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Necros wrote:I'd buy that for a dollar!

You'll probably be buying it for a lot more than a dollar, Necros.

Railguns wrote:Tyranids will use small elite forces, subterfuge and assassination teams when it's necessary. Infiltration of genestealer broods is a common" tactic. I'd love to see Swarm-Nids that work, but cutting the list down to just swarm Nids would be a disservice to the army, and cut out many players who would rather re-create Alien or Godzilla rather than Starship Troopers.

As a 'Nid player, I'm a big fan of the swarm approach. To me, nothing's more fun than having a Space Marine player sweat out the prospect of taking out the Warriors and Carnifex that are going to be on his doorstep in two turns, or the Hormies who are going to land on him in one. Having been on both sides of that prospect, I say that swarm armies are a lot more fun to play with/against... it just has a better feel to it.

To me, nothing says 'Nids like a hundred angry gribblies racing forward in reckless abandon.

Janthkin wrote:

Elric of Grans wrote:I would suggest it highly improbable that they would release a Trygon with the Codex. Like with the Stompa, it would be something that would be done as a separate, Apocalypse release.

You're assuming the Trygon remains an Apocabeastie.

I wouldn't be surprised if, like the Valk, he gets some normal 40k rules; something in the Land Raider price range, but still with his tunnelling rules (providing the closest thing 'nids will ever get to a transport).

The Trygon is on the small side for a Gargantuan MC. I like the idea of it as a Land Raider-class uber-MC in regular 40k.

But as I'm more of an Apoc player, I'd rather we get Apoc 2 with rules cleanup for scoring and more cool stuff.

SargesSquad wrote:

Railguns wrote:Tyranids will use small elite forces, subterfuge and assassination teams when it's necessary. Infiltration of genestealer broods is a common" tactic. I'd love to see Swarm-Nids that work, but cutting the list down to just swarm Nids would be a disservice to the army, and cut out many players who would rather re-create Alien or Godzilla rather than Starship Troopers.

As a 'Nid player, I'm a big fan of the swarm approach. To me, nothing's more fun than having a Space Marine player sweat out the prospect of taking out the Warriors and Carnifex that are going to be on his doorstep in two turns, or the Hormies who are going to land on him in one. Having been on both sides of that prospect, I say that swarm armies are a lot more fun to play with/against... it just has a better feel to it.

To me, nothing says 'Nids like a hundred angry gribblies racing forward in reckless abandon.

I'm a fan too, really. It's just that there wouldn't be much of a reason for that to be the only approach. The other recent codexes support multiple play styles so I don't see why they would arbitrarily...oh wait, thats right Arby's writing the codex, and it is a GW product. Well, the IG codex still manages to support a couple of approaches beyond the manhorde.

The Codex will support multiple playstyles.

It will however only support one effective playstyle.

Within a week the new 'Nid Power Build will be found, and it can take its place next to Lash/Oblits, MechVet/ValkVet, Fateweaver/PB/Bloodcrusher, Biker Nobz and Vulcan Marines.

And as Arby's writing it it will be full of lots of really strange restrictions that all exist for no apparent reason. How strange? Well you know how you can only have one Winged Tyrant at the moment because... well... just because? Yeah? Things like that. Only one Carnifex can have a Venom Cannon because of... just because. Only one squad of Genestealers can get Outflank because... umm... yeah just because.

Should be AWESOME!

Janthkin wrote:You're assuming the Trygon remains an Apocabeastie.

I wouldn't be surprised if, like the Valk, he gets some normal 40k rules; something in the Land Raider price range, but still with his tunnelling rules (providing the closest thing 'nids will ever get to a transport).

You are right, I did make that assumption --- intentionally, as I prefer to avoid too much speculation. If they were to turn the Trygon as the Tyranid answer to a mech army, I would be all for it. If they do not, I will still buy one purely because the model looks great.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Codex will support multiple playstyles.

It will however only support one effective playstyle.

Within a week the new 'Nid Power Build will be found, and it can take its place next to Lash/Oblits, MechVet/ValkVet, Fateweaver/PB/Bloodcrusher, Biker Nobz and Vulcan Marines.

