fourth where they were formidable if run right. I disagree about deepstrike being included in the current(soon to go away) codex. I'm liking the sound of this new dex so much that I might start a Guard army. If I do I guarantee that I'll run a squad of the stormies just for the flexibility.


Edit to clean up appearance

Something's been bothering me about the whole Ogryn debate... I just have to say if you told me that Imperial Guard of all armies were getting a 12 man squad, WS 4, T5, 16 S6 attacks on the Charge preceeded by 12 S5 shots, all for about 160 points, I would have said that was just silly wishlisting. But because it's encapsulated in four 40-point models then it's a horrible price to pay? I think most armies would love a squad as described above for 160 points. A squad of Assault marines with 10 T4 wounds is 190 points before goodies.

I think there might be some prejudice based on past performance of Ogryn, where a SM hit had a 50/50 chance of causing a wound with a bad armor save, and a powerfist would kill whole models at a time. 160 points or so (not even considering the bonehead's extra attack or rumored power weapon), ain't that bad.

There's been some throwing about of brains about the issue on Warseer. Some posters have been crunching the numbers. Their durability against S8 and S9 attacks is such that you could thow a few of them at a Gunfex or a Dakkafex and probably keep it occupied for a couple of CC phases.

You'd still be giving up 3-4 infantry squads for every Ogryn unit you'd field, it's up to individual preferences if that is a fair tradeoff for occasionally being pretty tough and for the fluff. For someone like me who's not too keen on fielding a proper horde army, it's a feasible tradeoff, but even I am not expecting for them to be anything but an expensive liability and handicap that I will have to overcome.

Don't recall if its been posted yet, but the GW website now has pics of the new sentinels and they look good.

focusedfire wrote:But the IG codex was from fourth where they were formidable if run right.

Actually, the current Codex dates all the way back to 3rd Ed. where it was indeed formidable if run right. I ran a very competitive army, and still got max comp. points at RTTs.

Since the release of 3rd Ed. the IG have always had some competitive builds, and will almost certainly continue to have some competitive builds. The issue a lot of players have is that a huge amount of the stuff in the Codex has been junk for years. This becomes doubly annoying when people give IG players crap for fielding "boring" armies.

Uuuhhhmm....Not trying to get your hopes up....but the ignore cover order that everyone says was only a rumor....

It might still have beeen a false rumor and real at the same time.

Theres something on warseer about intervening troops from your own army not giving coversaves as an Army special rule. As opposed to being a part of the unit orders.

Could someone find out more info on this please?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.

It is a bit pricey, but at the same time you can put them exactly where they need to be without caring about intervening units as much as the Chimeras do. They also serve as highly mobile point clean up for enemy deep strikers or the like.

I don't think it is going to be a crucial part of any tourney lists, but I think you could give your opponant fits while using units that you had liked better in previous editions.

The Dude over on warseer is saying something about a special character that allows you to take Storm troopers as a scoring troop unit.

That could change things a lot if its true.

Has anyone gotten a hold of a copy of the new 'dex yet?

Dude said some very interesting things in the list he put up and I'm interested in finding out if any of it is true.

focusedfire wrote:Uuuhhhmm....Not trying to get your hopes up....but the ignore cover order that everyone says was only a rumor....

It might still have beeen a false rumor and real at the same time.

Theres something on warseer about intervening troops from your own army not giving coversaves as an Army special rule. As opposed to being a part of the unit orders.

Could someone find out more info on this please?

Uhm. That's Platoon Drill you're speaking of, if I'm not mistaken. And it was probably the very FIRST rumour to surface about the Guard Codex.

The talk on Warseer seems to be mostly "We can't find this rule anywhere in the Codex" from the 'sources' who supposedly have access to the final codex.

Thanks Alex, Upon reading that was an early rumor but the others by The Dude are more current.

Maybe I missed this in the current rumors but I remember reading before that infantry squads that don't take a heavy weapon can take a 2nd special weapon instead.. is this gonna be the case or was it just fanboy wishlisting?

Also, what are the troop choices gonna be officially? just 1 platoon = 1 troop choice, so no matter what you always need 2 platoons in your list? or is the stormtroopers counting as troops if you take a special character gonna be real?

Veterans and Penal Squads are also Troops choices. The latter, rumored to be 50pts, looks to be a boon for filling the second compulsory slot in 500 point games.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.

Your artificially inflating the math here. Now take the "new storms" and "new vets" in the new "55pt chimera" and it comes out 245 for the storms and 165 for the vets. Comes to 410 with the vets and if you team the "new stormies" with regular mech IG then it comes to 370 for an objective grabber and thats taking the "New stormies" at a squad of 10.

