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I would like to see the Chaos Marines get a codex that looks similar to the Space Marines. They are similar in almost all aspects from transports, armor, and weapons. The Emperor didn't say to his space marines, "and they shall know no fear" after the heresy was over (more so that he was placed in the Golden Throne). He said that about his marines as they were conquering the galaxy. Why would my Chaos Space Marines break, run away, and not have a chance to rally? Why can't they combat squad? I understand that I have cult troops but I don't want my Word Bearers to commit to Khorne or Nurgle just so that I can remain on a level playing field. On top of that - why can't I just mark the unit? Why do they have to have one guy holding an Icon to make them reroll morale checks or give them +1 S,T, or I? Why does the squad's ability that I pay almost 50 points for rest on the survival of one man? Why are we still stuck with the original land raider? Somehow Chaos hasn't figured out how to pimp theirs out? The Mechanicus abhors the alteration of an STC yet somehow they churn them out for the loyalist but chaos who make all the repairs themselves and use corrupted Adeptus Mechanicus won't give them the go-ahead to alter their land raiders. These are just a few of my gripes against the current codex.

alphaomega wrote:9 out of 18 legions are Chaos. The 4th Ed Chaos Codex was a very poor show to people who had legion specific armies, such as my old Death Guard Army, beyond the Plaguemarines the rest of my army was no longer Death Guard just Nurgle.

The thing that annoyed me here? The Icon system. Not only did we lose the pure Cult armies with Berserker Terminators, Noise Marine Havocs, Rubrics and Death Guard Terminators (which is even more offensive given how damn beautiful the FW upgrade kit is!) but we got lumped with a cumbersome 'extra upgrade' that was thrown in just before 5th edition with the Torrent of Fire rules. So we have even more to lose to a random barrage of lucky hits due to having to assign wounds to everything.

It also creates very bizarre WTF moments where your entire army is Fearless...apart from your elite Veterans who run away at the drop of a hat and should they drop their flag on a stick suddenly can run off to worship Slaanesh despite their pustules and all.

People forget that the Cult lists had a lot of downsides to them in the forms of restricted units, restricted weapons and in some cases a complete lack of upgrades. Sure, the 3.5 list had some particularly OP aspects....such as trading the virtually useless Fast Attack for an extra Heavy Support (oh hi Iron Warriors) or Slaanesh minor psychic powers being particularly silly. But it was still better than its predecessor and its offspring. It was closer to the original 2nd edition codex and that is what it shouldn't have deviated from.

Let's be honest here and confess that the 4th ed. codex is a joke in the current metagame. If they'd stuck to their design plans and every Codex had been similarly streamlined as DA, Eldar and CSM had then I'm sure they would be balanced. But SW, GKs, BA and DE? Hahahaha. No. There we deviate quite nastily from the original plan. There is no way those are following the same philosophy as the Days of Jervis. Even Codex SM deviates significantly from it.

I have one hope - give us Marks. Give us upgrades for units that don't suddenly disappear to a lucky hit and give us upgrades that let us play the Legions proper.

We have ONE Codex for 9 Legions plus Renegades.

And yet the other side has 6 - and one of those is for a fething successor chapter of all things!

which one is the successor chapter? and I only count five. Sorry, probably just me being dense.

More than anything, I want the Icon system dropped. It is un-fluffy, un-wieldy and just plain un-usable. For my regular CSM squads, I never used them. I just didn't bother. I would like some variety. I have played the 2 DP, 6-9 Oblits, 2-3 Termicide squads, 2-3 PM foot sloggers and 2-3 WE rhino blitz for over 3 years now. Sure it works (even without Lash). It sure is boring though. My BA can go DOA or Razor Spam. My SM are nothing but variety. Admittedly my 'Nids need more work than my CSM. I am really hoping that GW doesn't break what I do use but gives me more choice that makes sense. I didn't care for 3.5 (blasphemy!) all that much. It took about 30 minutes to explain my list to my opponent. The dreadnoughts still sucked. The minor psychic powers were lame. It also didn't pack much of a punch. It was easy to min-max and you basically had to to be competitive. Fluff considerations aside, I want either Ward (that's right I said it!) or Kelly to make my favorite army fun again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Destructo wrote:which one is the successor chapter? and I only count five. Sorry, probably just me being dense.

