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iproxtaco wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:5th part: Doesn't matter, a ship rolling upside down or to it's side is nothing in space.

When did the laws of physics stop working in space?

Every fluff situation has said that turning big battle ships is quite tedious.

If a several mile long ship turns at high speeds... it won't end well, gravity or not it still has a centre of mass and stuff will be sent flying.

Example - Vandred's maneuver in Soul Hunter. The crew thought it would be stupid, and were left throwing up on the floor after it. It caused hull stress and incapacitated the crew. Good damn job.

The artificial gravity failed. Your point? The ship was falling apart to begin with.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Mass Drivers can be utilized as weapons. There's research going on right now about it, with the main objective being orbital mass drivers that will be able to hit targets on the Earth's surface.

Actually Mass Driver research is being done with the goal of launching spacecraft.

Railguns are being tested as weapons.

Coilguns (MD cousins, still not MD tho) are being tested as weapons.

MD are not so much being thought of as weapons. Anything that can propel something that fast could be used as a weapon, it just isn't the primary purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

I'm going to pull one part out for you.

Mass Drivers as Weapons wrote:Small to moderate size high-acceleration electromagnetic projectile launchers are currently undergoing active research by the military for use as ground-based or ship-based weapons (most often railguns but coilguns in some cases). On larger scale than weapons currently near deployment but sometimes suggested in long-range future projections, a sufficiently high velocity linear motor, a mass driver, could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery (or, if built on the Moon or in orbit, used to attack a location on Earth's surface).[22][23][24]

iproxtaco wrote:Those are kind of flimsy excuses to their obvious technological inferiority in certain areas.
The third point is completely and utterly wrong though.

They aren't excuses. They can go into the warp at will, they simply have to go in for short periods of time since they have neither navigators, something completely and entirely useful for any other kind of warp travel, or the astronomicon, something similarly important.

Why, praytell, would they build psy technology if it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever to a race of non-psykers?

And the third point is entirely correct. Read the HH, fanboy.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Those are kind of flimsy excuses to their obvious technological inferiority in certain areas.
The third point is completely and utterly wrong though.

They aren't excuses. They can go into the warp at will, they simply have to go in for short periods of time since they have neither navigators, something completely and entirely useful for any other kind of warp travel, or the astronomicon, something similarly important.

Actually, they can't go into the Warp. They "skim" the edges of it.

Why, praytell, would they build psy technology if it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever to a race of non-psykers?

You do know that they count an entire race of Psykers under their dominion, right? The Nicassar ring a bell?

And the third point is entirely correct. Read the HH, fanboy.

I'd suggest you cite a source. The only hints we've seen of such a thing are visions of madmen or the Ruinous Powers manipulating the Primarchs.

Kanluwen wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

I'm going to pull one part out for you.

Mass Drivers as Weapons wrote:Small to moderate size high-acceleration electromagnetic projectile launchers are currently undergoing active research by the military for use as ground-based or ship-based weapons (most often railguns but coilguns in some cases). On larger scale than weapons currently near deployment but sometimes suggested in long-range future projections, a sufficiently high velocity linear motor, a mass driver, could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery (or, if built on the Moon or in orbit, used to attack a location on Earth's surface).[22][23][24]

could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery

In principle. A kitchen knife could be a weapon in principle, doesn't change the fact it's a tool, not a weapon.

It is being investigated by the U.S. Military because they are determined not to let a theoretical weapon be researched by their enemies before them. It is caution, nothing more.

My point still stands. They are not weapons. They are meant for catapulting objects into the void.

Railguns are weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Those are kind of flimsy excuses to their obvious technological inferiority in certain areas.
The third point is completely and utterly wrong though.

They aren't excuses. They can go into the warp at will, they simply have to go in for short periods of time since they have neither navigators, something completely and entirely useful for any other kind of warp travel, or the astronomicon, something similarly important.

Actually, they can't go into the Warp. They "skim" the edges of it.

Why, praytell, would they build psy technology if it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever to a race of non-psykers?

You do know that they count an entire race of Psykers under their dominion, right? The Nicassar ring a bell?

And the third point is entirely correct. Read the HH, fanboy.

I'd suggest you cite a source. The only hints we've seen of such a thing are visions of madmen or the Ruinous Powers manipulating the Primarchs.

1. Exactly. they skim into it. Their ships leave realspace and enter the shallow waters of the warp, then re-emerge.

2. The Nicassar aren't Tau. They have their own psychoactive technology, but, like the kroot, are highly autonomous. Nicassar technology and Tau technology are different.

3. "Daemons only tell the truth when no one will believe them" You're so dead set I see no point in trying to sway you.

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Once again, Imperial fanboys gettin all worked up because the Tau dunk on them.

Maybe someday the Imperium will have, you know, like 1 conquered Tau world to brag about, that wasn't just a world they lost then reclaimed. Until then, I think the Tau are sitting pretty fine on the multiple SYSTEMS they have stolen from the terribaddies known as the Imperium.

Whats better is that there are Marines in Dreadnoughts older then the Tau race!

As for the OP, The Tau have wiped out a Titan before, believe it was a warhound on Taros, though I want to say during the DGC they killed one aswell.

At any rate, the Tau didn't really have to do anything substantial to bring the Titan down. A retro-fitted Tiger Shark isn't a galaxy shattering innovation, well, maybe to the Imperial witch doctors it is, but to the Tau it's simply putting piece "a" into slot "a" and killing a baddie. What's alarming, is that such a young race fought such an old race and found a way to smash the face off some of their best technology with relative ease. That is, unless someone wants to explain the difficulty in pressing the red button in a cockpit of a fighter bomber.

Lol. Do you always go on these satirical rants when you feel your faction is threatened by opposing fans? I find you to be massively hypocritical in nearly every thread you post in. First you start out ok, probably some at least reasoned comment, about the Tau obviously, but it always degenerates into this unbridled fanboy ranting. Face it, your faction is small and pointless, its victories are small and insignificant, no matter how you paint it. The victories of the Hrud and other such minor threats exceed that of the Tau. Have fun feebly frog hopping your way to eventual destruction.