And as Arby's writing it it will be full of lots of really strange restrictions that all exist for no apparent reason. How strange? Well you know how you can only have one Winged Tyrant at the moment because... well... just because? Yeah? Things like that. Only one Carnifex can have a Venom Cannon because of... just because. Only one squad of Genestealers can get Outflank because... umm... yeah just because.

Should be AWESOME!

Yup. I know. I just want the sinking feeling to go away.

gorgon wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:"Old school" Carnifexes actually had a pretty hardcore long-range shooting attack. They were beasts at range and in HtH. Then again, this was back in the day when a single Genestealer could give today's special characters a run for their money.

It was a pretty good "gun"...roughly equivalent to a battlecannon, IIRC. The thing was that you tended not to fire it much (unless you have the right biomorph, and even then only once, IIRC) because the Carnifex was *fantastic* as a moving screen. Second ed. Carnifexes -- biomorphed properly -- were one of the toughest units that's existed in any edition of the game.

You had to love the regeneration, 4+ save for every wound at the begining of every round. I once saw a carnifex with 28 (that's -18) wounds stand back up. That would make him 299 pts, so your opponent only got 1 pt for wounding him and had to kill him for the other 2. You could also put a warp field on him for 40 pts for a 2d6 save over str of attack to ignore hits, even vortex gernades and wraithcannons that counted as str 6. Good times.

If there is a Tyranid book coming in February, how do you think GW will advance the background via the stories and time lines and misc codex fluff? I figure at least one new named hive fleet, and I'm obviously hoping for at least a skirmish with the Tau in fluff. Mostly because I want to see how the Shadow in the Warp would affect a non-Warp sensitive race.

Wh , yes, I AM a fluff gamer, how could you tell?

chaplaingrabthar wrote:...do you think GW will advance the background...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:...do you think GW will advance the background...

in the grim darkness of the 40k fluff, there is no advancement

I think nids will come in August ...






...of 2010

H.B.M.C. wrote:

The Unending wrote:All in all i'm optimistic about next nid 'dex

That's because you don't play them. I'm sure those that do are looking forward to having their Genestelaers nerfed, and all their Flyrants and DakkaFexes made illegal.

A little late on that one.

Flyrants were cut down to 1 only in 4rth. With no CC consolidation and their inability to hide, 5th Edition has cut thier effectiveness. Nidzilla as it currently stands is lacks "IT" factor it once enjoyed. Genestealers with the combined nerfs of weaker rending against vehicles, wound allocation, no hiding, no consolidating into CC, and no auto pinning troops in transports, has resulted in them becoming more or less bolter fodder. Fear genestealers, then buy a meer 35 pt rhino, move 7" a turn, fire weapons out the top hatch, and when/if they blow up your tank in CC, pass your easy leadership test and shoot them to hell. 5th edition practically rewards you for getting your transport blown up in CC. As a tyranid player since 3rd edition, I won't cry too hard when they make thier next codex. They might even make Zoes usefull for a change...but I won't hold my breath. Still, I would prefer to see the remaining 3rd edition codex's reworked before they take the Obama hammer to Nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's because you don't play them. I'm sure those that do are looking forward to having their Genestelaers nerfed, and all their Flyrants and DakkaFexes made illegal.

General Grogg wrote:That would be interesting to see all the weeping and gnashing over that.GG

The Unending wrote:But seriously I think GW may (notice the word may) have learned their lesson from Chaos and not take the nerf bat to the Tyranids, but I could see them doing that which will make me a very sad person.

CT GAMER wrote:I bet money they pull the rug out from under the Nidzilla players...

Where have you guys been? Didn't you get the 5th Edition memo from GW? The one that said "feth You Nidzilla" in large bold lettering at the top?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gavvin Quinn wrote:Back to 'Nids....

As has been said before, 'Nids are in serious need of some anti-tank firepower outside of VC/BS on 'Fexes.

Plastic Gargoyles would be nice, but only if they make them worthwhile to take.

Biovore/Sporemine KP rules need to be fixed, even if it is a unit that didn't see much play before the KP snafu.

Units overall need to have point costs lowered. It is a shame when the 'Nid horde can be outnumbered by Imperial Guard and/or Orks.