Black Templars I believe.......successor to the IF.

Captain Destructo wrote:which one is the successor chapter? and I only count five. Sorry, probably just me being dense.

Black Templars.

I'm guessing he's counting GK as number six.

Black Templars.
There is Codex Loyal Marines, BA, DA, SW, BT and Grey Knights (which could also be a successor chapter).

I would be nice to see a deadicated book for each god at least, that way they could mix Daemons and Marines with more human/alien cultists and bring more options to the metagame.

Ninja'ed by the Mod

lord_blackfang wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Not all iw were as focused on cultists. With 5th ed rules you would see a lot more cultists around as cheap objective grabbers.

I saw plenty of cultists around in alpha legion lists. World bearers have never been real popular, but I never saw a pre 4th ed list without cultists.

I'm not sure where you saw all these IW and WB cultists because the 3.5 codex certainly did not include them.

I thought the same thing when I read that. Guess they never saw an IW or WB player who wasn't cheating...

DarkStarSabre wrote:
And yet the other side has 6 - and one of those is for a fething successor chapter of all things!

Irrelevant TBH, 2nd Founding Chapters were still originally composed of the warriors who fought in the Heresy. They're entitled to the same glories as their parent Legions. 3rd and on and you'd have a case though.

The only reason the Templars got a Codex is because they had a very powerful sub-list in Codex: Armageddon, it became popular, and GW reckoned they could make more money by spinning them off into a full Codex. Graham McNeil wrote the Codex, it wasn't anywhere near as powerful as the Codex: Armageddon version, and no Graham McNeil no longer writes Codices. Make of that what you will.

In case people are wondering where the cultists came from, there was a chapter approved on it by Andy Chambers.
I also remember Jervis doing a chapter approved on cult terminators after someone complained. Yeah, you read that right - GW responded to feedback.

Strangely, I miss chapter approved...

Brother SRM wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'm not aware of anything he's accurately predicted.

I thought he accurately predicted Dreadfleet but that's it.

He doesn't seem to be quoted at all in either the Dakka or Warseer threads. He's mentioned in the header of the Dakka thread but I can't find what he said and when he said it. I suspect he just piggybacked onto Harry's hints.

A hint on the quality of Ghost21's rumors can be found here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5504775&postcount=437

boyd wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
Most likely Horus Aximand is going to be a special character. That was my immediate reaction.

I you haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, Horus Aximand was one of Horus's (Horus the primarch) 'mournival', an informal group of captains to advise him. He was named after Horus, and had the nickname 'Little Horus'.

He bore a striking resemblance to Horus as well. Unfortunately, he was wounded in battle according to one of the short stores and his face was ripped off (by a White Scar Captain who evaded capture/death) as he prefers to fight not wearing a helmet.

After they reattached his face all he ever really looked was angry.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

boyd wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
Most likely Horus Aximand is going to be a special character. That was my immediate reaction.

I you haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, Horus Aximand was one of Horus's (Horus the primarch) 'mournival', an informal group of captains to advise him. He was named after Horus, and had the nickname 'Little Horus'.

He bore a striking resemblance to Horus as well. Unfortunately, he was wounded in battle according to one of the short stores and his face was ripped off (by a White Scar Captain who evaded capture/death) as he prefers to fight not wearing a helmet.

After they reattached his face all he ever really looked was angry.

This being GW, I'm both surprised and disappointed he wasn't left with just a skull... and thereafter called 'little skullface' or perhaps 'skeletor'.