A rant?

Unbridled fanboy ranting?

Did I say something false? If so I'll recant, until then hater... you just keep hatin!

fyi - Comparing Tau tech to human present day tech is a fail. I'd say stick to sci-fi in universe or nothing at all. If a Bolter is described as being stronger then a lasgun in 40K real life science is worthless. Fluff > Real life comparisons. Same goes for Railguns, Lascannons, pulse rifles etc

If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.

Whoa!

Rule #1 violations... so many of them...

Repeat this phrase "Toy Soldiers.... they are just toy soldiers!"

Seriously - too many Mod Alerts about this thread - everyone needs to calm down.

nomotog wrote:
If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.

Are you referring to 3rd ed? I just pull out my 4th ed Tau dex and there's nothing of the sort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:Whoa!

Rule #1 violations... so many of them...

Repeat this phrase "Toy Soldiers.... they are just toy soldiers!"

Seriously - too many Mod Alerts about this thread - everyone needs to calm down.

sry

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:
If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.

Are you referring to 3rd ed? I just pull out my 4th ed Tau dex and there's nothing of the sort.

4 ed, 2008 printing, page 14, bottom left, in the little box. It's a quote from Major Kane, Mordant 607 Heavy armored regiment. It might be a sticking point that it dosen't call the weapon a rail gun, but is says it was on a light walker and all the other light walker weapons are energy weapons or explosives that would have split open the hull. (outside of kroot, the rail gun is the only solid shot weapon the tau have.)

Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.

I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.

Yeah, because you know its not like the Imperium hasn't been able to hide airbases from sensor sweeps in Double Eagle. Granted they were small, but the Heretic forces were able to hide massive MOBILE land-based aircraft carriers from them either in the same book... If the Imperium/Renegades can do it, then the Tau sure as hell can given that they have a bunch of units with mobile stealth field generators.

Tau railguns are orders of magnitude greater than ours, as seen in the fact that in SS, a round that had hit a rock left visible ripples through the massive boulder and cracked it in half, demonstrating their superiority to lascannons. Then step that up to a heavy railgun so massive mantas use them for space combat, and you see why it WOULD make it spectacularly explode.

If you read the fluff piece that Kanluwen posted from Taros, it DID explode as the shot penetrated the armor.

im2randomghgh wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Pardon my ignorance but how many Titans were downed in the book?

A single warhound brought down by markerlights and seeker missiles is the official tally. I swear I recalled reading that another titan was lost to a similar attack on another part of the battlefield or something like that, but I can't find the reference.

Ironically enough, the Imperium was a bigger threat to its own Titans than the Tau, a psycho Inquisitor was ready to exterminatus the planet via virus bomb on the planet (which would have destroyed the titans as well) before anyone could evac.

Titans can seal off all airflow and survive virus bombs. Read the HH, Istvaan III.http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/150/3223490.page#preview

Really? I always read that the virus pretty much consumed everything that was even remotely semi-organic (I.E. contains carbon) and then set the very atmosphere on fire (which would imply a temperature hotter than any known metal could withstand). I'll take your word for it.

Savage Scars does not count, because every other piece of fluff in regards to the battle of Dal'yth makes no mention of Reavers much less Warlords being around.
Andy freaking Hoare strikes again, clearly.

Yeah, no you can't really disqualify any single book off hand like that, basically you would have to disqualify the entirety of the Horus Heresy as well, since the codecies don't really ever mention the existence of people like Erebus, etc. as well as a majority of the events. Same goes for pretty much any book that covers an event described in a codex.

You know what else is an aircraft's 'armor'?
Not being expected. If the Imperium had any kind of anti-aircraft equipment on the ground--you can bet your sweet blue bottom that the Tigershark would have been shot down.

See my previous post where I calculated the timing of it all. I very much doubt the imperium could have done anything at all about the situation given the miniscule warning period they would have had.

If you say so.

Yeah, because you know, its not like the majority of the Imperiums naval vessels don't have the vast majority of its weapons in fixed mounts along its broadsides, or in the case of a bombardment cannon, on its prow.

That's good for them. Actually, I'd suggest you reread the information about that. It's theorized that the impact will be equivalent to a Tomahawk missile's explosion at a fraction of the cost.

Having taken physics courses and actually run the (unclassified) numbers on the Navy's railgun development as part of a class project (taught by a professor who did some work for the Navy on the system), I can tell you that the theoretical output is very accurate, either that or physics needs to be completely reworked. Its a very basic calculation. Besides that, there is video footage of the much smaller test pieces they have firing at solid chunks of steel and causing rather largish explosions as they punch clean through.

There was no explosion from the impact. There were holes in the hull, that's all.

Read it again

Arial assets didn't survive the attention of the Hydras.
Seems not so awesome, what is brought low by autocannons.

That certainly wasn't the case for the Heretic Air Forces in Double Eagle, Hydra's =/= auto shootdown.

Spoiler:
Hint: They're not. The Imperium has ship-killing weaponry. There's a reason that Abaddon didn't bring the Planet-Killer close to Cadia, and it's not because he was worried the pilot was drunk. One of the most common pieces of ship-killing weaponry is a turbolaser, as in the weaponry that you see mounted on Warhound Titans that kill superheavy tanks. Those "missile silos" that the Raptors spiked on Taros? Ship-killing weaponry.

You're seriously arguing that a weapon that is intended to take down a ship several kilometers long is going to successfully find, fix, track, target, and engage a craft that is 30 meters long and 50 meters wide? Get real. Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbit according to BFG, and you want it to track a miniscule target that is travelling thousands of miles per hour on re-entry?

No, my opinions are worth more than an author who has a well-known bias for the Tau and wrote a book to make them seem far more badass.
There was nothing prior or since Savage Scars to indicate an actual Titan Legion with Reavers and Warlords was present at Dal'yth.

