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Fostering antagonism is its own reward, andrewm9.

Kanluwen wrote:I don't remember any reports of problems with the models in the summer. Links?

Jes Goodwin said this a few weeks ago

He is still trying to work out how best to tackle plastic Sisters of Battle but they are still being problematic.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/326685.page

Points to a delay of SoB.

Personally, I am not aware of rumours that SoB are next after GK (speculation yes, but not rumours). My guess would be Necrons in May, but that's just a guess.

That "reports of problems with the models" comment was in reference to Melissia's comment of Dark Eldar having issues with the model design process.

The current Grey Knights codex is older than BT. So BT isn't the oldest Marine codex.

The ---Daemonhunter--- Codex isn't a Marine Codex. How do I know that? Because I have an extensive Daemonhunter army yet own not a single Grey Knight (other than the two I use as 'Counts As' Inquisitors in Power Armour w/Psycannons). And Daemonhunters is one of the oldest remaining Codices, along with Necrons and Witch Hunters (and then followed by Black Templar & Tau). Daemon Hunters are being repackaged as "Grey Knights" as the next Codex. After that is likely to be Necrons. After that is anyone's guess. I say it's either going to be Tau (popular army that sells well) or Black Templars (oldest Marine Codex, bring it in line with 5, Marines sell well). I see Sisters being after them.

Given that, from reports, they've only just started on them and appear to be having troubles with the models, I'd suspect that Sisters are a ways off (end of 2011/start of 2012) and not the next Codex after Grey Knights or even Necrons. If I'm wrong, fine, but there's logic behind why I think Tau and BT will be around before the redone Sisters. The former is a popular xeno army and the latter is the oldest Marine Codex in the line. Sisters are neither popular nor Marines.

Any current rumors regarding Black Templars is nothing but wishlisting. Even Harry admitted his own statements were basically taht.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If I'm wrong, fine, but there's logic behind why I think Tau and BT will be around before the redone Sisters. The former is a popular xeno army and the latter is the oldest Marine Codex in the line. Sisters are neither popular nor Marines.

By that reasoning, why not just redo Codex: Space Marines? It's popular and sells well, right?

The Chaos Space Marines are being held back by their atrocious 4th edition codex - fixing that would greatly improve sales. Mechanised SoB would become fully plastic with the addition of even a single kit and a few conversions. Necrons and Grey Knights have similar flaws to be fixed. Compared to those, what will a new Black Templars release bring to the table that the existing model range, 4th edition BT and 5th edition SM codices haven't?

Well, not exactly. Somehow I have my doubts that they'd include heavy weapons options in the Battle Sisters kit, and instead they'd probably make that a separate Retributors kit.

And then there's all the new units that have to be added in for the codex to qualify as a fifth edition one. It needs to double in size at the very least.

Same with Grey Knights and Necrons, too.

AlexHolker wrote:By that reasoning, why not just redo Codex: Space Marines? It's popular and sells well, right?

1. They have a 5th Ed Codex.
2. Why would they re-do something that's already selling well?
3. Re-doing a Codex means they have to spend money on making new models. Why spend money to revamp something that's already selling enough as it is?
4. They'll get one when 6th Ed hits.

AlexHolker wrote:The Chaos Space Marines are being held back by their atrocious 4th edition codex - fixing that would greatly improve sales. Mechanised SoB would become fully plastic with the addition of even a single kit and a few conversions. Necrons and Grey Knights have similar flaws to be fixed. Compared to those, what will a new Black Templars release bring to the table that the existing model range, 4th edition BT and 5th edition SM codices haven't?

Well it will be a Space Wolf/Blood Angel style release, with completely new kits that include Marines (rather than just a frame that goes with the existing kits). It will allow them to add new models to the range, give several more plastic kits using their great sprue technology that has so revitalised the Wolf and Blood Angel lines, and allow them to remove the existing (and unsuccessful) Black Templar conversion kits from the range. They get to update a Codex from early 4th to 5th, and as it's a Space Marine release most of the leg work is already done because of the way the new kits will mesh with the existing kits (no need to do new tanks, etc.). It's a cheap release (a bit like 4th Ed Tau) that generates far more than it takes to create and is easy to justify to the bean-counters up stairs.

