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Following my philosofy of "Images say more then a thousand words"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/Moonsinger/WOLF.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/Moonsinger/Untitled-1copy-2.jpg

Now to the regular whine of "Dark Eldar... allmost 11 years now man". And "GW is favourising Space Marines!!!". But I digress, I guess we'll see a streamlined version of the nid codex and fixing it, but I would rather see DE first, hell I would like to see them before anything =/ but it feels like that not gonna happen, *looks at his 3k old DE army* they need some new souls(RULES) to harvest.
I wouldn't mind Nids though, if they bring something new would be pretty nice, even though the army got lots of diferent build to try out, I somehow think they should have waited. But profit is profit and Nids propobly sell more then Dark Eldar. More effective anti-tank is always good for Nids.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

gorgon wrote:So this old-timer's really hoping for a codex that allows not just megahorde and Nidzilla, but something in between also.

I think you'll get that, for semi-competitive play. But for competitive play, only horde will be viable.

Prolly right. Kinda like IG and their builds.

Ah well...whatever we get, I'm gonna MAKE it work. Tyranids have been through plenty of evolutions before. Second edition armies looked different than 3rd ed. rulebook armies, which looked different from 3rd edition codex armies, which looked different than 3rd edition armies under 4th edition rules, which looked different than 4th edition codex armies. At some times they were the ultimate screening army, at other times they were the only army that couldn't screen, etc.

Us old-timers adapt, appropriately enough.

I miss the days when I could stack up Gaunts in front of Stealers in front of Warriors in front of the MC's so that the Gaunts were the only available targets. That was some seriously broken stuff, and I loved it.

I really am missing the super-fast horde of 2nd edition and 3rd edition code time, though. Those were the days. I have very high hopes for this codex.

The most irritating thing is that Nidzilla really isn't in the spirit of the army. If they're going to make it a viable build, it should only be as effective as other builds. The swarm army is what fits the fluff. Even the medium sized army full of medium sized Tyranids can be justified as fluffy. Having one competitive build is not acceptable. Especially when it's totally unfluffy...

P.S. @Thorheim. I'd love to see DE before Nids too, but I've heard nothing of DE news from GD Germany. I can't believe the subject wasn't raised. There had to be some word on their status...

they will never, ever design a codex for competitive play. They don't even think about this build or that build when they design it. Codexes are designed to sell whatever new models are made. Which is why Nidzilla happened at all, they wanted to sell more of the new plastic fexes so they made them elite choices and let you take 6 in a list and they made them the best unit in the book.

If they make new guants and warriors, that will become the new and best army you can have. If they make plastic biovores you will see them suddenly shooting only 1 kind of spore mine and it will be a str5 ap2 large blast that ignores cover so everyone will buy them. A new plastic hive tyrant will have a special power where you roll a d6 every turn and if you roll a 6 you automatically win the game and get to keep one of your opponent's minis.

If your only interest is in competitive playing, then just buy 2-3 boxes of whatever is new, and your army will crush everything This goes for every army, not just nids

Archonate wrote:The most irritating thing is that Nidzilla really isn't in the spirit of the army. If they're going to make it a viable build, it should only be as effective as other builds. The swarm army is what fits the fluff. Even the medium sized army full of medium sized Tyranids can be justified as fluffy. Having one competitive build is not acceptable. Especially when it's totally unfluffy...

This is always an annoying position. The fluff supports the hive fleet evolving whatever the hell it needs to get it done, and in an environment overloaded with Land Raiders, the hive fleet's resources are better spend on Carnifexes than 'gaunts.

Please don't try and shackle other players with your understanding of what is in the spirit of the army, most especially for tyranids - there are literally no limitations on a hive fleet, as opposed to (say) Space Marines, who only have so many Land Raiders in the entire chapter all of which tend to show up in a single encounter, led personally by the Chapter Master.

Since the IG codex allows players to field more compact veteran/mech armies without painting up 220 infantry models, I expect Nidzilla to stick around as a similar option. Nidzilla was and can still be very good to GW's bottom line.

However, I expect Nidzilla in its current form will become less optimal. They sold a crapload of Carnifexes, etc. to Tyranid newcomers because of the strength of the Nidzilla build. Now they'll want to start pushing more Gaunt and Warrior boxes on those same players. Just seems like the obvious business move.

Janthkin wrote:

Archonate wrote:The most irritating thing is that Nidzilla really isn't in the spirit of the army. If they're going to make it a viable build, it should only be as effective as other builds. The swarm army is what fits the fluff. Even the medium sized army full of medium sized Tyranids can be justified as fluffy. Having one competitive build is not acceptable. Especially when it's totally unfluffy...