Aside from the 3rd Edition Tau Codex which mentions that titans assaulted Gel'brynn Page60, 3rd edition codex, its like the third word of the first sentence on the page. Hell it even mentions Legio Thanataris by NAME

Until you start actually showing some kind of credibility, you have none.
Railguns are a subcategory of mass driver/kinetic kill weaponry. That's what science says.

You're trying to argue credibility when you clearly show a lack of it? Please get informed before you lose the tiny sliver of it you have left (especially after my previous response).

You mean the Gauss weaponry that isn't meant to be magnetic accelerators? There's a reason the Gauss weaponry employed by Necrons are called Gauss Flayers.

Please open your Necron codex and find the following weapons contained therein: Gauss Blaster, Gauss Cannon, Heavy Gauss Cannon, etc. All of which operate under the same principals.

And 2 Mach is quite slow to us now. Imagine in 38.000 years, were they have fighter that can go 6.000 km without any problem.
I think Imperial AA can get anything at that speed without problem.

Given that a Thunderbolt fighters max speed is 2300 KM/H. Where exactly do you find this magical fighter going Mach 5-6+

Once again, Imperial fanboys gettin all worked up because the Tau dunk on them.

I don't understand it, honestly. Every encounter between the two that has resulted in an Imperial loss (admittedly a rather large proportion) can be explained by a variety of external factors. The Tau have been lucky. Isn't it enough for the Imperial fanboys to know that if the Imperium did turn its full attention at the Tau they would wipe them from the stars? Not like the Tau fanboys are much better though.

I may well be wrong here, but aren't Emperor Titans said to be capable of trading shots with ships in orbit (although I doubt they do it very successfully)? I would also assume that there was a reason that the Tigershark hitting the Warhound on Taros seemed to go fairly close.

No clue, never read that before, although I recall reading that the weapons carried by the largest titans are basically the same as some of the lighter weapons carried by Imperial warships. As for getting close, it may have been to deny enemy AA defenses a chance to respond. If its flying in under the radar and out of sight, nobody is going to know its there until it popped over the ridgeline, as soon as it did that it becomes a VERY big target.

They have, but with an Emperor Titan the Imperium's going to have more resources in the fight and logically more air cover as well as anti-air (aside from that which the Titan itself supplies). An Emperor Titan will also take a lot more hits than the Warhound did; it certainly won't be one pass taking it out.

Agreed.

Well that's just rude.

Yes it is, was it directed as you? Apologies, as the rest of your post in this case seemed rather measured and well thought out.

And in regards to Railguns vs. Mass Drivers, Railguns are a type of mass driver, I don't see what the argument is...

nomotog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:
If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.

Are you referring to 3rd ed? I just pull out my 4th ed Tau dex and there's nothing of the sort.

4 ed, 2008 printing, page 14, bottom left, in the little box. It's a quote from Major Kane, Mordant 607 Heavy armored regiment. It might be a sticking point that it dosen't call the weapon a rail gun, but is says it was on a light walker and all the other light walker weapons are energy weapons or explosives that would have split open the hull. (outside of kroot, the rail gun is the only solid shot weapon the tau have.)

Just saw it o.0 I was looking for a picture. Thanks for pointing it out, I would never have seen it.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.

I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.

Yeah, because you know its not like the Imperium hasn't been able to hide airbases from sensor sweeps in Double Eagle. Granted they were small, but the Heretic forces were able to hide massive MOBILE land-based aircraft carriers from them either in the same book... If the Imperium/Renegades can do it, then the Tau sure as hell can given that they have a bunch of units with mobile stealth field generators.

Seriously?
Those airbases fit a squadron of Thunderbolts and two Lightning Squadrons--and were cramped as all hell. The defense forces, ground crew, and pilots were practically living on top of each other.
Those airbases also were not "hidden from sensors". They were hidden from visual sweeps by camo netting draped over the airfield.

The mass-carriers were carrying fighters and bombers, nothing the size of a freaking Manta. They were also "undetected" because they were at the very edge of the operational range of the Lightning recon variants, and constantly on the move. Prior to the arrival of Marauders in theater, the Imperium had nothing that could make it out that far and actually attack.

The airbases on Taros had multiple Mantas and Orcas, in addition to multiple squadrons of Barracudas and Tiger Sharks. If you're going to try arguing this point more, then I'm going to ask you to produce evidence of "mobile stealth field generators" that are able to hide such a thing. Because if there was, then we'd have stealthed Devilfish, Hammerheads, and Skyrays.

Since we don't--I'm saying it's impossible.

Tau railguns are orders of magnitude greater than ours, as seen in the fact that in SS, a round that had hit a rock left visible ripples through the massive boulder and cracked it in half, demonstrating their superiority to lascannons. Then step that up to a heavy railgun so massive mantas use them for space combat, and you see why it WOULD make it spectacularly explode.

If you read the fluff piece that Kanluwen posted from Taros, it DID explode as the shot penetrated the armor.

Imperial Armour wrote:The Warhounds continually stalked forwards, obliterating anything in their path, along with the Space Marines, now advancing about their feet, the combined force thrust a sword clean through the Tau defences and opened the way onto the Iracunda Isthmus. The Tau rallied, and the arrival of a fresh Hunter Cadre saw the fighting intensify again. This time the Tau would deploy a new weapon. No Imperial Commander had ever encountered this new mark of Tiger Shark before. The aircraft came in fast, skimming the desert so low it kicked up a dust cloud, before climbing over a shallow rise to open fire. Missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings, flaring bright against Warhound Advensis Primaris' void shields. The explosions overpowered the generators which cut out. The following shots from the Tiger Shark's twin railguns struck the Warhound squarely in the hull. With devastating power two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel. Critically wounded, the Warhound staggered backwards under the impacts, tottered and, to the astonishment of all, fell.

Actually no, it doesn't say that the Titan exploded. It said that the shots "tore through the armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel".
It's pretty clearly being used as a descriptor for the shots tearing through the armour, not saying that there was an explosion.

im2randomghgh wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Pardon my ignorance but how many Titans were downed in the book?

