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Seeing how overpriced Storms are, making them Scoring only works if the Character is awesome and FREE.

If you accept an offer, then you accept the entire offer. Nowhere did I state that the terms were severable, therefore, you need to ship first, for which I will pay 1%.

Whether the IG Codex was written in 3rd (for 4th), or 5th makes no difference. It's like looking at the Eldar 'dex during 4th and 5th, and wondering about Mech. The analysis still holds.

I will make a bet with someone:

If Targeters allow a re-roll to wound, I will never say a bad thing about this codex ever again.

If Targeter's don't, I will not buy this P.O.S. Codex and I'll just resume working on my Eldar again, because at least the Eldar have a codex where nothing is stupidly overpriced. Okay maybe a couple things. But at least it's a good, solid codex, and not a P.O.S. like the turd Robin wrote.

Off-topic,
And you failed to state that they were not severable.
Your best defense in this little joke is that you could argue that the contract had a stipulation in it that made sale contingent upon your ability to buy at the much diminished price.

Now that I've given you an out, lets talk.

You can't say that something was created wrong when it was made correctly at the time of creation and accurate for what it was designed for.

You can say it became obsolete, but to attempt to judge the value of something by a set of paradigms that it was never designed for is an attempt to create a false premise in defense of an innaccurate statement.

On-topic,

Now, maybe we can talk about the actual tactical possibilities of the Storm Troopers.

If the rumors are indeed accurate that they may be able to be fielded as scoring troop units, Does this make up for some of what you consider as over-pricing?

Is anyone else upset that Heavy Weapons are a single 2W entry at T3...hence easily instant killed.

That was covered two threads ago

It really comes to a pretty fair trade off when you consider the increased resistance to flamers.


edit for dropped letter

focusedfire wrote:
Now, maybe we can talk about the actual tactical possibilities of the Storm Troopers.

If the rumors are indeed accurate that they may be able to be fielded as scoring troop units, Does this make up for some of what you consider as over-pricing?

Short answer: No

Long answer: While yes, it's cool that they're scoring, you'll probably have to pay extra points to get them scoring. Making it even worse.

Plus, 1 Stormtrooper= approx 3 Guardsmen. 10 Stormtroopers= approx 30 Guardsmen. I'll take the 30 Guardsmen. Stormtroopers suck. Face it.

It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Vladsimpaler wrote:Long answer: While yes, it's cool that they're scoring, you'll probably have to pay extra points to get them scoring. Making it even worse.

Plus, 1 Stormtrooper= approx 3 Guardsmen. 10 Stormtroopers= approx 30 Guardsmen. I'll take the 30 Guardsmen. Stormtroopers suck. Face it.

When you figure the cost of trying to get those 30 guardsmen on to that back odjective it doesn't seem to suck as much as you say it does.

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

I have but regardless, durability to flamers aside I feel this is a nerf overall

I don't have to say that they were severable, because it is clear from any casual reading that the resale ties to buying at 1%. Therefore the resale is obviously conditional.

If I need a rough chisel and have a wide-bladed screwdriver, it'll do just fine on soft wood. So, in 5E, regardless of how it was designed in 3E, Guard Infantry are only worth their 60 pts paid with FREE Drop Troops.

As for tactical possibilities, there aren't any. The Storms are too overpriced to even consider this way.

I for one hope there will be some "take as troops" option for the Stormies.
Not that interested in buying another 25+ Mordians just to fill out the 2 troops req.

@ Chase,
Proper positioning. The very firm rumor of them counting as twin-linked with the proper order, and the current 5th ed coversaves. I'd say they are going to be much better than the were in fourth ed.

focusedfire wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Long answer: While yes, it's cool that they're scoring, you'll probably have to pay extra points to get them scoring. Making it even worse.

Plus, 1 Stormtrooper= approx 3 Guardsmen. 10 Stormtroopers= approx 30 Guardsmen. I'll take the 30 Guardsmen. Stormtroopers suck. Face it.

When you figure the cost of trying to get those 30 guardsmen on to that back odjective it doesn't seem to suck as much as you say it does.

Back objective? You want to pay that extra 100 or so for a Valkyrie? Alright, have fun. Paying 260 points just to get an objective?

I'd take 2 Guard squads both with a Grenade Launcher, and a normal Leman Russ with no sponsons. 150+50+50+10=260, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that what I do will be 100x more effective.

:edit: Do you even play Guard?

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't have to say that they were severable, because it is clear from any casual reading that the resale ties to buying at 1%. Therefore the resale is obviously conditional.

Like how you just in essence repeated what I said but made it sound like it was your argument.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I need a rough chisel and have a wide-bladed screwdriver, it'll do just fine on soft wood. So, in 5E, regardless of how it was designed in 3E, Guard Infantry are only worth their 60 pts paid with FREE Drop Troops.