There is NO inflation, because that is the force that the OP suggested and you agreed with. He said 2 Valks and Storms and Vets, not Chimeras. I fact, you didn't mention Chimeras in your reply, nor Mech IG at all. If you switch the Transport and Troops, then you're totally negating the OPs suggestion. Perhaps you were premature in your agreement?

focusedfire wrote:Hey where are those storm troopers you promised

I said I'd re-sell, so you still need to ship them to me first.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Guard shouldn't have costed 60 pts per squad, either. As I see it, we paid 10 to 15 pts per squad for Deep Strike bundled into a squad that was worth 45 or 50 pts.

In 5th ed you would be right about the squads being worth only 40-50pts(which they are now). But the IG codex was from fourth where they were formidable if run right.

We are now playing 5th, so my above analysis is correct. Under 4th, Deep Strike wasn't nearly as useful because Objectives and mobility weren't very important.

focusedfire wrote:I'm liking the sound of this new dex so much that I might start a Guard army.

No wonder you're so up on Storms and the new Codex - you don't own any Guard!

From reading Bols and Warseer it seems to be that there is now a strong consensus on troop platoon layout.

It's RUMORED to go like this:

1 Command Squad
2-5 Troops
0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads
0-3 Special Weapon Squads
0-1 Conscripts

Vets seem to occupy a troop slot all by themselves as do the Penal Legions.


These are only rumors

Wehrkind wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.

It is a bit pricey, but at the same time you can put them exactly where they need to be without caring about intervening units as much as the Chimeras do. They also serve as highly mobile point clean up for enemy deep strikers or the like.

I don't think it is going to be a crucial part of any tourney lists, but I think you could give your opponant fits while using units that you had liked better in previous editions.

Oh, no doubt there are tradeoffs and advantages. Thing is, for 500 pts, you can do an awful lot, so I think the standard for performance is very high. If grabbing objectives, dropping 10 T3 Sv5+ Veterans doesn't seem quite right.

When you talk about intervening units, Chimeras can still Tank Shock or go 6" and use the Heavy Flamer. And for similar points, a couple of Drop Pods will land accurately, too.

I think it'd be interesting to have someone like you try, but I think I'm going to stick wtih the basics.

Update from The Knowing, Griffons can't fire directly, and that is the full extent of their special rules.

The Colossus probably does a beneficial special rule, like ignoring cover, otherwise it would be a completely stupid choice.

What's a Vendetta?

floppy wrote:What's a Vendetta?

A Valkyrie with superior weapons. I think it starts with 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons.

Since the Company HQ is the only one that can give the twin link AT order, can we take 2 of them? And does Creed replace company HQ? I wonder how much 4 order from him will cost us.

JohnHwangDD wrote:There is NO inflation, because that is the force that the OP suggested and you agreed with. He said 2 Valks and Storms and Vets, not Chimeras. I fact, you didn't mention Chimeras in your reply, nor Mech IG at all. If you switch the Transport and Troops, then you're totally negating the OPs suggestion. Perhaps you were premature in your agreement?

First Never said I agreed with it. Said I had the same thought, meaning the teaming up of the storms and a scoring unit. Didn't need to mention the chimeras at that point, only the tactical concept.

Now that it seems like there will be an upgrade that allows you to take them as troops and make them scoring. The pricing is becoming even more of a bargain. You hide them behind the tank wall in a chimera or you deepstrike them ,take your preference, they still become a late game objective stealing nuisance that will be hard to counter.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I said I'd re-sell, so you still need to ship them to me first.

Sorry, but you never specified that they would come from me and/or only me. You did say that you would sell them for 10 cents on the dollar. An offer that I gladly accepted.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Guard shouldn't have costed 60 pts per squad, either. As I see it, we paid 10 to 15 pts per squad for Deep Strike bundled into a squad that was worth 45 or 50 pts

We are now playing 5th, so my above analysis is correct. Under 4th, Deep Strike wasn't nearly as useful because Objectives and mobility weren't very important.

Yeah but you said," shouldn't have" which invalidates your 5th ed only analysis as to the fact that the last Gaurd codex was written in 3rd ed(Thanks Dave). This supports my argument that it was a good codex for the time it was written. This also supports my position that the current IG codex was made obsolete with 5th ed and that the guard squad cost was accurately priced for the time it was written.

JohnHwangDD wrote:No wonder you're so up on Storms and the new Codex - you don't own any Guard!

Absolutely correct. Don't own any,YET. But have played across from them quite a bit. I mainly play Tau, so I'm familiar with having a shooty army. I will say that as a Tau player I would love to have a unit like the storms for 16pts/ea . Before you say Vespids, do a mathammer and see which unit is stronger at 16pts. Then also compare tactical flexibility, armor save, and available upgrades.
Also not currently having a guard army doesn't keep me from seeing the obvious strengths,..and weaknesses,... in these rumored stats for the IG. But hey, I'm only a Tau player who still wins more than half of his matches in 5th ed.
So yeah, There is no real benefit in using storms at that price so I'll be happy to buy them off of you at that 10 cents a dollar you mentioned .