A single warhound brought down by markerlights and seeker missiles is the official tally. I swear I recalled reading that another titan was lost to a similar attack on another part of the battlefield or something like that, but I can't find the reference.

Ironically enough, the Imperium was a bigger threat to its own Titans than the Tau, a psycho Inquisitor was ready to exterminatus the planet via virus bomb on the planet (which would have destroyed the titans as well) before anyone could evac.

Titans can seal off all airflow and survive virus bombs. Read the HH, Istvaan III.http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/150/3223490.page#preview

Really? I always read that the virus pretty much consumed everything that was even remotely semi-organic (I.E. contains carbon) and then set the very atmosphere on fire (which would imply a temperature hotter than any known metal could withstand). I'll take your word for it.

Actually, what it has been described as is that it kills everything organic and releases chemicals during the process that essentially turns the atmospheric volatile--and then an orbiting ship fires a round in, effectively "lighting" the world aflame.

Savage Scars does not count, because every other piece of fluff in regards to the battle of Dal'yth makes no mention of Reavers much less Warlords being around.
Andy freaking Hoare strikes again, clearly.

Yeah, no you can't really disqualify any single book off hand like that, basically you would have to disqualify the entirety of the Horus Heresy as well, since the codecies don't really ever mention the existence of people like Erebus, etc. as well as a majority of the events. Same goes for pretty much any book that covers an event described in a codex.

When there's been multiple things mentioning this particular battle, and none having mentioned it before--then I can disqualify it.

You know what else is an aircraft's 'armor'?
Not being expected. If the Imperium had any kind of anti-aircraft equipment on the ground--you can bet your sweet blue bottom that the Tigershark would have been shot down.

See my previous post where I calculated the timing of it all. I very much doubt the imperium could have done anything at all about the situation given the miniscule warning period they would have had.

You do realize the whole reason that it was effective is because it had never been seen before, right?

It even says as much in that excerpt from the book.

If you say so.

Yeah, because you know, its not like the majority of the Imperiums naval vessels don't have the vast majority of its weapons in fixed mounts along its broadsides, or in the case of a bombardment cannon, on its prow.

I'm aware that they have much of the 'heavier' weaponry mounted on the prow. However things like melta torpedoes, lance strikes, et al can be done as broadsides.

That's good for them. Actually, I'd suggest you reread the information about that. It's theorized that the impact will be equivalent to a Tomahawk missile's explosion at a fraction of the cost.

Having taken physics courses and actually run the (unclassified) numbers on the Navy's railgun development as part of a class project (taught by a professor who did some work for the Navy on the system), I can tell you that the theoretical output is very accurate, either that or physics needs to be completely reworked. Its a very basic calculation. Besides that, there is video footage of the much smaller test pieces they have firing at solid chunks of steel and causing rather largish explosions as they punch clean through.

The "cost" part isn't regarding to the cost of the kinetic energy. It's that the "cost" of the projectile is a fraction of a Tomahawk. The theoretical of it is the same impact velocity as a Tomahawk's explosion, but without that messy explosion. The whole reason they're looking at kinetic weaponry is for 'cleaner' kills.

There was no explosion from the impact. There were holes in the hull, that's all.

Read it again

I've read it. I freaking posted it.

Aerial assets didn't survive the attention of the Hydras.
Seems not so awesome, what is brought low by autocannons.

That certainly wasn't the case for the Heretic Air Forces in Double Eagle, Hydra's =/= auto shootdown.

...You mean the Hydras that had practically no ammo, or the Locusts that were shot down by a Leman Russ Exterminator?

Spoiler:
Hint: They're not. The Imperium has ship-killing weaponry. There's a reason that Abaddon didn't bring the Planet-Killer close to Cadia, and it's not because he was worried the pilot was drunk. One of the most common pieces of ship-killing weaponry is a turbolaser, as in the weaponry that you see mounted on Warhound Titans that kill superheavy tanks. Those "missile silos" that the Raptors spiked on Taros? Ship-killing weaponry.

You're seriously arguing that a weapon that is intended to take down a ship several kilometers long is going to successfully find, fix, track, target, and engage a craft that is 30 meters long and 50 meters wide? Get real. Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbit according to BFG, and you want it to track a miniscule target that is travelling thousands of miles per hour on re-entry?

Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbits because anti-orbital weaponry is designed to hit vessels in an anchored orbit. It's also worth mentioning that those "low orbits" are considered by the Imperial Navy to be dangerous.

No, my opinions are worth more than an author who has a well-known bias for the Tau and wrote a book to make them seem far more badass.
There was nothing prior or since Savage Scars to indicate an actual Titan Legion with Reavers and Warlords was present at Dal'yth.

Aside from the 3rd Edition Tau Codex which mentions that titans assaulted Gel'brynn Page60, 3rd edition codex, its like the third word of the first sentence on the page. Hell it even mentions Legio Thanataris by NAME

Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.

All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.

Until you start actually showing some kind of credibility, you have none.
Railguns are a subcategory of mass driver/kinetic kill weaponry. That's what science says.

You're trying to argue credibility when you clearly show a lack of it? Please get informed before you lose the tiny sliver of it you have left (especially after my previous response).

I'm sorry, but you being unable to read my post fully is not my cross to bear.

It's also kind of difficult for me to take it seriously, since the Damocles Gulf Crusade has no freaking consistency in terms of the make-up. None of the FOCs I've seen, published by GW, have Reavers or Warlords on them.

You mean the Gauss weaponry that isn't meant to be magnetic accelerators? There's a reason the Gauss weaponry employed by Necrons are called Gauss Flayers.

Please open your Necron codex and find the following weapons contained therein: Gauss Blaster, Gauss Cannon, Heavy Gauss Cannon, etc. All of which operate under the same principals.

@ the Taros quote, no explosion because GW still hasn't taken their head out of their asses and learned what the Hell a railgun is.

MASS DRIVERS AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

MASS DRIVERS ARE A SUB-TYPE OF COIL/GAUSS GUN, AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT

Kanluwen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.

I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.

