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No, my Rough Riders!

I've tried to stay positive about this Codex, but that just went too far!

Every time a guard player stays positive, GW changes another unit to make it horrible. The nerfs will continue until the morale of IG players everywhere is broken.

But seriously, I want to believe that the new book will be alright, but it gets harder and harder to.

ph34r wrote:Every time a guard player stays positive, GW changes another unit to make it horrible. The nerfs will continue until the morale of IG players everywhere is broken.

But seriously, I want to believe that the new book will be alright, but it gets harder and harder to.

I have every confidence that an infantry/armor gunline will still be a perfectly viable army, even slightly stronger than before. Mechanized infantry also seems to be improved. The core still seems strong and there are enough good options scattered about to make a good army. I just am disappointed that one of the most diverse armies in the 40k setting is having so many previously valid options quashed.

Other than Drop Troopers, what's really been squashed?

Wow. I hate orders. Hate em. They make vox-casters manditory becuse if you fail a ld test to take an order you can't issue any more. Yet another blow to the savings we got on the guardsmen! They sure as sure had better confer the LD of the commanding officer as well.

I believe the rumor was that you only "critical fail" and have to stop issuing orders if you get a double 1 on the ld test. However I agree that voxes will be pretty much mandatory.

ph34r wrote:I believe the rumor was that you only "critical fail" and have to stop issuing orders if you get a double 1 on the ld test. However I agree that voxes will be pretty much mandatory.

Double 6s, you mean. I believe that Double 1s is a "critical success," that allowed you to issue an additional order.

Oh, right, got that mixed up. I never heard about the critical success thing, that is cool.

Maybe I read it somewhere else... I clearly read (although it's still suspect) that if an officer fails then no more. if 2x 6's are rooled the squad does nothing for the turn as well.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Other than Drop Troopers, what's really been squashed?

Some people liked to mass stormtroopers. You can't get six units of those anymore even if you want to. Having a little something for counterassault was pretty popular, and there were even a few guys crazy enough to run assaulty guard. I know a guy who has both Ogryns and Rough Riders, marvelous conversions both. It's still possible to use both units (unless you converted rough riders without lances) but neither is as competitive as before. If anyone was crazy enough to run with warrior weapons they can't do that anymore. Massed light infantry is gone. That's all I can think of at the moment.

I think the summary i read for orders was something like:

Unit receiving order rolls snake eyes: executes order and can receive another order

Unit receiving order passes leadership: executes order
Unit receiving order fails leadership: unit doesn't execute order, acts normally
Unit receiving order rolls 12: unit does nothing for the turn (confused, I guess)

Glad I never got around to finishing those rough rider conversions.

Drop troopers, ogryns, mass stormtroopers, camo or carapace infantry, rough riders, and commissars seem to be squashed.
That reminds me, do we know anything about Enginseers? They are my favorite "specialist" unit, I am hoping they weathered the storm.

Haven't seen any of the Warseer discussion on Veterans carried over here. They are saying:

Veteran Squads
10 for 80pts. Lasgun (Las Pistol &CCW for Sergeant) or Shotgun, Defensive Grenades
May take 3 special weapons, 2 Vets can form a HW team. May take Camo Cloaks
May purchase a squad speciality for 30pts (this doesn’t change weapon options):
Demolitions – Grants the squad Melta Bombs and 1 demo charge
Reconnaisance – Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Grenadiers – Carapace Armour, no Camo Cloaks

Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

Thirty points for upgrades seems like a bit much considering what the cost of weapons will be.

ubermosher wrote:I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

If he bleeds, we can kill him.

Ok, for Vets, that would mean 140 points for an Infiltrating 3 Melta unit. It's about 25 points more than what it is now for no actual gain, and that's assuming that their Meltaguns are 10 points each and not inflated to 15 because of their BS4.

And Guardsmen went down to 4 points each, but Vets stayed at 8? They're not worth twice the fething cost of a Guardsmen without Infiltrate. Oh wait, let me guess, they've got Frags and Kraks as standard, which "makes up for it".

I'll be the first person to say that the 5-man H-Vet Squad w/3 Meltaguns and Drop Troops was abusive (but we used it because we needed it), but a nerf like this is idiotic. 140 points (assumed) for 10 T3 wounds? A 17% price increase for nothing.

Hardened vets do look halfway decent. I wonder why they got bumped out of elites. The organization of IG troops other than infantry platoons is a mystery to me. Is the infantry platoon even going to be compulsory? If it isn't there could be a way to make a backdoor Tanith army or Savlar chem dogs.

Oh, but what does camo cost.

Maybe they'll get targeters or something. Also keep in mind, there's probably a slight cost boost for orders.


I'm guessing they have some sort of special rule or equipment piece to make them more effective for the cost.

