Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Ogryns = Ork nobs

Huh? Ogryns aren't even close to Nob Bikers.

Nob Bikers are taken as Scoring Troops, in much larger units, on fast-moving Bikes, with the ability to rip stuff up in HtH. Nob Bikerz are so much better than Ogryns, it isn't even funny.

Equals as in multi-wound high toughness bullet soaks. Sometime a unit isn't measured by the amount of damage it does but rather how much heat they take off of the rest of the army.

Notice you didn't argue the other points.

does anyone else find it funny that we're agrueing Over things that aren't even 100% known for sure yet?

edited because i'm too close to Texas!

Remember why back before the orks codex came out, when people talked about how expensive Ork Nobs where and how they where useless, especially bike mounted nobs. Just saying, it's really hard to know how good a unit is just from rumors or even the first read though of a codex. Stormtroopers and Orgyns might be must have units once people see what synergy there is between the other units, orders, and other special abilities.

No, you completely misread. For their points, IG Storms do nothing well, whereas, for the same points, there are at least 4 Eldar units that are far more useful (Scorps, Dragons, Quins, & Reapers).

And that's excluding Scoring considerations. 16-pt IG Storms are *that* bad.

If you go back to Scoring units, we're back at basic Sisters who are cheaper and harder to kill.

And quite frankly, I don't need all 4 of the Eldar units to make a decent Eldar army (Jetlocks). Indeed, I don't need any of them.

Very true NinjaRay..... Very true.

foil7102 wrote:FocusedFire, please see my post above, reference rainbows and sprinkles. You are not making my last post any less valid.

I disagree. But then we both have our ideas about a yet to be released codex.

With the information we have I am able to give my thoughts on what I would do with a unit that has so many tactical possibilities.

If you don't agree you don't have to. But others should be allowed to explore the possibilities without being bullied by those who attempt to claim some supposed superior high ground. Just because they played the old Codex. All that usually means to me is that those individuals are stuck in their ways and will usually have a harder time adapting to the new system.

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, you completely misread. For their points, IG Storms do nothing well, whereas, for the same points, there are at least 4 Eldar units that are far more useful (Scorps, Dragons, Quins, & Reapers).

And that's excluding Scoring considerations. 16-pt IG Storms are *that* bad.

If you go back to Scoring units, we're back at basic Sisters who are cheaper and harder to kill.

And quite frankly, I don't need all 4 of the Eldar units to make a decent Eldar army (Jetlocks). Indeed, I don't need any of them.

Nothing well???

BS4 able to take meltas or plasma come equipped with a meq killer.

Kills meqs, tanks. regular squads, and can strike just about anywhere. Sure doesn't do much against termies but then again, What does do that much to termies in a single round for under 200 pts?

Sure, they do nothing well.

Janthkin wrote:

BoxANT wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

I have but regardless, durability to flamers aside I feel this is a nerf overall

There are three very important factors you need to take into consideration.

1. HW squads are now Troops, and therefore scoring.

2. HW squads are part of a Platoon, and therefore can be screened by infantry squads w/out giving cover to enemies.

3. HW squads can be given orders that either make them TL or give them +1 against AV (read: Str10 lascannons, Str8 autocannons, but this order is still not 100% confirmed).


These three factors alone, i feel, more than make up for the fact that they are vulnerable to S6+ weapons.

#1 is kinda nice.

#2 is completely unconfirmed - none of the people who have claimed to have seen the actual book have confirmed the existence of such a rule.

#3 is not especially useful, if (as rumored) HW are stuck at Ld 7, and you use the squad's leadership to implement orders.

1. Kinda? To each his own, but having additional scoring units that can hold my objectives is very nice to me

2. True it has not been 100% confirmed, but HW teams are part of a platoon, so if this rule turns out to be true, it is a pretty big buff imo.

3. Use their Ld, but if they're 12" away from the CHQ they're Ld will be 9. That's pretty nice imo, especially if the +1 against AV is in there. Str10 lascannons would be huge.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Ogryns = Ork nobs

Huh? Ogryns aren't even close to Nob Bikers.

Nob Bikers are taken as Scoring Troops, in much larger units, on fast-moving Bikes, with the ability to rip stuff up in HtH. Nob Bikerz are so much better than Ogryns, it isn't even funny.

Equals as in multi-wound high toughness bullet soaks. Sometime a unit isn't measured by the amount of damage it does but rather how much heat they take off of the rest of the army.

Notice you didn't argue the other points.

I don't need to argue the other points. The very idea of equivalence between Ogryns and Nob Bikerz is complete nonsense. It's egregiously bad thinking.

If you're planning on tarpitting with Ogryns, you need to add Transport and that just makes the comparison worse. Oh, they're tough? So what. Ogryns don't Score, they don't move fast enough to contest, and they don't present a threat that actually kills things. So how would they take any heat off the rest of the army? Who is going to shoot at useless Ogryns when there are other things to kill?
____

NinjaRay wrote:Remember why back before the orks codex came out, when people talked about how expensive Ork Nobs where and how they where useless, especially bike mounted nobs. Just saying, it's really hard to know how good a unit is just from rumors or even the first read though of a codex.