Yeah, because you know its not like the Imperium hasn't been able to hide airbases from sensor sweeps in Double Eagle. Granted they were small, but the Heretic forces were able to hide massive MOBILE land-based aircraft carriers from them either in the same book... If the Imperium/Renegades can do it, then the Tau sure as hell can given that they have a bunch of units with mobile stealth field generators.

Seriously?
Those airbases fit a squadron of Thunderbolts and two Lightning Squadrons--and were cramped as all hell. The defense forces, ground crew, and pilots were practically living on top of each other.
Those airbases also were not "hidden from sensors". They were hidden from visual sweeps by camo netting draped over the airfield.

The mass-carriers were carrying fighters and bombers, nothing the size of a freaking Manta. They were also "undetected" because they were at the very edge of the operational range of the Lightning recon variants, and constantly on the move. Prior to the arrival of Marauders in theater, the Imperium had nothing that could make it out that far and actually attack.

The airbases on Taros had multiple Mantas and Orcas, in addition to multiple squadrons of Barracudas and Tiger Sharks. If you're going to try arguing this point more, then I'm going to ask you to produce evidence of "mobile stealth field generators" that are able to hide such a thing. Because if there was, then we'd have stealthed Devilfish, Hammerheads, and Skyrays.

Since we don't--I'm saying it's impossible.

Yeah, because there aren't any apoc formations that allow stealth vehicles or anything... again, please check before making such a statement. I'll even give you a hint: Its on the GW website, and its called the Pathfinder Long Range Infiltration Unit. The stealth field is so powerful that it disguises the devilfish and units that are within 12" of it(not the Stealth USR, but flat out Stealth Fields ala Stealth Suits). Your arguments have more holes in them than swiss cheese sometimes...

As for hiding squadrons, etc. Do you understand how many ships make one up? Last I checked it was something like 12-20 aircraft (plus weapons, ammo, repair crews, fuel, etc. etc.) per squadron. Hiding 3 Squadrons of aircraft in the jungle is no small feat. As for sensors, there must have been some kind of protection, since I doubt that recon aircraft would be flying around with only visual detection equipment in the 41st millenium. As for the mass carriers, surely the Imperial Navy must have had vessels in orbit (fact, it had to in order to get the Imperial Navy reinforcements that arrived to reinforce the Commonwealth Air Forces) that were performing sensor sweeps of the area. Ultimately it took visual detection by a flight of aircraft to discover them. Also worth noting that the bombers described in Double Eagle are Harbinger bombers (or something very similar to it), roughly the size of a Tau Manta if Aeronautica Imperialis is anything to go by. If these carriers are capable of avoiding orbital detection... and they are capable of carrying bombers that large, then a Manta is sure as hell concealable.

Also worth noting is that in Titanicus the chaos titan legion managed to hide a very large portion of its strength from orbital sweep using a giant artificially created dust/thunderstorm.

Actually no, it doesn't say that the Titan exploded. It said that the shots "tore through the armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel".
It's pretty clearly being used as a descriptor for the shots tearing through the armour, not saying that there was an explosion.

Yeah, but that IS what the argument was about. You claimed that the railgun shot did not cause an explosion at all when it struck the titan, I have proven to you that it did. Don't try changing the point of argument.

Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbits because anti-orbital weaponry is designed to hit vessels in an anchored orbit. It's also worth mentioning that those "low orbits" are considered by the Imperial Navy to be dangerous.

Right, so now you want the anti-orbital weaponry designed to hit something in stationary/anchored orbit to hit a target several orders of magnitude smaller traveling at several thousand kilometers per hour. Do you need me to make this any clearer for you?

Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.

All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.

The codex and the book are written by the same person. The titans were always there... WHY ARE YOU ARGUING THE POINT!!!!!?!? By that logic there is nothing saying that there were warhound titans either, for all we know the Codex wanted it to be a friggin formation of Emperor titans...

It's also kind of difficult for me to take it seriously, since the Damocles Gulf Crusade has no freaking consistency in terms of the make-up. None of the FOCs I've seen, published by GW, have Reavers or Warlords on them.

Considering that I've never seen any sort of FOC published by anyone...

I should also add that not every encounter between the two has resulted "in an Imperial loss". How do you think the Imperium got to Dal'yth in the first place?

I never said that they were all losses, just a disproportionate number were.

There were no AA defenses, so that was silly of the Tau to do.

Its not stated that there was or wasn't, just a titan and a formation of Space Marines IIRC. As Space Marines do have their own organic AA capabilities, I don't see why its not reasonable/possible to expect this. In any case, its called precaution. Theres a reason why military aircraft don't fly the same exact routes on their sorties, even in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan where there is no real threat (lesson learned from Bosnia).

im2randomghgh, I do not appreciate that tone of text. It also doesn't help that you are wrong. Railguns are just as much a subtype of mass driver as a coil gun and gauss gun.

im2randomghgh wrote:@ the Taros quote, no explosion because GW still hasn't taken their head out of their asses and learned what the Hell a railgun is.

I think you need to go back to railgun class, because they're called "kinetic weapons" for a reason. They rely primarily upon the mass of the driven projectile to do the damage, with some variants utilizing "fletchette" styled shattering projectiles. That's what the "Submunition" round fired by the Hammerhead is.

MASS DRIVERS AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

MASS DRIVERS ARE A SUB-TYPE OF COIL/GAUSS GUN, AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT

Caps lock does not actually make you right, contrary to popular belief.