Not according to GW as it appears that they took steps to correct what was percieved as a flaw. The infantry have been reduced in price by about 10 pts, even after being given a 10pt upgrade. Now,You say they should have been that price all along. If they should have been that price all along then it means that you feel that Drop troops wasn't a part of the design but were a free upgrade trade off for sacrificing unit options to use doctrines. Your arguing both ways.

JohnHwangDD wrote:As for tactical possibilities, there aren't any. The Storms are too overpriced to even consider this way.

So, once again, you say they are useless even before playtesting them. Let me know when you get tired of having them take up space doing nothing.

Good job focusedfire, ignoring my argument.

Essentially you just admitted that I'm right, via silence is consent.

Thanks, and have a nice day.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Back objective? You want to pay that extra 100 or so for a Valkyrie? Alright, have fun. Paying 260 points just to get an objective?

I'd take 2 Guard squads both with a Grenade Launcher, and a normal Leman Russ with no sponsons. 150+50+50+10=260, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that what I do will be 100x more effective.

:edit: Do you even play Guard?

Yep and beat them fairly regularly.

A lot of you have been saying that the guard need something for objective taking. That 2/3 of the missions are objective based and without a late game unit with some punch that it ends up being a draw most of the time. Yet the possibility of a deep-striking, scoring unit, that also just happens to be a pretty good at anti-meq is horrible because of a 16pt price tag. To this all I can say is don't take up Eldar or Tau.
The Valk is essintially a 100pt wave serp ......minus energy prow but already loaded with weapons. You just complained about the price on that.

Dude, You tell me. If the Tau or eldar were getting these units at the price listed and with all of the extra special abilities, "How much should they be?" If you try to say anything substantially less you'll hurt your credibility.

Patience Vlad,

Unlike some, I actually will listen and attempt to discuss a point. This means using thought out words and having a vocabulary as oppossed to just trying to say Ha-Ha you were wrong with out the evidence to back it up.

As to the effectiveness of your 260pt build. They'd never make it to the half way point on the board.


Oh yeah, You made a false assumption about having to take the Valk. Rumors seem to suggest that the re-rollable deepstrike is a seperate rule that can be used as normal or in addition to the jump from the valk

Edit for dropped sentence

Vlad relax. Focused fire is acually Cruddance looking for validation of his work. Dont't take it so personally.

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

I have but regardless, durability to flamers aside I feel this is a nerf overall

There are three very important factors you need to take into consideration.

1. HW squads are now Troops, and therefore scoring.

2. HW squads are part of a Platoon, and therefore can be screened by infantry squads w/out giving cover to enemies.

3. HW squads can be given orders that either make them TL or give them +1 against AV (read: Str10 lascannons, Str8 autocannons, but this order is still not 100% confirmed).


These three factors alone, i feel, more than make up for the fact that they are vulnerable to S6+ weapons.

Good one Foil. Made me laugh *a lttle.

Does that make everyone that bashes the Codex an ex-employee of GW

No, but reading 3+ multi page forums makes me see some trends.

Guard Players = Universally disappointed with portions of the dex

Guys who play other armies but "know" guard = Think that this dex is made of rainbows and fairy sprinkles

BoxANT wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

I have but regardless, durability to flamers aside I feel this is a nerf overall

There are three very important factors you need to take into consideration.

1. HW squads are now Troops, and therefore scoring.

2. HW squads are part of a Platoon, and therefore can be screened by infantry squads w/out giving cover to enemies.

3. HW squads can be given orders that either make them TL or give them +1 against AV (read: Str10 lascannons, Str8 autocannons, but this order is still not 100% confirmed).


These three factors alone, i feel, more than make up for the fact that they are vulnerable to S6+ weapons.

#1 is kinda nice.

#2 is completely unconfirmed - none of the people who have claimed to have seen the actual book have confirmed the existence of such a rule.

#3 is not especially useful, if (as rumored) HW are stuck at Ld 7, and you use the squad's leadership to implement orders.

focusedfire wrote:Patience Vlad,

Unlike some, I actually will listen and attempt to discuss a point. This means using thought out words and having a vocabulary as oppossed to just trying to say Ha-Ha you were wrong with out the evidence to back it up.

As to the effectiveness of your 260pt build. They'd never make it to the half way point on the board.

Evidence, please? Please don't talk about how using evidence when you don't even provide your own.

In fact I do believe that this will make halfway across the board. AV14 does that to you. That's why this codex is Leman Russ spam.

Oh yeah, You made a false assumption about having to take the Valk. Rumors seem to suggest that the re-rollable deepstrike is a seperate rule that can be used as normal or in addition to the jump from the valk

Indeed? Well then you just have a 160 point squad of 10 T3, 4+ save troops. I'd still take a Leman Russ, even if it's not scoring.

Onto your other post:

focusedfire wrote:
Yep and beat them fairly regularly.

Sorry, I must have misworded my question. I meant to ask if you own a Guard army.