I think the fact that both Vets and Heavy Weapon squads are *scoring* units is being overlooked in importance.

I can't tell you how many times I have wished that my HW squads where scoring.


A squad of Vets in a Chimera w/ 3 meltas will run 165 points, not a bad deal imo. There is also a rumor that Vets will be able to issue orders to themselves.
However, I do think the the "upgrade" should of been 20 points instead of 30.





As for the "special rule" for the Griffion, I heard that they will be able to reroll their scatter dice. If that is true, then I will most likely always field a squad of them

ubermosher wrote:Haven't seen any of the Warseer discussion on Veterans carried over here. They are saying:

Veteran Squads
10 for 80pts. Lasgun (Las Pistol &CCW for Sergeant) or Shotgun, Defensive Grenades
May take 3 special weapons, 2 Vets can form a HW team. May take Camo Cloaks
May purchase a squad speciality for 30pts (this doesn’t change weapon options):
Demolitions – Grants the squad Melta Bombs and 1 demo charge
Reconnaisance – Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Grenadiers – Carapace Armour, no Camo Cloaks

Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

If the specials are +10 points for Plasma or Melta and the Sergeant can buy a Power Sword at +5 points, I can just use this to field my Kasrkins are at semi-reasonable 135 points for the same squad I have now - and about the same stat-line (albeit no AP5 on the Hellgun). The same squad is currently 131 points. +4 points is not a huge deal - especially since the Chimera gets cheaper.

If they have Manstopper rounds, I can use the Hellguns 'counts as' shotguns and they'll actually be more effective than the current bunch.

Plus, Troops and scoring and all that jazz.

Heavy Weapon squads scoring is nice, though there is still no confirmation on how big the squad is, just rumor.

Im not sure the Vanquisher is dead running some numbers, If the tank commander has +1 to armor pen then thats the best AT per point vs AV14 except for 3x Lascannon AT squad with an order(which is questionable in survivability and vox).

Lord Castellan Mik wrote:I hope you didn't take offence Death By Monkeys... I promise you mate, None was meant

No offense taken, mate. I took it in the humor it was made.

Raxmei wrote:The Griffon looks interesting. S6 is a good solid number - wounds T4 on 2+, inflicts instant death on T3 multiwound models, and in a pinch can threaten light armor. Plus it's cheap, 50 points less than the next cheapest pie thrower. I've never experienced the pleasure of launching a multiple barrage so I don't know how good squadronning them might be.

See, at first glance, I'd tend to agree, but then I start thinking about Meqs. Yeah, S6 AP4 will be solid against 4+ save armies, but there are just too many Meqs out there for me to get really excited about it. I mean, against a good opponent playing Meqs, the most you'll get under a pie plate will be 5 guys - I think I'd rather pay that 50 points and get something with AP that will clear out all 5 rather than only killing 2-3 of them.

ubermosher wrote:Haven't seen any of the Warseer discussion on Veterans carried over here. They are saying:

Veteran Squads
10 for 80pts. Lasgun (Las Pistol &CCW for Sergeant) or Shotgun, Defensive Grenades
May take 3 special weapons, 2 Vets can form a HW team. May take Camo Cloaks
May purchase a squad speciality for 30pts (this doesn’t change weapon options):
Demolitions – Grants the squad Melta Bombs and 1 demo charge
Reconnaisance – Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Grenadiers – Carapace Armour, no Camo Cloaks

I'd asked Reds8n about the shotgun issue and was pleased when he replied that Vets could take them. Not that they're any more effective than a lasgun. I mean, in a world where you're given a choice of flashlights or pellet guns, for me it comes down to which will look better modeled up - and shotguns always look cooler. I'm also excited to see that I can still take 3 special weapons. Yeah, I can't take my min-sized 3-melta squad, but that's okay. What with the option to Drop them no longer available, I can't decide whether to pay the 55 to get them a Chimera (which I'll now be able to fire all 3 meltas in a drive-by) or Infiltrate them for 30. That marginal cost of 25 points isn't very much...

The other thing about this is that Adeptus Arbites players will finally have a viable way to field their armies now. Almost makes me sad I sold mine to carmachu years ago.

ubermosher wrote:Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

Hot damn! I was hoping they'd do a play on Blain somehow! "This stuff'll make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me."

I'll probably be running vets in chimeras as troops. maybe even gunline vets w/ carapice will get their chance, I'm glad we have troops choices aside from the frakking infantry platoon, I always hated it being a virtually manditory choice.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

Hot damn! I was hoping they'd do a play on Blain somehow! "This stuff'll make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me."

Harker just became mandatory for cool points

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

Hot damn! I was hoping they'd do a play on Blain somehow! "This stuff'll make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me."