I think we all need to realize that, while there are some minor differences between Railguns and Mass Drives, the principals are similer enough.

they both use magnitisim to move solid objects.


if anything, a Railgun is simply a weaponization of Mass Driver technology. Its like the difference between and pressure washer and a flame thrower. both compress liquid and spray it out at high speeds and you could use the 2 liquids in the other machine and it would work. a flamethrower simply has flammable fluid and a ignition source.

a Mass Driver, moves mass with magnitisim. a Railgun moves a mass with magnitisim, with the purpose being the immediate inconviencing of someone you are not on friendly terms with.




the Wikipedia article actually states that Railguns are simply a type of Mass Driver

"Mass drivers as weapons
Small to moderate size high-acceleration electromagnetic projectile launchers are currently undergoing active research by the military for use as ground-based or ship-based weapons (most often railguns but coilguns in some cases). On larger scale than weapons currently near deployment but sometimes suggested in long-range future projections, a sufficiently high velocity linear motor, a mass driver, could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery (or, if built on the Moon or in orbit, used to attack a location on Earth's surface)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

scroll down to "Mass drivers as weapons"


so we could say with confidance that "All Railguns are Mass Drives, but not all Mass Drivers are Railguns"

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.

I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.

Yeah, because you know its not like the Imperium hasn't been able to hide airbases from sensor sweeps in Double Eagle. Granted they were small, but the Heretic forces were able to hide massive MOBILE land-based aircraft carriers from them either in the same book... If the Imperium/Renegades can do it, then the Tau sure as hell can given that they have a bunch of units with mobile stealth field generators.

Seriously?
Those airbases fit a squadron of Thunderbolts and two Lightning Squadrons--and were cramped as all hell. The defense forces, ground crew, and pilots were practically living on top of each other.
Those airbases also were not "hidden from sensors". They were hidden from visual sweeps by camo netting draped over the airfield.

The mass-carriers were carrying fighters and bombers, nothing the size of a freaking Manta. They were also "undetected" because they were at the very edge of the operational range of the Lightning recon variants, and constantly on the move. Prior to the arrival of Marauders in theater, the Imperium had nothing that could make it out that far and actually attack.

The airbases on Taros had multiple Mantas and Orcas, in addition to multiple squadrons of Barracudas and Tiger Sharks. If you're going to try arguing this point more, then I'm going to ask you to produce evidence of "mobile stealth field generators" that are able to hide such a thing. Because if there was, then we'd have stealthed Devilfish, Hammerheads, and Skyrays.

Since we don't--I'm saying it's impossible.

Yeah, because there aren't any apoc formations that allow stealth vehicles or anything... again, please check before making such a statement. I'll even give you a hint: Its on the GW website, and its called the Pathfinder Long Range Infiltration Unit. The stealth field is so powerful that it disguises the devilfish and units that are within 12" of it(not the Stealth USR, but flat out Stealth Fields ala Stealth Suits). Your arguments have more holes in them than swiss cheese...

Because I don't read Tau Apocalypse formations? I bet you don't know that there's a formation for fielding Tarantula Sentry Guns and Sabre Defense Platforms, do ya?!

Oh, by the way--one of the Devilfish is apparently required to give up the transport capacity. That's...uselessly useful, I guess.

As for hiding squadrons, etc. Do you understand how many ships make one up? Last I checked it was something like 12-20 aircraft (plus weapons, ammo, repair crews, fuel, etc. etc.) per squadron. Hiding 3 Squadrons of aircraft in the jungle is no small feat. As for sensors, there must have been some kind of protection, since I doubt that recon aircraft would be flying around with only visual detection equipment in the 41st millenium.

You're assuming that the Blood Pact forces had recon aircraft and ground scanning sensors. We had nothing suggesting such.

As for the mass carriers, surely the Imperial Navy must have had vessels in orbit (fact, it had to in order to get the Imperial Navy reinforcements that arrived to reinforce the Commonwealth Air Forces) that were performing sensor sweeps of the area. Ultimately it took visual detection by a flight of aircraft to discover them. Also worth noting that the bombers described in Double Eagle are Harbinger bombers (or something very similar to it), roughly the size of a Tau Manta if Aeronautica Imperialis is anything to go by. If these carriers are capable of avoiding orbital detection... and they are capable of carrying bombers that large, then a Manta is sure as hell concealable.

They weren't Harbingers being launched from the Mass Carriers. They were Hell Talons and Hell Blades.

Also worth noting is that in Titanicus the chaos titan legion managed to hide a very large portion of its strength from orbital sweep using a giant artificially created dust/thunderstorm.

Considering orbital sweeps apparently are utilizing the Mark I Eyeball for the Imperium--I think that's the issue.

Actually no, it doesn't say that the Titan exploded. It said that the shots "tore through the armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel".
It's pretty clearly being used as a descriptor for the shots tearing through the armour, not saying that there was an explosion.

Yeah, but that IS what the argument was about. You claimed that the railgun shot did not cause an explosion at all when it struck the titan, I have proven to you that it did. Don't try changing the point of argument.

I said that the Titan did not explode.

His statement was that the Titan "exploded". I said it did not.

Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbits because anti-orbital weaponry is designed to hit vessels in an anchored orbit. It's also worth mentioning that those "low orbits" are considered by the Imperial Navy to be dangerous.

Right, so now you want the anti-orbital weaponry designed to hit something in stationary/anchored orbit to hit a target several orders of magnitude smaller traveling at several thousand kilometers per hour. Do you need me to make this any clearer for you?

You don't need to "hit something" when fire from these turbolasers merely passing close can seriously damage Imperial Guard Mass Conveyers or the 'drop cocoons' for the full-sized Battle Titans.
We also don't know the capability of the missiles. They could very well have seeking warheads, which is not beyond the Imperium's grasp despite the supposed technobarbarism.

Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.

All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.

The codex and the book are written by the same person.

Read the cover page of Codex: Tau and Savage Scars again.

Codex: Tau(NOT Tau Empire), where that piece premiered, was written by Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, and Graham McNeill. No sign, at all, of Andy Hoare.

The titans were always there... WHY ARE YOU ARGUING THE POINT!!!!!?!? By that logic there is nothing saying that there were warhound titans either, for all we know the Codex wanted it to be a friggin formation of Emperor titans...

Because you are failing to comprehend what is a simple point.

It says "titans from Legio Thanataris". It does not say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". It's like if I were to say that the Hunter Cadre led an assault on a single bunker--you would be saying "Bwuh?". If I said "Fire Warriors from the Hunter Cadre" did the same thing--you would understand that it is a much different situation.