Biovores were awesome in 3rd edition, then GW took them out back of the wood shed. Now they are the slowed whipping boys of GW.

wyomingfox wrote:Where have you guys been? Didn't you get the 5th Edition memo from GW? The one that said "feth You Nidzilla" in large bold lettering at the top?

That's even worse then, because GW doesn't know this. GW will still be thinking that everyone does 'Zilla lists, so will write the new Codex to balance (ie. invalidate) 'Zilla lists, something that's already been busted by 5th Ed. Net result is even weaker MC's for Tyranids and less of them to use as GW tries to balance (ie. overbalances) something that is no longer a problem.

Hmmm...might have been a unconscious subliminal message on their part...kinda like when I burned the BRB and a ghostly Jervis sprung out screaming "Spend More Money".

I mean, everyone who's trying to be competitive does a Nidzilla list because it's the strongest we have at the moment. That doesn't mean it's unbalanced, though. It's just the only way we have a chance of out-muscling other armies. Any IG list, TH/SS Terminators, Vulcan shooting, Ork Nobz, and any number of other things still bash the hell out of Nidzilla without much of a problem.

I guess all I can do is pray that GW gets this codex right, to some extent. I know that's aking a lot, but they've certainly beefed up IG and SM to a pretty absurd level. Maybe we'll be lucky enough to get at least half that boost.

I would add that the main reason you still see Nidzilla is not because it is competitive but due to a lack of choices:

For elites you have Carnifexes (strangle and dakka) and Death Spitter Warriors ...or CC Warriors and Lictors

For HQ you have Dakka Tyrants with Guard and Death Spitter Warriors ...or CC Warriors and the Brood Lord who for some reason, the HM forgott to give fleet to

For Troops you have genestealers ...or you can handicapp yourself with Hormies and Guants

For Heavies you have Carnifexes...and carnifexes...Sorry, Zoes and Biovores forgott to get off the short bus

For Fast Attack...you don't have Fast Attack

The best part is they are all great at killing infantry...yep infantry is toast...so long as your opponent is gracious enough to stay out of those cheap transports. Want to kill tanks? Then you are pretty much forced to "run" ninja fexes and ninja tyrants at the enemies mobile pill boxes...which still blows, especially in DoW. Killed the tanks in CC...good for you...now assume the position and prepare for your "reward".

So you either go Nidzilla and hope for a hard fought draw against tournement grade mech or you stay home and paint. Maybe once word eventually reachs the Hive Fleet that its once feared armies are getting raped by a collective of smurfs, carebears and my little ponies, it will have the common sense to give its MC fleet or tank busting guns.

I would add that the main reason you still see Nidzilla is not because it is competitive but due to a lack of choices

Agreed 100%. I posted something very similar in another thread, I believe. Far too many Tyranid units just plain suck for one reason or another. The big boys and Genestealers are really the only choices that make sense.

I've been saying this for a while, but it's hardly new. Gaunts are essentially worthless as combat units. They give cover saves to genestealers and hold objectives ONLY if you were kind enough to keep a synapse creature with them and out of the fight contributing to the battle. You're practically punished for using them in combat because unless you spend 15 points per Hormagaunt in a 480 pt squad of t3, AS6+ models they will never, ever kill anything, lose combat, and suffer from fearless wounds, while causing any other creatures to either hope against hope that they can pick up the slack or suffer fearless wounds as well. It totally goes against the "drown your enemies in bodies" approach that Tyranids are supposed to espouse. I liked playing horde nids but it's just torture these days.

Edit: I just thought of Necrons, Monoliths, teleporting out of combat, and misdirecting Decievers. I HATE fighting Necrons with Nids. Unless you can fight and wipe out more units than he has Monoliths you may as well just give up and start over.

I know I'm probably making a mistake but I think GW won't completely screw over the Nids, I mean they've done good with Orks, SM, and IG.

I figure that in typical GW pendulum style, gaunts and Lictors will get a boost, while everything else will receive a slight kick in the carapace

Zoanthrope needs a boost , sort of like IG tank squadrons.
1-3 zoan per heavy slot please! (hmm maybe same for biovores as well )

Don't forget Warriors! It's time for Warriors to shine*, so they'll get new rules to make them better**.


*sell more kits than they have been.
**to sell more!