A lot of you have been saying that the guard need something for objective taking. That 2/3 of the missions are objective based and without a late game unit with some punch that it ends up being a draw most of the time. Yet the possibility of a deep-striking, scoring unit, that also just happens to be a pretty good at anti-meq is horrible because of a 16pt price tag. To this all I can say is don't take up Eldar or Tau.

I'm not really in the objective taking camp, so I'll ignore that. I play Eldar, and my anti-MEQ capabilities are very nice-Dark Reapers. 2 Str 5 Ap 3 shots from every guy, and these guys happen to have BS4 and a much larger range, in addition to better armor.

The Valk is essintially a 100pt wave serp ......minus energy prow but already loaded with weapons. You just complained about the price on that.

I don't think I ever complained about the price, just the fact that it's another thing to add to the equation.

Dude, You tell me. If the Tau or eldar were getting these units at the price listed and with all of the extra special abilities, "How much should they be?" If you try to say anything substantially less you'll hurt your credibility.

I don't understand, how would this hurt my credibility?

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:As for tactical possibilities, there aren't any. The Storms are too overpriced to even consider this way.

So, once again, you say they are useless even before playtesting them.

I say they are completely useless as Imperial Guard Stormtroopers and no testing is required - it is completely obvious from casual inspection.

OTOH, they are fine as Inquisitional Storms, because those guys are only 10 pts each.

focusedfire wrote:Dude, You tell me. If the Tau or eldar were getting these units at the price listed and with all of the extra special abilities, "How much should they be?" If you try to say anything substantially less you'll hurt your credibility.

As before, these guys are crap. I can't speak for Tau, but as an Eldar player, I would never take them.

For the same 16 pts to hold an Objective, Scorpions are far superior with Sv3+ armor. Scorpions are awesome at holding because they're hard to assault, and very reasonably-costed.

For the same 16 pts to kill stuff up close, Fire Dragons are better because they can pop transports or other enemy vehicles if need be. If a Land Raider is bearing down on them, the Storms stand around doing nothing. The Dragons simply fry the Land Raider.

But when we look at the Elite category, pound for pound, Harlequins beat both of the above options.


As anti-MEQ gunners, I can take Dark Reapers for half the price. Reapers have R48" S5 AP3 H2 guns that are good at shooting more than just Marine infantry, along with Sv3+ armor to help them survive.


For 16 pts, a GEQ needs to be amazing. And Storms simply aren't amazing. They're very narrow at what they can kill, but survive far worse than allied WH Sisters. 2 units of 10 (or 12) Sisters of Battle are far better at holding than Stormtroopers. They have S4 guns and Sv3+, along with Faith. And they cost less.

@Foil,
Never said that. I have units that I never use if being serious with the Tau.

I've already expressed an opinion that some of the vehicles are only good in Apoc games.

I've also noted the competition in the fast attack area and how hard it will be to take even one fast attack if you try to take advantage of the extra tanks now available in the heavies.

RR appear to really suck in this edition unless something good shows up that we don't know.


On the ogryns and Storms my perspective is different because GW is has made tactics normally associated with other armies available to the IG at a little under what the other armies pay. My points being:

Primaris psyker and choir=Farseer w/ warlock retinue

Valks = Wave Serpents

Ogryns = Ork nobs

Storms = Close to being Tau-like

Yes each of these is a little different. They are IG and so have an IG flavor. But having played Tau and Eldar I can tell you that there are viable tactics for the units as they are and wouldn't be considered over-priced in those armies for their intended function.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Dude, You tell me. If the Tau or eldar were getting these units at the price listed and with all of the extra special abilities, "How much should they be?" If you try to say anything substantially less you'll hurt your credibility.

I don't understand, how would this hurt my credibility?

More to the point, as has already been noted, Eldar get Fire Dragons at 16 pts/model. Why on earth would they take silly Storm Troopers?

focusedfire wrote:Ogryns = Ork nobs

Huh? Ogryns aren't even close to Nob Bikers.

Nob Bikers are taken as Scoring Troops, in much larger units, on fast-moving Bikes, with the ability to rip stuff up in HtH. Nob Bikerz are so much better than Ogryns, it isn't even funny.

@ JHDD,

Thing is, Scorpions don't have deep strike and would have to survive in order to strike back.

If you want infiltrate the unit goes up in price first for the exarch, then his weapons, and then you buy the abilities.

The scorps also don't count as a scoring units.

Storms can be armed with meltas for the landraider, do good as they are versus the sorps and get with help can get across the board faster than Harlie. Whom I might add are 18pts and the shadowseer ends up being 48pts and the troupe master ends up at 38 pts.

The storm do the job that 3 Eldar elites can do by your own admission. They may not be as specialized but thats because they are a jack of all trades elite that relies on firepower rather than assault. Why? Because they are guard.

So to have the tactical flexibility of the Storms the Eldar have to spend 2-3X the points

Edit plelling

FocusedFire, please see my post above, reference rainbows and sprinkles. You are not making my last post any less valid.