I hope for Torgaddon to be ressurrected somehow.
Torgaddon FTW!

Torgaddon is a good guy...

I know, i just like him. (they could make a datasheet or whatever)
And, if Mat ward writes it (badly) then my rage will be unmeasurable in human measure systems.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Worglock wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?

For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?

Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.

Because if Chaos has a good codex, all the Little Billies playing Marines won't be able to beat them. The bad guys CAN. NOT. WIN.

Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan and which still has better infantry options then the beloved space marines. Chaos players whining is a signature of this and every other edition of the game.

*Ric Romero Picture*
Good players can take a bad codex and still beat terrible players that flock to Power Armored Kiddie Candy. More at 11.


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templarboy wrote:More than anything, I want the Icon system dropped. It is un-fluffy, un-wieldy and just plain un-usable. For my regular CSM squads, I never used them. I just didn't bother. I would like some variety. I have played the 2 DP, 6-9 Oblits, 2-3 Termicide squads, 2-3 PM foot sloggers and 2-3 WE rhino blitz for over 3 years now. Sure it works (even without Lash). It sure is boring though. My BA can go DOA or Razor Spam. My SM are nothing but variety. Admittedly my 'Nids need more work than my CSM. I am really hoping that GW doesn't break what I do use but gives me more choice that makes sense. I didn't care for 3.5 (blasphemy!) all that much. It took about 30 minutes to explain my list to my opponent. The dreadnoughts still sucked. The minor psychic powers were lame. It also didn't pack much of a punch. It was easy to min-max and you basically had to to be competitive. Fluff considerations aside, I want either Ward (that's right I said it!) or Kelly to make my favorite army fun again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Destructo wrote:which one is the successor chapter? and I only count five. Sorry, probably just me being dense.

Black Templars I believe.......successor to the IF.

Grey Knights are also not an original legion.

Worglock wrote:Grey Knights are also not an original legion.

It's a little muddy, as they were created before the 2nd founding, and have a unique geneseed.

It's strongly alluded to that the GK are created from those from the traitor legions who resisted the betrayal and returned to the Emperor.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It's strongly alluded to that the GK are created from those from the traitor legions who resisted the betrayal and returned to the Emperor.

Ehhhhhhhh.

Yes and no. It's strongly alluded to that the founding of the Grey Knights was done with those individuals involved. Not that they're created directly from them--which would be weird, because how would it explain the massive amount of psykers and lack of traits which those individual Legions exhibited.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Worglock wrote:Grey Knights are also not an original legion.

It's a little muddy, as they were created before the 2nd founding, and have a unique geneseed.

The Grey Knights should not have had a codex dedicated to them alone and have the Daemonhunters codex turned into just another marine codex. A focus on the Inquisition with a little bit of GK mixed in would be perfect, but of course that could never happen.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Worglock wrote:Grey Knights are also not an original legion.

It's a little muddy, as they were created before the 2nd founding, and have a unique geneseed.

Emphasising mine, I wouldn't say that's it's exactly muddy.

I wouldn't say their dubious timing makes them a Legion; they neither fought in the great crusade, nor had a primarch. Add to that their numbers and I'd say they're a chapter, but not a successor chapter or a Legion, so they're in a unique(er) position.

Just Dave wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Worglock wrote:Grey Knights are also not an original legion.

It's a little muddy, as they were created before the 2nd founding, and have a unique geneseed.

Emphasising mine, I wouldn't say that's it's exactly muddy.

I wouldn't say their dubious timing makes them a Legion; they neither fought in the great crusade, nor had a primarch. Add to that their numbers and I'd say they're a chapter, but not a successor chapter or a Legion, so they're in a unique(er) position.

They're definitely not a Legion, the GK codex says at much. It says they were created as a Chapter, so I guess they would be the only 1st Founding Chapter.

