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I never thought I'd wish I wasn't getting a new codex, but I am. I don't want an army of a bunch of infantry platoons, Orders or not, or an obscene amount of tanks. I'd be okay with fielding the underpowered doctrine mess for another few years.

lol. I traded six ML teams for a ST squad a few weeks ago. Individually based, standing ML squads I made from my leftover junk on the HW sprue... come to think of it the ML stuff is the only junk on that sprue.

For what it's worth, I put up another thread for what should be done with Ogryns.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/233863.page

I don't see how guardsmen are getting "screwed" in regards to HW/SW cost. *Unless* Plasmaguns are NOT effected by orders, then ya, we got screwed in that regards.

Autocannons *dropped* to 10points, are the same cost as heavy bolters! That is a buff no matter how you slice it.

Meltaguns are the same, GL and Flamers dropped a few points and Lascannons HW squads are 5 (woohoo) points lower (but can be effected by orders).

I can see various layouts for infantry squads.
55 flamer
65 PG
65 GL/AC
75 PG/AC

I however, do not see the point in Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers.

Heavy Bolters give you more hits, therefore more wounds, therefore more chances for your opponent to fail a save. With all the cover floating around in 5th Ed quantity over quality of often the order of the day.

And it's never a choice between Heavy Bolters or Autocannons because the two are designed to do different things. HB trumps the Missile Launcher because its more accurate and gets more hits in. Autocannon trumps the Missile Launcher because it does everything better than the Missile Launcher, except AV13 where they are equal. The Autocannon and Heavy Bolter don't trump one another because neither is designed to do what the other can do.

I think that last sentence made sense...

Yes, HB is better against infantry, but AC can threaten a much wider variety of targets and has longer range.

An infantry squad with an AC can shoot at incoming transports, shoot the infantry that come out of aforementioned transports, and shoot at the dread that deepstrikes right next to them. And it can do all these things rather effectively. Combined with good Order usage, and I think the the versatility of the AC at 10 points is hard to beat.

the range of the autocannon, 48", is also priceless. I have popped many a rhino full of jerks with power armor on turn 1. Missle launchers just miss too often and when leveled against troops their template is decidedly lacking. They are right up there with G/L and mortars in my book. I may change my mind on mortars with this new "choir" but I doubt it.

All I want to do with the "choir" is drop Fateweavers Ld to 2, and shoot him with a couple multilasers and laugh

First of all, I do not see any reason why massed Russ squadrons would be an über unit. Of course AV 14 is tough - against shooting. The first Deffkopta or similar to appear from an outflank maneouvre though will punch two or even three to kingdom come.

Shep wrote:Just knocked this together using collected rumors including rumored points cost.
...
That seems pretty powerful of a list. I might have to check it out this weekend.

I know it has been said already but it IS too light on troops, and despite the BS 4 meltas, probably too light against multiple 2+ save types. You're risking your scoring units to kill those threats because I doubt that 6 battlecannon will do the trick. Even a single Terminator left standing (or a single wound left on a Wingrant) and your troops are an endangered species. You cannot combine front line killer units with scoring units that have to be protected.

ShumaGorath wrote:Isn't IG supposed to be the bottom of the assault barrel?

Sure, but as has been pointed out already, armies that are traditionally considered assaulty do have very decent shooty units (dakkfex, lootas).

Kungfuhustler wrote:@ chaplaingrabthar
The other "supposedly shooty" army in the game, tau, can fly freaking circles around the guard.

If we leave you with some room to fly to, perhaps. Not that it does you any good whether you are at point A or B - we can see you either way.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
See, at first glance, I'd tend to agree, but then I start thinking about Meqs. Yeah, S6 AP4 will be solid against 4+ save armies, but there are just too many Meqs out there for me to get really excited about it. I mean, against a good opponent playing Meqs, the most you'll get under a pie plate will be 5 guys - I think I'd rather pay that 50 points and get something with AP that will clear out all 5 rather than only killing 2-3 of them.

Taking Griffons of course assumes you already have something to deal with MEQ's in your list. As you say yourself, they are quite decent against hordes, and surely you're not fighting nothing but MEQ's. Look at it this way: I'd rather pay those 25 points over a Basilisk and get two S6 blasts that are not only a multiple barrage for a possible 10 hits on 5 models but also rumoured to be able to re-roll scatter. If those marines happen to be in area terrain, the Colossus' advantage is more or less a moot point.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think Platoons should seriously consider MLs. Especially if planning to merge up. Massed ML fire is OK when firing Frag, whereas massed Lascannon / Autocannon for Anti-Tank probably isn't so good because it probably wastes shots.