This is always an annoying position. The fluff supports the hive fleet evolving whatever the hell it needs to get it done, and in an environment overloaded with Land Raiders, the hive fleet's resources are better spend on Carnifexes than 'gaunts.

Please don't try and shackle other players with your understanding of what is in the spirit of the army, most especially for tyranids - there are literally no limitations on a hive fleet, as opposed to (say) Space Marines, who only have so many Land Raiders in the entire chapter all of which tend to show up in a single encounter, led personally by the Chapter Master.

That argument doesn't really hold considering Tyranids evolve to attack entire planets. They don't evolve specifically to fight a little 50-man group of mechanized Space Marines. Otherwise Nid players would be allowed to make each army list after having seen their opponent's army list... Ridiculous.
You can, however, say that the hive mind is sending a large group of monstrous Tyranids to go deal with a tank squadron though.
I never said that Nidzilla is unjustifiable. I'm saying that having only one competitive build is slowed...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

gorgon wrote:So this old-timer's really hoping for a codex that allows not just megahorde and Nidzilla, but something in between also.

I think you'll get that, for semi-competitive play. But for competitive play, only horde will be viable.

Although if the Trygon is added to the codex horde may not be what they're focusing on in the new codex. Instead there may be a nid list that sort of acts like a Marine drop pod list. That is IF the Trygon makes it into the codex and if it has the rules that would support this style of play.

Carnifexes will be more powerful, but less numerous. This will ensure that new players keep buying them, but also means GW can pimp something else (re-cut Gaunts & Warriors) as the 'new hotness'.

And the power builds that are found in the Codices are just accidents. GW never intended Nob Bikers or Vulkan Marines or MechVet/ValkVets to be 'power builds' - they intended to sell models, hence Nidzilla (but never factored in the number crunching that people like Yak did to find the Dakkafex, Gunfex etc.) - so you can expect that all types of play - Zilla, mid-sized (Warriors/Raveners/Genestealers), and swarm will all be playable in the new Codex, just as they are now. But only one of them will be the 'power build', and it will become the default NetDeck for 'Nids with minor variations here and there.

I hope that it won't be full of pointless, stupid errors. Like how a Barbed Strangler costs more on a Carnifex if that Carnifex also has Toxin Sacs, but the profile of the shot fired doesn't change. You pay points for nothing. That, and other silly things that aren't necessarily mistakes but are obviously not well thought out. Twin linking a Venom Cannon on an MC costs you twice as many points as one weapon, AND the other weapon slot. On 35 point Venom Cannons, this is just silly.

Railguns wrote:I hope that it won't be full of pointless, stupid errors.

What's life like being such a huge optimist?

Look on the bright side everyone - it won't be Warwick 'Copypasta-Desasta' Kincaid writing it, so we can rest assured that the Codex will be different, and not just the previous one copied and pasted into that current nonsensical 40K Codex format.

I think he's just playing the odds. After this many codex GW's bound to get lucky.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Recut Gaunts (new staple of 'Nid armies)
Recut Warriors (awesome new rules)
Plastic Gargoyles (bad rules - every Codex has one)
Trygon (the 'new' Carnifex - can probably take it in every FoC slot)

And then I don't know. Special Characters... yay. Jervishammer strikes again, so even 'Nids get named characters.

I think gaunts will be a huge improvement in the new codex. The trend from the ork and IG codex has been to make basic units much cheaper and more effective at their purpose. Now, this could be to make the armies better, or to give people more incentive to buy more models....you can be the judge of that! Considering the sudden shift to vehicles from 4th edition, the gradual increase of models per army over the last few years...seems like a given.

JD21290 wrote:With any luck they will do away with nidzilla
Just too boring

things i hope for if they get a change:

Drop fex limit, 6 is just annoying.

I found this amusing.

Archonate wrote:The most irritating thing is that Nidzilla really isn't in the spirit of the army. If they're going to make it a viable build, it should only be as effective as other builds. The swarm army is what fits the fluff. Even the medium sized army full of medium sized Tyranids can be justified as fluffy. Having one competitive build is not acceptable. Especially when it's totally unfluffy...

P.S. @Thorheim. I'd love to see DE before Nids too, but I've heard nothing of DE news from GD Germany. I can't believe the subject wasn't raised. There had to be some word on their status...

I'll just copy/paste what I posted at Warseer on this subject.