It's also kind of difficult for me to take it seriously, since the Damocles Gulf Crusade has no freaking consistency in terms of the make-up. None of the FOCs I've seen, published by GW, have Reavers or Warlords on them.

Considering that I've never seen any sort of FOC published by anyone...

I'll see if I can find it, because it's a perfect example of GW stupidity. It had more Space Marines than Imperial Guardsmen present, and was a perfect example of Pete Haines at work.

I should also add that not every encounter between the two has resulted "in an Imperial loss". How do you think the Imperium got to Dal'yth in the first place?

I never said that they were all losses, just a disproportionate number were.

Which is my big beef with the whole thing about the Tau. I have no problem with the Tau winning or being a "power on the rise". It's the way that it keeps happening that I have a problem with. It's clear that GW realizes they screwed the pooch with the Tau, and they have to keep inventing new superweapons to prevent the Tau from being wiped out or to put them on level footing against the Major Players.

It's like watching GI Joe and wondering what new miraculous toy the Joes will pull out to counter Cobra this week.

There were no AA defenses, so that was silly of the Tau to do.

Its not stated that there was or wasn't, just a titan and a formation of Space Marines IIRC. As Space Marines do have their own organic AA capabilities, I don't see why its not reasonable/possible to expect this. In any case, its called precaution. Theres a reason why military aircraft don't fly the same exact routes on their sorties, even in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan where there is no real threat (lesson learned from Bosnia).

The Space Marine AA capabilities are Land Raider Helios and Whirlwind Hyperios.

Land Raider Helioses were not present, so it just leaves Whirlwind Hyperios.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ the Taros quote, no explosion because GW still hasn't taken their head out of their asses and learned what the Hell a railgun is.

I think you need to go back to railgun class, because they're called "kinetic weapons" for a reason. They rely primarily upon the mass of the driven projectile to do the damage, with some variants utilizing "fletchette" styled shattering projectiles. That's what the "Submunition" round fired by the Hammerhead is.

MASS DRIVERS AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

MASS DRIVERS ARE A SUB-TYPE OF COIL/GAUSS GUN, AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT

Caps lock does not actually make you right, contrary to popular belief.

I hope you realize that almost every weapon ever conceived is a kinetic weapon. A club is a kinetic weapon, a modern rifle is a kinetic weapon, a sword is a kinetic weapon. Are they mass drivers too?

And Coil/Gauss gun (same gun, two names) are not a sub-type of mass-driver, a mass driver is a sub-type of coil gun.

A Mass Driver is an over-sized version of a coil/gauss gun, meant for accelerating objects past escape velocity.

A railgun is not a coilgun.

Therefore, a railgun is not a mass driver.

Railguns use a pair of magnetically charged rails which propel an object down it's length. The rails maintain their charge all throughout.

A Coil/Gauss/Mass Driver has a series of electro magnetic coils which use sequential firing to bring the object to speed while using less energy than a railgun, albeit with a smaller result.

Not the same.

And btw caps lock is cruise control for cool.

im2randomghgh wrote: Therefore, a railgun is not a mass driver.

to quote myself just a few posts up

the Wikipedia article actually states that Railguns are simply a type of Mass Driver

"Mass drivers as weapons
Small to moderate size high-acceleration electromagnetic projectile launchers are currently undergoing active research by the military for use as ground-based or ship-based weapons (most often railguns but coilguns in some cases). On larger scale than weapons currently near deployment but sometimes suggested in long-range future projections, a sufficiently high velocity linear motor, a mass driver, could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery (or, if built on the Moon or in orbit, used to attack a location on Earth's surface)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

scroll down to "Mass drivers as weapons"

Mass Drivers ARE NOT RAILGUNS.

Do you know WHY railguns are called railguns? Because they use two rails which are electro magnetically charged. And Because Railguns NEVER use sequential firing.

Mass Drivers, by definition, cannot ever have rails, nor can railguns lack them.

Mass Drivers can never, ever use rails BECAUSE they need to be used in a vacuum.

They are so fundamentally different from railguns this entire argument is silly.

I know it's ugly but this is supposed to be a family tree type thing demonstrating the difference:

im2randomghgh wrote:Mass Drivers ARE NOT RAILGUNS.

Do you know WHY railguns are called railguns? Because they use two rails which are electro magnetically charged. And Because Railguns NEVER use sequential firing.

Mass Drivers, by definition, cannot ever have rails, nor can railguns lack them.

Mass Drivers can never, ever use rails BECAUSE they need to be used in a vacuum.

They are so fundamentally different from railguns this entire argument is silly.

I know it's ugly but this is supposed to be a family tree type thing demonstrating the difference:

What do the coils of a Mass Driver make when they are together?

Electromagnets.

What are the rails of a Railgun made of?

Electromagnets.



and your diagram leads from the generic Mass Driver to the more specific Railgun.

What dose it matter if a rail gun is a mass driver or not? They could call it the woodo do shooty thing. That wouldn't change how it acts and we know how it acts.

nomotog wrote:What dose it matter if a rail gun is a mass driver or not? They could call it the woodo do shooty thing. That wouldn't change how it acts and we know how it acts.

This dude makes more sense than all of you put together.

None of the past 7 pages matter.

Larger ship railguns from just the mantas can down a titan with a few shots, with some missiles going in first for the void shields. D str ap 1 all over your titans, for +2 on the damage table. Titan dies. Math hammer it.

But did you need a fluff reason? Ok. Single shot railgun vs a imperial lemon russ. Went right through the human tank and kept on rolling without a care in the world. Example is in the tau codex. Now super size that gun for a flyer and boom, problem solved.

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Mass Drivers ARE NOT RAILGUNS.

Do you know WHY railguns are called railguns? Because they use two rails which are electro magnetically charged. And Because Railguns NEVER use sequential firing.

Mass Drivers, by definition, cannot ever have rails, nor can railguns lack them.

Mass Drivers can never, ever use rails BECAUSE they need to be used in a vacuum.

They are so fundamentally different from railguns this entire argument is silly.