Stormtroopers and Orgyns might be must have units once people see what synergy there is between the other units, orders, and other special abilities.

The difference here is that Ogryns can't Turbo-Boost for a good Invulnerable save, can't take Wargear to mess with wound allocation, can't take Klaws to rip stuff up, and don't Score. What, exactly will Ogryns do to close the gap?

The typical response upon seeing Ogryns in a Chimera is "cool, he's down a Leman Russ... and a Basilisk". If those Ogryns are backed by Storms in a Valk, the response becomes "wow, he's down *along with *another* Russ... and *another* Basilisk".

@JHDD,

You are wrong. I never said NOB Bikers. Not once. Go back and re-read. Big difference between nob bikers and what I wrote. You said it. My reply was intended to be that like nobs they soak a lot of wounds. You added the Bikers all on your own

Please do me the favor of reading my posts before assuming that I said something.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, you completely misread. For their points, IG Storms do nothing well,

Nothing well???

BS4 able to take meltas or plasma come equipped with a meq killer.

What does do that much to termies in a single round for under 200 pts?

Sure, they do nothing well.

For 70 pts, I can take 5 ISTs with 2 Meltas or Plasmas. Point for point, ISTs outclass IG Storms in every way.

In terms of killing Termies, under current rules, those 200 pts go into a Platoon Command Squad (JO) with 4 Plasma Guns supported by a Veteran squad with 3 Plasma Guns. That'll be 8 DSing Plasma hits that easily wipe the Termies.

You said Nobs. Nobs have a Bike option which makes the points similar, and can be taken as Troops. They own Ogryns in every way.

It will be interesting to see how Ogryns do against Assault Terminators.

Both run 40 points (rumored), but hopefully Ogryns can get the charge (since ATerms have to DS/pod to get close).

5 Ogryns should be able to drop 1 Term, while the remaining terms drop 1 Ogryn. Ogryns loose but are Stubborn. The question is how many turns will the Ogryns be able to tie up the Terms in CC?

For 200 points, I could have a 35man platoon though, and they could potentially tie up a ATerm squad for 4 turns, and would let me shoot the Terms every turn.


Right now I am thinking that I would rather have the more flexible infantry squads than the specialized Ogryns. But perhaps you could make the Ogyrns work.

I have to admit, it's hard to price them. Make them too cheap and they become mandatory, too expensive and they are what we have now, a "fluffy" exotic unit no one uses seriously...

Only time will tell.

JohnHwangDD wrote:You said Nobs. Nobs have a Bike option which makes the points similar, and can be taken as Troops. They own Ogryns in every way.

You made the asumption that every nob is a biker and thats not true. Run into non-biker nobs all of the time. Weren't discussing the options but the tactical function af having very tough bullet soaks.
And yeah, there are poeple who would waste shots on them. Especially if the commander who gives infiltrate or scout/out-flank to a unit in the army is true. HMMM infiltrating Ogryns. Not confirmed, just a possibility as the rumors are drifting out.

So the crux of your argument for why crap Ogryns are actually good is if you can compare them with sub-optimal units?

Nob bikers *are* the bullet soaks because they are T4(5) with an Inv save, and the ability to spread wounds around due to wargear. Saying that they're bullet soaks without giving them the full ability to soak bullets is complete nonsense.

What next? Ogryns are better than Terminators, because Terminators can take their Sv5+ against all saves, even when the 2+ is not negated?

John,
I'm just gonna sit back and let you do the talking for both of us, Seeing as how you like to add words or just completely fabricate what I have or will say.

I've made my point of there are still factors within the Codex that we don't know. Your so caught up in trying to be right rather than examine the possibilities that you won't even consider tactical uses for such a squad and why they might be priced as such.

Maybe you are right, GW priced them just to p**s-off their customer base or more importantly just to anger you. Only time will tell.

@ John,

I understand that Nob Bikers are awesome sauce, but a lot of that awesome is from special rules we didn't have when we where figuring out how much suck they would be. Storm trooper could be crappy like you say, or they could have super awesome special rules or a special character that makes them scoring or awesome sauce. I'll I'm saying is don't judge the model before you see all it's mojo. Then judge it. then wait for Adepticon or some other big event and see if you where right. You totally could be.

BoxANT wrote:
3. Use their Ld, but if they're 12" away from the CHQ they're Ld will be 9. That's pretty nice imo, especially if the +1 against AV is in there. Str10 lascannons would be huge.

I just want to point out that warseer is saying officers do not give leadership. Heavy weapon squads are LD7 for orders and stay that way unless you want to attach an IC. Since orders are a huge thing for HWS I'm not sure if they will be worth it over more infantry squads or Vets, who can supposedly give themselves some orders.

NinjaRay wrote:@ John,

I understand that Nob Bikers are awesome sauce, but a lot of that awesome is from special rules we didn't have when we where figuring out how much suck they would be. Storm trooper could be crappy like you say, or they could have super awesome special rules or a special character that makes them scoring or awesome sauce. I'll I'm saying is don't judge the model before you see all it's mojo. Then judge it. then wait for Adepticon or some other big event and see if you where right. You totally could be.