How a Tyranid invasion generally goes:
(Step 0: Genestealer Cult/Shock.)
Step 1: Sea of gaunts to exhaust the defenders.
Step 2: Hordes of Carnifexes to tear and destroy everything.
Step 3: Rippers to digest the biomass.

Nidzilla is very much in the spirit of the Tyranids and just as "fluffly" as a mass of gaunts.

I'm looking forward to Tyranids having some all-around CC punch once again, though the option of focusing on ranged attacks shouldn't be killed like some people seem to be wishing.

That may be the case as far as the fluff goes, but the only reason we have Nidzilla is because of the plastic Carnifex. They wanted to sell models, so they increased the amount of that model that you could take.

Like when someone says that the current trend is better basic infantry - well, yes, because you need more of them and you can sell more models. Will anyone be surprised when the most numerous model type in a 'typical' 'Nid army - the Gaunt - becomes indispensable in the next Codex?

I wouldn't be surprised - you really need 2 or 3 boxes of Gaunts to make a sizeable enough unit. At 30-odd bucks a box, making Gaunts more valuable in a 'Nid army would equal big bucks for GW.

H.B.M.C. wrote:That may be the case as far as the fluff goes, but the only reason we have Nidzilla is because of the plastic Carnifex. They wanted to sell models, so they increased the amount of that model that you could take.

Like when someone says that the current trend is better basic infantry - well, yes, because you need more of them and you can sell more models. Will anyone be surprised when the most numerous model type in a 'typical' 'Nid army - the Gaunt - becomes indispensable in the next Codex?

Very true, but in this case I was addressing the fact that a large number of MC is part of the Tyranid fluff.
It's obvious that when GW made the new Carnifex with all those extra little bits, they tooled the rules to accommodate them.
But calling the strategy unfluffly is wrong

Vhalyar wrote:But calling the strategy unfluffly is wrong

Oh I agree - Nidzilla certainly has its place in the fluff - but I think what irked people so much was the fact that it became the only way to play 'Nids. Swarms vanished becase Nidzilla was the only viable way to have a competative force. 'Stealer Shock appeared later, but it's still not your 'classical' swarm army either.

Sadly I don't see this trend going away. The next 'Nid 'Dex will bring Swarms back, but that'll be the only viable list. Nidzilla, assuming its even possible, won't work.

I think that there's nothing wrong with Nidzilla becoming a sub-par list, but I don't want Carnifexes to become weaksauce. I also seriously doubt that swarms will actually be viable, considering there are scary things like Leman Russ Eradicators/Executioners/Battle Tanks and artillery that can blast a swarm to bits before it gets into range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And bring back Commissar Calgar, H'. I can't take you seriously without him.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Railguns wrote:I hope that it won't be full of pointless, stupid errors.

What's life like being such a huge optimist?

Look on the bright side everyone - it won't be Warwick 'Copypasta-Desasta' Kincaid writing it, so we can rest assured that the Codex will be different, and not just the previous one copied and pasted into that current nonsensical 40K Codex format.

Yeah, I know HBMC. I've just gotten to the point where the pessimism is an understood constant and I don't have to state it. I guess that comes off as optimistic sometimes.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that there's nothing wrong with Nidzilla becoming a sub-par list, but I don't want Carnifexes to become weaksauce. I also seriously doubt that swarms will actually be viable, considering there are scary things like Leman Russ Eradicators/Executioners/Battle Tanks and artillery that can blast a swarm to bits before it gets into range.

If swarms can shoot back effectively, close in faster and hit harder once they get there, they definitely have a chance to work.

Although their deployment and army strategies are completely different, Daemons would appear to have the same issues at first glance. Yet they have just enough tools in their arsenal to make it work.

IMO, the solutions are already there if they pay attention. For one, Lictors that can actually kick a$$ in your opponent's backfield would be a big help to the elements making a frontal assault.

gorgon wrote:
If swarms can shoot back effectively, close in faster and hit harder once they get there, they definitely have a chance to work.

I think 2 out of 3 would be enough to make them worth while. Getting all three would just make it too fun.

The Trygons tunnelling ability would be a means to help them close in faster and safetly. Great for the assault oriented force, not much help for one that wants to shoot more.

If swarms can shoot back effectively, close in faster and hit harder once they get there, they definitely have a chance to work.