I know it's ugly but this is supposed to be a family tree type thing demonstrating the difference:

What do the coils of a Mass Driver make when they are together?

Electromagnets.

What are the rails of a Railgun made of?

Electromagnets.



and your diagram leads from the generic Mass Driver to the more specific Railgun.

It is a family tree thing. It starts at magnetic propulsion. top-down.

And mass driver is more specific.

The difference is so enormous that you holding your view point still makes me lose faith in humanity.

Might as well be comparing arrows to lasers.

Kanluwen wrote:

Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.

All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.

The codex and the book are written by the same person.

Read the cover page of Codex: Tau and Savage Scars again.

Codex: Tau(NOT Tau Empire), where that piece premiered, was written by Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, and Graham McNeill. No sign, at all, of Andy Hoare.

Oh how embarassing

Because you are failing to comprehend what is a simple point.

It says "titans from Legio Thanataris". It does not say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". It's like if I were to say that the Hunter Cadre led an assault on a single bunker--you would be saying "Bwuh?". If I said "Fire Warriors from the Hunter Cadre" did the same thing--you would understand that it is a much different situation.

I understand the difference, but to me you are arguing semantics. Why does the fact that it says titans from Legio Thanataris preclude the possibility of Reaver and Warlord titans? And to be fair, the strength of the Legion on Da'lyth is never stated to be its full strength anywhere, we know that Titan Legions often split their strength up across numerous fronts, etc. Its perfectly reasonable that they sent a few reavers and a warlord along with a bunch of warhounds, and had the rest of their strength elsewhere. In Titanicus for example, its stated that Legio whatsitcalled had some of its strength away handling other commitments... yet they still managed to field some 60 some-odd engines...

Which is my big beef with the whole thing about the Tau. I have no problem with the Tau winning or being a "power on the rise". It's the way that it keeps happening that I have a problem with. It's clear that GW realizes they screwed the pooch with the Tau, and they have to keep inventing new superweapons to prevent the Tau from being wiped out or to put them on level footing against the Major Players.

It's like watching GI Joe and wondering what new miraculous toy the Joes will pull out to counter Cobra this week.

I feel like thats the case with the Imperium though, just in reverse (creating new superweapons to prevent them from being wiped out, etc.). Draigo strikes me as a prime example....

Mass Drivers ARE NOT RAILGUNS.

Do you know WHY railguns are called railguns? Because they use two rails which are electro magnetically charged. And Because Railguns NEVER use sequential firing.

Mass Drivers, by definition, cannot ever have rails, nor can railguns lack them.

Mass Drivers can never, ever use rails BECAUSE they need to be used in a vacuum.

They are so fundamentally different from railguns this entire argument is silly.

You're making stuff up now. Nothing in the definition of a Mass Driver precludes the possibility of rails.

In fact, railguns always can work in a vacuum, as they are merely directed magnetic fields. A rail gun is really the broad term for an electromagnetically propelled round with direction and a firing command.

Any energy source capable of creating a directed, or controllable magnetic field, can be a rail-gun device.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.

All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.

The codex and the book are written by the same person.

Read the cover page of Codex: Tau and Savage Scars again.

Codex: Tau(NOT Tau Empire), where that piece premiered, was written by Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, and Graham McNeill. No sign, at all, of Andy Hoare.

Oh how embarassing

It happens.

Because you are failing to comprehend what is a simple point.

It says "titans from Legio Thanataris". It does not say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". It's like if I were to say that the Hunter Cadre led an assault on a single bunker--you would be saying "Bwuh?". If I said "Fire Warriors from the Hunter Cadre" did the same thing--you would understand that it is a much different situation.

I understand the difference, but to me you are arguing semantics. Why does the fact that it says titans from Legio Thanataris preclude the possibility of Reaver and Warlord titans? And to be fair, the strength of the Legion on Da'lyth is never stated to be its full strength anywhere, we know that Titan Legions often split their strength up across numerous fronts, etc. Its perfectly reasonable that they sent a few reavers and a warlord along with a bunch of warhounds, and had the rest of their strength elsewhere. In Titanicus for example, its stated that Legio whatsitcalled had some of its strength away handling other commitments... yet they still managed to field some 60 some-odd engines...

But you see, here's the problem. It comes down to the whole thing about the Tiger Shark being "the answer to the Warhound". If that's their answer to the Warhound, that's pretty clearly meaning that they have yet to encounter Warlords, Reavers, or Imperators.

It might be semantics, but semantics are important when dealing with the minutiae of the absurdly little amount of fluff we have on the Tau.

Which is my big beef with the whole thing about the Tau. I have no problem with the Tau winning or being a "power on the rise". It's the way that it keeps happening that I have a problem with. It's clear that GW realizes they screwed the pooch with the Tau, and they have to keep inventing new superweapons to prevent the Tau from being wiped out or to put them on level footing against the Major Players.

It's like watching GI Joe and wondering what new miraculous toy the Joes will pull out to counter Cobra this week.

I feel like thats the case with the Imperium though, just in reverse (creating new superweapons to prevent them from being wiped out, etc.).

Really? Name a "superweapon" preventing them from being wiped out. I can wait.

Draigo strikes me as a prime example....

I figured it would happen eventually, I'm just really disappointed that it was you who did it.

Draigo is impotent. He can slaughter his way across the Realm of Chaos all he wants--everything he's done in there is immediately undone. He can't affect the mortal realm without an active Warpgate allowing him to be 'summoned', he is essentially a Daemon by the fluff.

It's the worst possible fate for a Grey Knight and a devotee of the Imperium. Although, there is an upside I think. If the Imperium released tales of Draigo fighting his way across the Realm of Chaos, and enough people start feeding Draigo worship...he feasibly could become a deity.

Now that? That would be a superweapon.

Lol, it (Draigo reference) was a joke, relax haha. As for the Tigershark being the answer to the warhound, I don't think its ever really stated that specifically, I thought it was stated that it was the answer to Imperial titans, at this point I'm too lazy to actually bother to check.