Unless Ogryn all have power weapons, and the Bone 'ead can get a powerfist, I literally cannot conceive of any suite of rules that would make them worth 8 guardsmen each. 6 Ogryn is literally THREE FULL SQUADS with heavy and special weapons.

I can't even add a caveat to Stormtroopers - there is NOTHING that can make a T3, 4+ save model worth 16 pts/each. (Making them scoring will drive the effective cost per model even higher, should that special character rumor be true.) As has been discussed above, you can get a Sister of Battle for substantially fewer points, for a significantly better save, coupled with Faith and some extremely useful wargear. Or just grab some Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, for an even greater discount. Put either of those in your Valkeries, and you'll have better results in pretty much any conceivable scenario.

@ Janthkin,

I suppose your right. Ogryns need a "Awesome button" and nothing can make 16 point t3, 4+ save models any good. I can see how you think that Fire Dragons suck, because they fit that description.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Vladsimpaler wrote:Evidence, please? Please don't talk about how using evidence when you don't even provide your own.

In fact I do believe that this will make halfway across the board. AV14 does that to you. That's why this codex is Leman Russ spam.

Which army is shooting you up? Am I using the vendetta and 2-less stormies and who strikes first? The russ and infantry are very slow. 260 points of Tau would do the trick as would several other combos I can think of. I didn't list them because I didn't want to wander off into a discussion about how many armies can do what. But rather, wanted to focus on what the IG could potentially do.

If you want we could each playtest the storms vs the russ in our home areas and see what happens in a best of 5 rounds. If I can run the unit at less thsn 10 men then it would leave room for some meltas thus keeping me from trying to rely on grenades.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Indeed? Well then you just have a 160 point squad of 10 T3, 4+ save troops. I'd still take a Leman Russ, even if it's not scoring.

A matter of preference, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Vladsimpaler wrote:I'm not really in the objective taking camp, so I'll ignore that. I play Eldar, and my anti-MEQ capabilities are very nice-Dark Reapers. 2 Str 5 Ap 3 shots from every guy, and these guys happen to have BS4 and a much larger range, in addition to better armor.

Also, a matter of preference so again I invite that we agree to disagree.

Vladsimpaler wrote:I don't understand, how would this hurt my credibility?

Because of the same reason that the Harlequins are so valuable. A multi-use squad good at a variet of tasks in a specialist army. Having a flexible unit is pure gold in armies like these.

foil7102 wrote:No, but reading 3+ multi page forums makes me see some trends.

Guard Players = Universally disappointed with portions of the dex

Guys who play other armies but "know" guard = Think that this dex is made of rainbows and fairy sprinkles

Just for the record, I'm a tourney IG player.

What 40k player isn't ever disappointed with a portion of his/her new codex? Lord knows I am indignant over the lack of Salamanders in the new codex, but I am very far from calling this new codex a failure/injustice/personal insult/affront to all that is good and decent that some are ready to conclude even before a personal read.

Of course, I'm not ready to say it's all sunshine and bl... umm... kisses... either. But I am still excited, and think it will be a marked improvement, flaws and all, over what we have now.

One last bit of news about Griffons. They can reroll the scatter dice. I'm currently leaning towards just using Basilisks anyway.

I'm finding it interesting that GW is attempting to make IG units more expensive overall. It would appear they learned from their Ork codex just how many bodies can get put on the table with super cheap troops. Normally, you'd think they'd be all for selling more models, but I'm thinking there may be concern that too many models on the table will start slowing down games and making them less fun.

So, most units get more goodies but more expensive, keeping IG from going too hordey, and expensive single models (vehicles) get reduced restrictions to allow players to use more of them. Alternately, to encourage people to still buy lots of models, they release several variants of each unit to encourage sales.

As for the rumored units, I'll contribute to the fray:

Stormtroopers: Unless there is some crazy combo we aren't able to see because parts of the codex are missing, these guys aren't looking like a good buy. I think the Vespid analogy is the best...GW clearly intended this unit for one specific purpose, and and overpriced it.

Ogryns: As above.

Chimeras: Price drop (for them and stubbers) makes these look pretty nice. My concerns are the fact that these end up being light tanks more than troop transports, as moving them renders the expensive guns you paid for useless. Also, if IG really takes off, armor will be so prevalent, demand for AT guns will also rise. Spamming chimeras will increase anti-troop firepower but really limit AT guns. And, if the environment goes this way and you only take a few vehicles, you can guess how long they'll last.

Regarding stormtroopers, it sounds like they "deepstrike" out of Valkyries...if so, and they do have some awesome combo, I think we'll end up seeing more DH INQs and mystics.

I still want to see the prices for the AV12 sentinels!

me too, I see possibilities in this book as well. However there have been several posters that can not seem to find any issues with any of the new changes and point costs

People who don't play Guard, presumably.

And this thread turned into a DD/Focusedfire smackdown. I don't know what's worse, the fact that it went for three pages like that, or that I completely agreed with John...

Apologies for having to link to 4Chan to show these:

cooooooool, coooooooooool and coooooooooooooooool plasma cannons.

I just cant wait for the new dex, mech guard is just the the most fun you can have with your clothes on!