Agreed. I'm not sure how they'd go about making Gaunts faster, but they're definitely not all that fast now that everything can run. Their shooting is already pretty decent, and their stat line isn't horrible. What they really need is a points reduction (3 points base, probably, assuming they keep all the upgrades the same prices) and a modification to the Fearless rules. That would instantly fix them. The Trygon shuttling them in would be a super sweet bonus.

IMO, the solutions are already there if they pay attention. For one, Lictors that can actually kick a$$ in your opponent's backfield would be a big help to the elements making a frontal assault.

Agreed again. At the very least, Lictors need an extra toughness and no difficult terrain tests on entering play. For their cost, they also probably deserve another wound. In the Tyranid codex ideas thread, someone mentioned allowing Lictors to have a surprise attack kind of thing that basically amounts to a return to 3rd edition CC rules for them only. That is, you can run in, hack apart a guy or two , take attacks form the guys within 2 inches of you, then use Hit and Run to GTFO and do it again next turn. It totally fits the stealth thing they're supposed to have going on, and without a power weapon, it's far from broken.

They need to make the midsize bugs a viable option. Warriors, Raveners, Lictors, Biovores, Zoanthropes.

But I don't know if they can.

If they recut the Gaunts, I hope to God that they redo the heads to make them one piece! That is the nightmare of buidling the little guys.

And would it be a bad thing to put Genestealers on a 40mm base? all those arms flailing around, thye might as well so you don't tangle with the other player's nicely painted models.
It might hurt base to base contact, but considering the size of GS broods, it shouldn't affect the numbers in 2" too much

MilkmanAl wrote:Agreed again. At the very least, Lictors need an extra toughness and no difficult terrain tests on entering play. For their cost, they also probably deserve another wound. In the Tyranid codex ideas thread, someone mentioned allowing Lictors to have a surprise attack kind of thing that basically amounts to a return to 3rd edition CC rules for them only. That is, you can run in, hack apart a guy or two , take attacks form the guys within 2 inches of you, then use Hit and Run to GTFO and do it again next turn. It totally fits the stealth thing they're supposed to have going on, and without a power weapon, it's far from broken.

I was never a fan of the DS into terrain. The fact that you had to DS within 6" to assault the enemy and thus incurr a good chance of misshaps because said enemy was hogging terrain, made them even more fragile. Now in 5th, they might even take a wound by DS. In my oppinion, lictors should have either gotten the ability similar to a Calidus Assassin, place it anywhere on the board and act normally. Or ignored the penalty for deepstriking within 1" of the enemy. Plus even when you were lucky and got off an assault, they usually didn't do a whole lot.

I'd like to see 2 worthwhile lists come out of the new book. first being a genestealer-heavy list, like a genestealer cult without people.

2nd would be a gaunt swarm list. Gaunts come with outnumber, but are still a couple pts cheaper than now. If the trygon ends up being added it would be nice if after it bursts out of the ground it leaves a crater (and comes with a cool crater bit to represent it), and gaunts with without number can use said crater to enter the board from instead of it being the table edge.

synapse creatures should also be able to sacrifice d3 or d6 gaunts in synapse range to kill them off, so that if someone decides to be "smart" and leave just 1 gaunt standing and avoid it so the unit can't come back, you can kill it off yourself.

And gaunts should come with special movement trays so that your movement phase doesn't take 12 hours.

wyomingfox wrote:I was never a fan of the DS into terrain. The fact that you had to DS within 6" to assault the enemy and thus incurr a good chance of misshaps because said enemy was hogging terrain, made them even more fragile. Now in 5th, they might even take a wound by DS. In my oppinion, lictors should have either gotten the ability similar to a Calidus Assassin, place it anywhere on the board and act normally. Or ignored the penalty for deepstriking within 1" of the enemy. Plus even when you were lucky and got off an assault, they usually didn't do a whole lot.

Actually I think Lictors should get the same deployment rules as the Dark Eldar Special Character, The Decapitator. Extremely fitting for a unit like the Lictor:

"Decapitator is a supreme master at infiltrating an enemy army. Do not deploy him using the normal rules, even in scenarios that don't normally allow infiltration to be used. Instead write down where on the table Decapitator is hiding (this must be outside both sides' deployment zones). You may reveal his location at any time by simply showing your opponent Decapitator's hidden set-up instructions. You must, however, reveal his location on your third turn if you have not done so already."

I think its time to get some real updates from some red shirts. all the speculation is getting me very excited.

Necros wrote:
If your only interest is in competitive playing, then just buy 2-3 boxes of whatever is new, and your army will crush everything This goes for every army, not just nids

I think Chaos Possessed and Spawn would like to have a word with you.