I for one welcome the return of many many options a la the 3.5 codex. Bring on the cheese!

warboss wrote:

Blitza da warboy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You never lost your Iron Warriors.

You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.

Space Wolves lost that too.

Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!

Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.

1. My comparison to space wolves was due to the fact that Kan talked about it first

2. The fact that space wolves had a codex and Iron warriors had only a few rules to make them slightly more unique compared to other armies; only for that to be lost was actually my point. Really, all that was needed was one page, although it wasn't added or made.

3.Why would I want to play something from a badab book if I have to pay FW prices or download from the internet? I want to use a legal actual Iron warriors army, one which i can use in tournaments. Either way though a special warsmith character could be a compromise.

Blitza da warboy wrote:

warboss wrote:

Blitza da warboy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You never lost your Iron Warriors.

You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.

Space Wolves lost that too.

Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!

Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.

1. My comparison to space wolves was due to the fact that Kan talked about it first

Firstly, you do realize that the Space Wolf codex at that time was a 34ish page "supplement" for Codex: Space Marines, right? That's why I "talked about it first".

It was essentially a sublist, same as the Iron Warriors one was in the previous Chaos book.

2. The fact that space wolves had a codex and Iron warriors had only a few rules to make them slightly more unique compared to other armies; only for that to be lost was actually my point. Really, all that was needed was one page, although it wasn't added or made.

All that was needed was one page and another army's book, you mean.

I don't see why people are clamoring for Basilisks. There's so much MORE that can be done in the way of siege stuff for Chaos. Eldritch machines blending science with sorcery and the Daemonic with the rational. Look at the Brass Scorpion or the Blood Slaughterer or the Plague Drones. That's the kind of stuff that Chaos produces for itself, the Basilisks and the like are usually reserved for "Traitor Guard" regiments or special occasions.

3.Why would I want to play something from a badab book if I have to pay FW prices or download from the internet? I want to use a legal actual Iron warriors army, one which i can use in tournaments. Either way though a special warsmith character could be a compromise.

A "legal, actual Iron Warriors army" is one of a billion different things. The Iron Warriors, much like every Traitor Legion at this point, don't really have a huge amount of organizational acumen.

And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.

Kanluwen wrote:

And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.

Read: You'll be ok as long as you don't beat Little Billy's Marines. Then it's "Cheesy Forgeworld".

Worglock wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.

Read: You'll be ok as long as you don't beat Little Billy's Marines. Then it's "Cheesy Forgeworld".

It's not like that pile could stand up to grey knights or a well tooled wolves army anyway. Forge world could never come out with something as broken as the scoring palladin unit or the death cult assasin. My space sharks (taken from the badab book) are basically just a poor mans blood angels (I seriously just save points and gain abilities without changing models if I say "these are blood sharks".)

The Badaab war book is hardly OP.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Worglock wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.

Read: You'll be ok as long as you don't beat Little Billy's Marines. Then it's "Cheesy Forgeworld".

It's not like that pile could stand up to grey knights or a well tooled wolves army anyway. Forge world could never come out with something as broken as the scoring palladin unit or the death cult assasin. My space sharks (taken from the badab book) are basically just a poor mans blood angels (I seriously just save points and gain abilities without changing models if I say "these are blood sharks".)

The Badaab war book is hardly OP.

And you hardly got my point.

@kanluwen: As to the space wolves part, I did not know about that; although unless the supplement couldnt be used in the later editions, the space wolves still had a codex. About the reply to my second answer, I do agree that much more could be done; but there should be a limit as to what a codex's options could be. The extra is where apocalypse comes in imo. Lastly, what I meant by the badab book being bad, was the price. If they would cost as much as a codex, or at most $50, yeah...thats okay. But $100 is just too much


Not that I'm whining or anything, rather I'm just wish listing (if I'm using the correct term) that the legions codex gets iron warrior (and friends) rules again.


But what I really want to see is a night lord IC...playing Talos o Zho Sahaal would be really badass!