I don't disagree that Chaos have an atrocious Codex, but Templars are a far quicker thing to work on than re-doing Chaos to fix all the bs that happened to them. And as I said, Sisters are not a popular army. They are more likely to re-do an old Marine Codex than they are to take the leap of faith (pun not intended) with an army that only exists today because Andy Chambers championed them when he was still around. Their last big leap of faith was Dark Eldar, and that seems to be paying off. That's a good thing. It means they'll take more risks, and the next risk will be the re-do of Necrons. Sisters can be the risk after that, but you don't take risk after risk after risk. You play it safe sometimes. Re-doing a consistently popular xeno race (Tau) and bringing the oldest Marine Codex into line with the Wolf and BA Codices is playing it safe.

Which is nice speculation and all, but it still has no real backing.

If chaos is so bad, why do i seem to lose to it all the time.

Chaos isn't necessarily a bad list. It just lacks the flavour and variety of Codex 3.5. This is the prime reason it gets so much hate.

Actually Chaos Space Marines (I don't say Chaos, because Chaos Daemons is thankfully separate) is a very good list, one of the best and most varied lists that isn't a fifth edition codex...

It may be one of the best, but it isn't really all that varied.

Which, of course, is the biggest 'complaint' against it.

SoB's, IF they are done right, would be a big seller for GW.

It seems that the problems with the plastics will delay it, but they'll get it right eventually, and when they do - look out!

I know my wallet is already cringing in fear at the prospect of plastic Sisters. I have about 150 metal ones "just in case" I dunno, I decide to expand past 5000 points or something, but I would be unable to resist buying at least enough to mix the ratio of metals to plastic in squads to 3:2. Plus better Seraphim would rock.

Sometimes, my wallet cries out in the night. I tell my wife it was the cat.

I second Alpharius on the CSM dex being just dull. The whole thing is just kind of sad in how little you can do with it variety wise. Space marines with spikes and marks of chaos. Whoooo. :( One can't even give characters mutations!

H.B.M.C. wrote:2. Why would they re-do something that's already selling well?
3. Re-doing a Codex means they have to spend money on making new models. Why spend money to revamp something that's already selling enough as it is?

That was my point. Lines that are already selling well (like the Tau and Space Marines) have less room to improve their sales than taking one of the armies that should be selling well and getting rid of the weak links that are stopping them selling well.

And as I said, Sisters are not a popular army. They are more likely to re-do an old Marine Codex than they are to take the leap of faith (pun not intended) with an army that only exists today because Andy Chambers championed them when he was still around.

They've never had so much as a plastic troops choice and cost 30% more than Forgeworld for two-piece metal models from ancient, decaying moulds. Of course they're unpopular. That's why I'm suggesting taking their greatest weakness, and removing it.

AlexHolker wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:2. Why would they re-do something that's already selling well?
3. Re-doing a Codex means they have to spend money on making new models. Why spend money to revamp something that's already selling enough as it is?

That was my point. Lines that are already selling well (like the Tau and Space Marines) have less room to improve their sales than taking one of the armies that should be selling well and getting rid of the weak links that are stopping them selling well.

It will still happen. GW promised that they would up date everything first

GW need to make the models so good that all the die hard sister players who coughed up their hundreds of $ for their metal armies at 10$ a special weapon are prepared to replace them with the gorgeous new models. If they botch it up then it will fail utterly.

As a die hard sister player, I am open minded about if I want to pay a huge amount to replace my metal, but if the models are worth it, I guess I will have no choice :(.

cute-hydra wrote:
GW need to make the models so good that all the die hard sister players who coughed up their hundreds of $ for their metal armies at 10$ a special weapon are prepared to replace them with the gorgeous new models. If they botch it up then it will fail utterly.

I don't think GW will tailor their release schedule (at least for models) to the 30(odd some) of you Die-hard sisters players.

Just to clarify, when would 6th edition actually be DUE (cause by my math it would be late 2013 if not 2014, and they only have, what, 9 books left?)

Current codexes (codi, codices, whatever). Source

5th Edition
Codex ISBN Release Date
Dark Eldar ISBN 978-1-84154-978-1 November 2010
Blood Angels ISBN 978-1-84154-960-6 April 2010
Tyranids ISBN 978-1-84154-951-4 January 2010
Space Wolves ISBN 978-1-84154-010-8 October 2009
Imperial Guard ISBN 978-1-84154-923-1 May 2009
Space Marines ISBN 978-1-84154-894-4 October 2008

4th Edition
Codex ISBN Release Date
Chaos Daemons ISBN 1-84154-8791 May 2008
Orks ISBN 978-1-84154-852-4 January 2008
Chaos Space Marines ISBN 978-1-84154-842-5 September 2007
Dark Angels ISBN 1-84154-807-3 March 2007
Eldar ISBN 1-84154-791-3 November 2006
Tau Empire ISBN 1-84154-712-3 March 2006
Black Templars ISBN 1-84154-685-2 November 2005

3rd Edition
Codex ISBN Release Date
Witch Hunters ISBN 1-84154-485-X April 2004
Daemonhunters ISBN 1-84154-361-6 March 2003
Necrons ISBN 1-84154-190-7 July 2002


If you call Daemonhunters space marines, they're the oldest marine codex by 2 years. I prefer to think of them as part of the Inquisition, though. I'm really hoping that there will be rules for Deathwatch squads/armies. I find the Ordo Xenos to be facinating.