Massed autocannon fire is decent enough, and so is massed lascannon fire. Ever attacked a Falcon with an AC-FSS or a Land Raider with an LC-ATSS? It's hardly overkill. Yes, the ML obviously pays for its flexibility.

I think that merging squads must be a consideration when building a list. What about an "assault" platoon of 3-4 squads with specials only? Let's say we merge two squads with melta, and two with flamers or heck, even GL for that price, add a commissar with PF to both 20 strong units, and add the command squad to wherever we see fit. Round out with a stationary platoon with a few support squads as a firebase, and I think it could work quite well.

BoxANT wrote:All I want to do with the "choir" is drop Fateweavers Ld to 2, and shoot him with a couple multilasers and laugh

Oh, priceless! Let me do that and die a happy man!

Kungfuhustler wrote:if these are different people a mod needs to fix this. I get all confuzzld when one or the other gets quoted

They are different. I blame the Clinton White House for this fiasco.

I wonder if Commissar Ibram Gaunt will be in the new dex. Haven't seen his name pop up, though I can't see why they would just drop him and yet keep Sly Marbo. Sly Marbo? Really? C'mon man!

Better Marbo than that got Gaunt.

Something occured to me today that hadn't before: Vets are now scoring. Given that they can issue themselves orders it seems, that opens up a nifty idea.

Say you have 2 valks in a squad and one holds Vets with Melta guns, and the other holds ST with plasma (or whatever). They would make a really interesting group to zip back behind your opponant's lines to drop next to an objective, an annoying tank or a Devastator type squad.

Objective: pop out, hose unit holding objective with vets with rapid fire order, then hose with Stormtroopers using the same. If the unit holding isn't dead, it is probably darn close. This leaves your opponant with a tough decision: kill the STs who will likely wipe out the holding unit next turn, or kill the vets who will capture the objective if the holding unit dies. Vets and stormies can also get a 2+ cover or so based on orders, and rally the next turn to shoot. This could make for a really horrific unit in the backfield.

However, one heavy flamer or the like will ruin your day, of course. Still, might be a fun unit to have in your back pocket for turn 4.

Has anyone had any luck strolling Sentinels with autocannons on from a short table edge to double tap tank side armor? Do you think this might be viable in the new rules set?

Tank: Vets pop out, pop the twin linked order (if possible) and vape tank with 3x melta. Same with STs on Devastators using rapid fire order. Obvious, but scary.

BoxANT wrote:Give them S8 and they can threaten even AV14.

Am I the only one that thinks that S8 is practically useless vs AV14? If AV14 is a problem, you need lascannons or a Vanq/Demolisher, all of which are better AT for the points. I am imagining what sort of AT you would need against another IG or any list with 3x AV14 transports.

Plus until someone confirms that heavy weapon squads are 10 men, you would need a LD check at LD7 to give the squad an order.

I really think the russ and demolisher were over priced for 5th ed. Sure, cannons are cool but armor 10/11 is pure trash when they are being assaulted in turn 2-3. Now we get rules that make them more shooty but ignore the obvious weakness of the units. a rear value of 12 would have been better than lumbering beheamouth.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:I think that merging squads must be a consideration when building a list. What about an "assault" platoon of 3-4 squads with specials only? Let's say we merge two squads with melta, and two with flamers or heck, even GL for that price, add a commissar with PF to both 20 strong units, and add the command squad to wherever we see fit. Round out with a stationary platoon with a few support squads as a firebase, and I think it could work quite well.

I wonder when you can join and split platoons with these rules...2 SWS squads with 3 Meltas each, joined up in a Valk to delivery them to go tank killing. Granted, 6 meltas is overkill for tank killing when you can only fire on one target or the other, but if you can split after you drop, back to 2 units of 3 meltas each behind enemy lines could be useful. Or give them 3 Plasma each and go marine hunting. Welcome back, plasma spam!

Pretty sure you only merge infantry squads, and its at deployment, you can't merge/split it during the game.

Mm. That's what I thought. Still, a 6-plasma gun squad wouldn't suck vs. marines.

