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I just meant order like, in the way that it can help, it doesn't really hurt, but that it isn't this drastic uber rule, but at the same time isn't automatic.

I think the only way GW would have some sort of rule like what you're talking about JohnhwangDD is if their is a noticable downside.

Well, auto-pass means that they'll take No Retreat wounds, while auto-fail means they could get run down. That's penalty enough.

I just meant more like a big LD hit when they are without the synapse creature.

aka_mythos wrote:...I think the problem with Carnifex vs. Biovore is that by making the Carnifex have shooty options they overshadowed the Biovores main advantage over the other it.

If we are talking about Gun Fexes (which were your typical heavies back in 4rth), then not really. 3rd edition carnifexs were actually more shooty in that their Big guns were not Twin Linked. Remember when Carnifexes got 4 venom cannon shots, Peperidge Farms remembers. 4th just made Carnifex's more survivable with the extra cheap wound. Dakkafexes were allocated to the elite slot and didn't even compete with Biovores.

IMO, you saw Heavies being filled only by Carnifexes because they were the only competitive option available. Biovores just got beaten with the stupid bat back in 4rth:

Biovores: Heah, I had 3 independant shots and would hit at least once
Stupid Bat: Now you either hit or miss entirely and even if you do hit at least one barage template is going to displaced
Biovores: Heah, I had large blast templates
Stupid Bat: Now you have small blast templates
Biovores: Heah, I deployed independantly
Stupid Bat: Now your together, the better to get shot at and forced off the table
Biovores: Heah, I had leadership 10
Stupid Bat: Now you have 5 and can't lurk...see that numbnuts, I just denied you the only benefit of your new codex
Stupid Bat: Oh and in 5th I took away hiding and made your mines bleed KP...eat gak and die mofo
Biovores: Nobody loves me anymore

Back in 3rd, Biovores were good and did compete with gunfexes. in 4rth and so far in 5th, Biovores aren't competitive because they suck and make IG mortors look good. They are practically useless and are easily outshined by similar units in other armies

Big LD hit? Non-fearless/synapse 'nids are already the lowest leadership units in the game, tied with Ork Gretchin and IG Conscripts. If you want that to be lower, you might as well make them autofail everything out of synapse... :p

ravenors and trygon is going to be the new cool thing backed up with carnifexs.

I didn't necessarily mean LD getting knocked down, just maybe something like servitors mindlock or the painfully random workings of chaos dreadnoughts after some LD test.

Unless guants get some method of achieving a higher leadership coupled with Stubborn, I just don't see the possibility of a swarm army. As is they just die to fast in CC due to fearless wounds.

You mean...like Instictive Behaviour?

Redemption wrote:You mean...like Instictive Behaviour?

YES!!!

That was *great*.

IB doesn't give "stubborn" or increases to leadership, it gives "fearless". "Fearless" was a boon in CC back in 3rd and 4rth. Now "Fearless" carries a hefty liability, which results in guants imploding in on themselves.

He means something that allows them to take a leadership test when failing CC instead of just automatically taking a bunch of saves and losing even more gaunts. Taking a LD test would allow the gaunts to stay in the fight without losing any more models.

Ah, that was to Mythos' leadership thingy, not the swarmy army stubborness you suggested.

But I think a 'nid swarm army should still have some synapse creatures for control (albeit the smaller ones, like warriors, broodlords & zoanthropes), that's just how 'nids roll.

It would probably work better if they just replaced Fearless with LD 10 stubborn for being in synapse similar to what Wyomingfox suggested.

Thats kinda what I meant but I think it could be better.

gorgon wrote:Even if Zoeys weren't 1-3, the real issue is that Zoeys aren't truly competitive with Carnifexes. Nor are Biovores.

Re: Warriors, we'll see. They've flirted with being good at times (early 4th edition, when they were classified as Beasts being one of them), but they've never had rules on par with the models. And I've just about given up on GW ever getting Lictors right. They haven't done what they're supposed to do since 2nd edition.

By the way, according to posters on Warpshadow, Phil K. (who isn't the author, as we guessed) confirmed at the German GD that there will be four new units, and one of them will dwarf the Carnifex. The last one seems like an obvious nod to the Trygon. But I'm scratching my head on the others. Four new boxed sets seems like too many...so are they new blisters? Or do they represent parsing of existing units (say separate list entries for CC Carnifexes and HS Gunfexes) ?

Perhaps one of them might be an HQ unit similar to the Broodlord.... something that fits into a unit and gives a bonus... maybe something for Hormagaunts/Termagaunts.... something comparable to a Veteran Sergeant in SM, where it would have some sort of Synapse, or just drop the chance of failing a Ld test...

If it is the Trygon (I think we can play the odds), then maybe it'll mark the return of Fast Attack units in a 'Nid players army. I don't remember the last time that I saw gargoyles in a list. Raveners, yes... but next to never for gargoyles.