1-3 zoan per heavy slot please! (hmm maybe same for biovores as well )

That's already how it works...

Don't forget Warriors! It's time for Warriors to shine*, so they'll get new rules to make them better**.


*sell more kits than they have been.
**to sell more!

Fine with me! Whatever the motivation, it's about time Warriors got cool again.

Even if Zoeys weren't 1-3, the real issue is that Zoeys aren't truly competitive with Carnifexes. Nor are Biovores.

Re: Warriors, we'll see. They've flirted with being good at times (early 4th edition, when they were classified as Beasts being one of them), but they've never had rules on par with the models. And I've just about given up on GW ever getting Lictors right. They haven't done what they're supposed to do since 2nd edition.

By the way, according to posters on Warpshadow, Phil K. (who isn't the author, as we guessed) confirmed at the German GD that there will be four new units, and one of them will dwarf the Carnifex. The last one seems like an obvious nod to the Trygon. But I'm scratching my head on the others. Four new boxed sets seems like too many...so are they new blisters? Or do they represent parsing of existing units (say separate list entries for CC Carnifexes and HS Gunfexes) ?

...I think the problem with Carnifex vs. Biovore is that by making the Carnifex have shooty options they overshadowed the Biovores main advantage over the other it. I guess if GW wanted to fix the issue, Carnifexes should be the "battle tanks", with biovores the "artillery" at least in making their roles better defined. The Biovore's weapon should be made less like a Griffon mortar and more like a Bassilisk but not to the same extreme.

gorgon wrote:
By the way, according to posters on Warpshadow, Phil K. (who isn't the author, as we guessed) confirmed at the German GD that there will be four new units, and one of them will dwarf the Carnifex. The last one seems like an obvious nod to the Trygon. But I'm scratching my head on the others. Four new boxed sets seems like too many...so are they new blisters? Or do they represent parsing of existing units (say separate list entries for CC Carnifexes and HS Gunfexes) ?

I think the trygon has been pointed at so much that any attempt by GW to say it isn't will be met with the same ire as the Space Hulk debacle.

Four boxed set doesn't necessarily mean new units. I'm guessing Trygon, Gargoyles, with either Ravenors and/or Lictor. Kinda one big "tank" kit, one squad sized kit, one larger model squad kit, one IC kit.

@aka: I agree. Right now, the Carnfiex does everything and too well. I think it'd be nice if GW spread the roles around a bit:
- Warrior = BS4 Heavy ranged fire support
- Carnifex = HtH wrecker
- Biovore = Griffon (large, indirect) barrage
- Zoey = Plasma Cannon / Multi-melta "sniper"

Carnifex should be the dreadnought of the army - give them limited shooting weapons eg no BS or VC.

I don't think carnifex's will be nerfed simple because they cost 45 dollars each and GW is making a ton of money having them be both elites and heavy support.

as for the new units i hope its a primach that would be epic, and they bring back the genestealer hybrids.

i think ravenors are going to be a lot better because of the trygon

Or that. I just mean GW let the carnifex do everything, so everyone only needed to buy carnifexes. I think its fine that it has ranged combat options they just can't be so much a "no brainer". It will be hard for GW to push the Carnifex back in the direction of HtH with the Trygon coming out. I think the carnifex will be the big nerfed unit that people complain about when GW redoes the codex, like stormtroopers were for IG. They will be nerfed indirectly, they won't be nerfed because GW wants them weaker or sell less. They'll be nerfed by virtue of GW giving tyranid players the trygon in such a way that it is overly good for it price.

I think just the introduction of the Trygon will push the list in a more HTH direction. It will be beefier than a carnifex and will likely be a Heavy Support choice. So Nidzilla will become close combat elites and close combat heavy supports. My worry is that in an attempt to make it more appealing they try to make the trygon do more. A shooty trygon would just break things.

I think GW is going to try to inject some rule to promote the use of basic infantry units. Playing around with synapse creatures and making it a bit of a orders system seems very likely.

aka_mythos wrote:I think GW is going to try to inject some rule to promote the use of basic infantry units. Playing around with synapse creatures and making it a bit of a orders system seems very likely.

Orders don't make sense, but Idomitable Will, to automatically pass or fail a Ld test wthin Synapse range would work pretty well...