Hmm, some thoughts:

If the heavy weapon prices are are really HB/AC: 10, ML:15, LC:20 than expect eBay to be flooded with Missile Launcher teams. As a unit that's not even that good in apocolypse (where it's flexibility doesn't really help), I can't see too much reason to field it. Now, Autocannons and Lascannons will rule the day.

I know that HBMC holds that HBs and ACs do different things, but for the same price the AC does more things than the HB, and can do almost everything the HB can to make the discussion pretty silly. The way I see it, if we cant get ACs on chimeras, then infantry squads will probably be half AC, half LC. There will be plenty of HBs on russes, chimeras, etc, and even lasguns do the job of HBs.

I've changed my mind on Chimeras. 55pts with ML/HB and AV 12 is simply a good buy, especially if the fire port thing is true.

While Ogryn and RR nerfs are bummers, it's important to remember that you dont' need HtH counter assault in 5th edition: a chimera full of flamers does the job as well.

One nice aspect of the LRBT squadrons is that it allows for the lower priced, but non-AP3 tanks to shine. Things like Griffons are great, but when competing for 3 heavy support slots with LRBTs lost out a lot of the time. Now, you can take them and still spam russes.

My current take on this codex is cautious optimism. I think that as a player with a "IG is about men and guns and tanks" mentality, I'm well suited to prosper with it. I have 28 rough riders and 48 storm troopers and 5 ogryn that may not see the table much in competitive games, but the core of my army, the platoons and tanks look to be pretty good.

In general and as a whole, I'm somewhat satisfied. I suspect I will make use of Veterans (quite possibly with the Grenadiers option) and Penal squads (a no-brainer for someone who runs a Penal regiment army).

I'm somewhat concerned over Strom Troopers not being good enough, but in my experience, a unit that wins the game is worth whatever it cost to field in that game. And the Valkyrie's power to reach out and touch someone cannot be overstated, especially compared to the rather un-energetic Imperial Guard army as a whole.

And say what you like about their points cost, at least Ogryns are durable now. I will be fielding them in the future, probably four or five at 1000pts, possibly with a commissar. For Apocalypse, I'll pull out all the stops and take the 290-point maximum squad, with whatever crazy IC I can find. Probably Commissar Yarrick.

So how's this for a curve ball: 2 separate posters who seem to have seen the codex say Platoon HQ's can also merge with Infantry squads. Since a Platoon HQ has a FNP medic...

FNP Zerg IG.

Great! We've named our first archetype a month before release!

ubermosher wrote:FNP Zerg IG.

It'll help against Heavy Bolters, Bolters, and Pulse Rifles at least, right?

I buy that rumor, if only because I don't think it's that strong. I mean, how often do IG players lose squads in shooting? The dangerous time for guard is getting run down in combat, not getting shot.

I think I remember someone saying you can't merge CHQs with Squads, Squads are the ONLY thing that can be merged IIRC.

poor poor rough riders . I was very optimistic up till the death of the hunting lance, hopefully this rumor proves false.

Dexy wrote:I think I remember someone saying you can't merge CHQs with Squads, Squads are the ONLY thing that can be merged IIRC.

Whole buncha rumours seem to say that the Platoon HQs can be merged, and can buy medics as well.

I'm sure there's some sort of caveat for the medi-pack though, to prevent 54 FNP Guardsmen...

On a side note, can you imagine this unit going to ground with the Order that gives them +1 to their cover save whilst in a building? Hardest unit to crack... EVER!

Such a bad tactic, but it'd be so much fun to watch someone tear their hair out trying to kill measly little guardsmen.

Let's look at a couple squad builds:

10 IG w/ Las/Plas
- as-is 60+25+10 = 95 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+20+15 = 85
10 pts saved, which is a decent trade for losing Deep Strike.

10 IG w/ ML/Plas
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+15+15 = 80
5 pts saved, which is definitely not worth losing Deep Strike.


Now look at GW's newly-preferred build:

10 IG w/ AC/Melta
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+10+10 = 70
a whopping 15 pts saved... Nuff said.

Spiking Plasma by 5 pts (for no good reason), and giving 5 pts back on Autocannon makes the new default build very obvious.

Good analysis. Are grenade launchers 8 pts still, or do they go up to 10pts?

The spike in plasma makes sense if the squads can triple tap with orders. If not, I really don't get it, but I think it makes sense that a plasma is better than melta for IG.