I'm hoping that the priority stays on the 2002-2005 codexes, as they need to most TLC to catch up with the 5th edition latest and greatest.

Chaos Space Marines are a very competitive codex.

CSM is not being held back by a lame duck codex.

Sales of CSM is being help back by a bland low variety codex.

Chaos 3.5 had a huge amount of variety with many popular builds. Chaos 4.0 only has a couple of competitive builds, and there are only a couple of popular builds. CSM has one of the largest selections of available miniatures of any codex, and has the largest conversion possibilities. Besides an unhappy CSM player base that wants more variety GW wants a larger number of CSM figures to sell as every chaos player out there already owns DP, PM, and oblits.

From a marketing stand point it's insane for one of the most popular armies with a huge selection of miniatures to only sell a small chunk of the CSM miniature line. That being said I'm starting to think that CSM will cut ahead of an older codex that is in more need of a new codex.

schadenfreude wrote:Chaos Space Marines are a very competitive codex.

CSM is not being held back by a lame duck codex.

Sales of CSM is being help back by a bland low variety codex.

Chaos 3.5 had a huge amount of variety with many popular builds. Chaos 4.0 only has a couple of competitive builds, and there are only a couple of popular builds. CSM has one of the largest selections of available miniatures of any codex, and has the largest conversion possibilities. Besides an unhappy CSM player base that wants more variety GW wants a larger number of CSM figures to sell as every chaos player out there already owns DP, PM, and oblits.

From a marketing stand point it's insane for one of the most popular armies with a huge selection of miniatures to only sell a small chunk of the CSM miniature line. That being said I'm starting to think that CSM will cut ahead of an older codex that is in more need of a new codex.

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied, and definitely just as cheesy as any loyalist marine codex...

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

I don't care how long they wait (I don't play chaos), but I think that the fluff demands that chaos be a powerful, varied codex that can accurately and appropriately represent the various chaos factions and powers and not just be "marines with spikes".

Heck I think the major chaos legions should have their own codexes, but whatever...

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

ROFLMAO

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Very true. The 4th edition CSM codex isn't bad. However,CSM players got completely spoiled with what was an overpowered codex around the Eye of Terror campaign,and are now complaining about being nerfed back in line with the rest of the pack.

I would agree except Blood Angel and Space Wolf cheese as of late makes their complaints valid again...

Chaos marines should be nasty, powerful and varied

You mean, just like every other army? The CSM players need to quit whining and wait on their codex. Emperor knows that other codices have waited far longer. Geeze, with all of the whining about the CSM codex you'd think it was an image of hte antichrist making out with a severely overweight Rosie O'donnel which had a zombie arm that was throwing poo at you.

Can I just point out, as a Chaos player, not all of us CSM players are whining , only satisfied if we receive a new codex every week, each more powerful than the last and able to effortlessly steamroll every other faction at the same time with our selection of 9000 units. It's just that you're going to notice the complainers more because, well, complainers tend to be highly vocal.

I for one think the current codex, while a little flavourless, is more than respectable in every other area of concern. Personally, I'd like to see the Necrons get an update sooner than most and I don't even play them, I just feel sorry for our one gamer who does!

I'm kind of bummed that it will be JUST Grey Knights, I really liked the diversity of the Daemonhunters books. I liked the idea of building a Radical Ordo Malleus army.

I don't care about the 'competitiveness' of the CSM codex and neither do I care about having a new and shiny codex with lots of spangly new rules and units.

What I do care about, is being able to field my Death Guard and World Eaters armies as if they actually were such rather than slightly naughty generic Space Marines - I want my fluff, dammit!

I suspect I am not alone either. I'm not saying that CSM needs doing right away but maybe GW could redo the CSM codex without necessarily having to invest the time, effort and money into redoing the entire model line and bringing out new stuff when it isn't needed.

filbert wrote:

What I do care about, is being able to field my Death Guard and World Eaters armies as if they actually were such rather than slightly naughty generic Space Marines - I want my fluff, dammit!

That is the "accurately and appropriately" part I was alluding to...