Its a 50/50 split between Gargoyles and Raveners both will get new models (probably) but only one will get well written rules.

Gargoyles will get new models - they're horrible metal models on flight stands that you will likely need bunches of. Like the Giant Eagles and Terradons and Pegasus Knights, they'll go to plastic.

Yeah, that's the thing. If Gargs get a plastic kit (and I think that's very possible), that's a plastic kit slot not allocated to the four.

Oh, the poster on Warpshadow also said we'll see the return of special characters (OOE, etc.), although it doesn't sound like Phil K. was clear if they are among the four. The post kinda made it sound like they aren't, but I guess we'll have to wait for some more concrete info.

All this talk of the four is getting a little BSG.

At this point, there are only so many kits that GW can convert to plastic:

- Hive Tyrant -- this is a no-brainer, as GW wants all core HQ & Troops as plastic.

- Gargoyles -- this is the other no-brainer, as they are swarmy and numbers.

- Trygon -- this is an awesome new kit with a lot of possilbity, but it's hard to say where it appears in the FOC. Due to size, it's probably best as a Heavy, but heavy is overloaded already, unless the Carnifex moves from Heavy to Elite... The Tunneler DS points towards Fast, but new Gargoyles take the Fast spot. As a spearhead unit, it makes a great Elite. The out-of-the-box possibility would be as "Dedicated Transport" attached to any infantry Brood, forcing the Brood into Reserves, but arriving with the Trygon...


The last choice is among Zoanthrope, Biovore, Ravenors, and Lictor.

Of these, the Zoanthrope has the worst physical balance issues, due to the "tower" design so is a better choice for a plastic model from a playability standpoint. Or just a bigger base...

Lictor looks great as-is, but would be far easier to convert into sneaky if plastic. This could be the "meh, why did they bother?" pick, like the new Daemonettes.

Biovore is a funny-looking model and could use some decent rules, but probably won't get them. It could be the Possessed / Chaos Spawn, with a nice new model, but unimpressive rules.

Ravenors compete with Gargoyles, so are a dark horse pick. They could be a bit bigger, like Warriors, and reared-up like the Red Terror. That'd be neat.

I wonder if they will make HQs have some sort of "brood" benefit, in the same way SM change out Combat Tactics to vary up mundane choices. The increased focus on Special Characters altering the way armies are structured would lend itself to that.

Man, it would be great if they had a Genestealer Magus that let you take IG platoons or Conscripts as Troops.

I think GW should make the Biovore bigger. Its size is a bit of a stay over from when they had to do it in metal. Do it plastic. Make it less large infantry more small vehicle in size. Include piles of spore mines. It'd even be relatively easy for GW to create a variant of some sort and include bits for that. I doubt it would happen, I just think it'd be cool.

Oh yeah I forgot about that tunelling thing of the Trygon. That really pushes it into the Land Raider type role for the army.

IF they do a Trygon, I wonder if it will have the same benefit in DS as does a monlith...doesn't roll on the mishapp table but intead pushes other models out of the way. Kinda like it has now in Apocalypse...unless it hits another guargantuan or war machine.

If its in the standard game its likely to lose gargantuan as it currently appears in Apocalypse, just to keep it simple and requiring only the core rule book.

Simple? Like the change of Valyrie from apoc to 40k?

*shrug* Yep

New plastic boxes will be Trygon, Gargoyles, and 2 different types of gaunt (just a recut of the existing sprues), I reckon. Maybe also a recut of the warriors, especially if they get any new options (I too agree they'll become a hot unit this codex).

Hive Tyrant? - I sure hope so, but even if it came with wings and all gribbly options, would GW sell enough of them? Still, if they can tempt every nid player to buy 1 or 2, I guess that adds up...

Clang wrote:Hive Tyrant? - I sure hope so, but even if it came with wings and all gribbly options, would GW sell enough of them? Still, if they can tempt every nid player to buy 1 or 2, I guess that adds up...

Plastic Hive Tyrant with full options is something that one sculptor (can't remember his name) talked about wanting to do. Considering that Tyrants are the most popular HQ choice for Nid armies and pretty imposing, visually, it doesn't seem so far fetched.

If they change tyranid to be a fast assualting army that can tunnel and attack the same turn that would be awesome.

Vhalyar wrote:

Clang wrote:Hive Tyrant? - I sure hope so, but even if it came with wings and all gribbly options, would GW sell enough of them? Still, if they can tempt every nid player to buy 1 or 2, I guess that adds up...

Plastic Hive Tyrant with full options is something that one sculptor (can't remember his name) talked about wanting to do. Considering that Tyrants are the most popular HQ choice for Nid armies and pretty imposing, visually, it doesn't seem so far fetched.

Juan Diaz.