Harker just became mandatory for cool points

QFT. Looks like I'ma gonna have to make my Vets Catachans after all. "Son of a bitch is dug in there like an Alabama tick!" I'd have to model him with a big wad of chaw in his cheek.

Hmm... hadn't considered the scoring part of HW teams. That's an... interesting dynamic. Certainly makes them worth a KP IMO (absurdity of the KP system in general notwithstanding).

Death By Monkeys - Much like how we viewed the Eradicator before the rules for the Nerfhound became apparent, I hold the same views for the relationship between the Griffon and the Colossus.

Now I love the Griffon, always have. I've got a pair of them, and in bigger games I usually put them with my Bombard as a nice 'Heavy Mortar Battery'. They've always been wonderful cheap fire support, and the S6 AP4 has carried the day for me a few times. That's slightly anecdotal, but my point is that the Griffon isn't a bad buy. It's cheap enough to not be a drag if you end up against the wrong target types, and it's still a decent trouble-shooter for hitting things you can't see.

That said, if the Griffon is just S6 AP4 and nothing more, then the Colossus makes the Griffon redundant because you might as well have the AP3 for a few more points.

But, again, that said, if the Griffon ignores cover saves, things shift back in favour of the Griffon and make the Colossus' price tag a waste of time. If both ignore cover saves, or only the Colossus does, then it's academic of course.

BYE

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I can see fielding LRBT's and Eradicators in Squadrons of 2

and then having Autocannon or Lascannon line units in platoons.

I agree that Russ Squadrons should be paired for best effect with direct-fire Ordnance.

I think Chimeras are going to be the best platform for single Autocannon, with Sentinels running a close second. But Sentinels can take better guns, whereas Chimeras can't.

I think Platoons should seriously consider MLs. Especially if planning to merge up. Massed ML fire is OK when firing Frag, whereas massed Lascannon / Autocannon for Anti-Tank probably isn't so good because it probably wastes shots.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I can see fielding LRBT's and Eradicators in Squadrons of 2

and then having Autocannon or Lascannon line units in platoons.

I agree that Russ Squadrons should be paired for best effect with direct-fire Ordnance.

I think Chimeras are going to be the best platform for single Autocannon, with Sentinels running a close second. But Sentinels can take better guns, whereas Chimeras can't.

I think Platoons should seriously consider MLs. Especially if planning to merge up. Massed ML fire is OK when firing Frag, whereas massed Lascannon / Autocannon for Anti-Tank probably isn't so good because it probably wastes shots.

If we have to choose between 10 point Autocannons and 15 point Missile Launchers, I am going to have a hard time *ever* fielding Missile Launchers...
Honestly, I don't know if I will even take HW in Infantry Squads.


Personally, assuming we get an order that adds +1 AV pen, I plan on taking 2 HW squads of triple Lascannons and parking them near my HQ. Six Str10 shots a turn will go a long way against enemy armor.


I just wish the order that gave TL *and* +1 AV pen was true That would make me the happiest guardsman.


As for Sentinels, i'm either going to field 35pt multilasers or heavy sentinels with PC (assuming they're not over 65 points, which judging by the trend, they will be...).

BoxANT wrote:If we have to choose between 10 point Autocannons and 15 point Missile Launchers, I am going to have a hard time *ever* fielding Missile Launchers...

My thoughts exactly. Autocannons were better when they had the same cost as ML's. But five points less? Easily the best weapon the Guard can get.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BoxANT wrote:If we have to choose between 10 point Autocannons and 15 point Missile Launchers, I am going to have a hard time *ever* fielding Missile Launchers...

My thoughts exactly. Autocannons were better when they had the same cost as ML's. But five points less? Easily the best weapon the Guard can get.

And considering that a HW squad can get 3 autocannons for 75 points.

Give them the TL order and they could completely destroy light armor or put a lot of wounds on Monsters.

Give them S8 and they can threaten even AV14.


This codex is going to the all about Autocannons, and perhaps even (gasp) Grenade Launchers.
A 65 point GL/AC squad might is actually looking pretty nice (or perhaps Flamer/AC for the hell of it).

I think I'll be saving my Plasma for SWS, so I can maximize the the effect of the extra short order (again, assuming it effects plasma...).
Or perhaps a few Plasmaguns in command squads w/ a medic (FNP) would be nice...

BoxANT wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think Platoons should seriously consider MLs.

If we have to choose between 10 point Autocannons and 15 point Missile Launchers, I am going to have a hard time *ever* fielding Missile Launchers...

What?

Crap.

MLs are going to cost more tha Autocannon?!?

ML and Autocannon are nearly identical in effectiveness, they should cost the same at +10.

It seems to me with Guardmen are getting screwed on the Heavy and Special weapons costs that GW might have just have left Guardsmen alone...