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...Sometimes it skips a generation.

With cruddance at the helm, I expect they will reduce the cost of gaunts and warriors and bundle some nifty ability to make swarm more viable. They won't really fix the real issues with gaunt viability though, so peoiple will ignore or take min gaunts as now. (aka much like CSS and vets are great but infantry platoons are kinda meh even with the boosts and point decreases).

And carnifexes will likely still be good, but will compete with the trygon for slot (which will be amazing) and biovores (which will also be goodlike IG artillery) so will not be taken as much. I suspect carnifexes will get a boost in some way, but will become more expensive in the process to balance them (eg like most of the non-grunts in the IG codex). They may even give a multi carni per slot option but if they do so the cheapest viable carni will weigh in at 160-180 points.

In the end I think they will attempt to make gaunts and swams viable but in the process will screw it up and just change what is spammed instead of gaunts. I hope I am wrong though.

Actually I think Lictors should get the same deployment rules as the Dark Eldar Special Character, The Decapitator. Extremely fitting for a unit like the Lictor:

Wasn't that pretty much the 3ed lictor rules? I really dislike those kinds of rules to be honest. Lictors should be able to stalk their prey, so when they appear it should be near prey.

Personally if Rambo can pop up anywhere then lictors should be able to also. Then add some sort of test perhaps that would let lictors assault that turn (eg an I test for the lictor or I test or ld test for the unit the lictor wants to assault). Or just allow em to assault as long as they show up in area terrain -- that may justify their current point cost.

I imagine the Biovore to end up more like the Marine Thunderflare, both in general size and flexible modes of fire, with the same sort of use.

The lictor should generally be able to do that, its just important to realize marbo dies easily, a lictor doesn't you give that sort of ability to something that can actually survive and it could quickly become broken.
(I'm imagining those pictures of a small fish about to be eaten by a larger fish and the larger fish about to be eaten by an even larger fish, but with marbo attacking stealers and a lictor popping up behind him.)

winterman wrote:With cruddance at the helm, I expect they will reduce the cost of gaunts and warriors and bundle some nifty ability to make swarm more viable.

And carnifexes will likely still be good, but will compete with the trygon for slot (which will be amazing) and biovores (which will also be goodlike IG artillery) so will not be taken as much.

Ork Boyz dropped to 6 points, and Guardsmen also dropped, so Gaunts will definitely cost fewer points. And they're Troops. So GW will be sure to make money selling Gaunt boxes. That's a given.

Warriors can have the nifty ability of BS4, along with Eternal Warrior. With W2 and the ability to take varied weapons/biomorphs, they'll be awesome Elites, and not need a points cut.

Carnfexes will be "good" like a Wraithlord is "good". Enjoy.

Biovores won't be godlike IG artillery, because IG are an artillery army, whereas Nids are a swarm army.

I actually think a Gaunt points cut isn't a slam dunk. For one thing, I don't think points cost has anything to do with their effectiveness. The morale issue is really the thing, with CC effectiveness being a secondary issue.

What made the best 3rd edition codex armies go was really Scythegaunts with hive nodes supported by synapse fearlessness without a No Retreat rule. There were obviously other factors that we commonplace, like rending mutants, etc. But Scythegaunts really represented your best bang for your buck.

Hive nodes are probably gone for good, and that's fine. But if you give Gaunts a CC boost (again, base WS4 and counting spinefists as 2 CCWs would be an easy, elegant solution) and address morale (again, treating synapse similar to God of War is also an easy solution), I think they'll operate pretty well. They'll grind and tarpit just fine, at least. A points drop would give them a boost if they fixed morale too. But the morale is the thing. And a lower-point Gaunt that's no more effective than before isn't going to push Gaunt boxes.

Of course, it's hard to grind down or tarpit anything if you can't get them out of their transports. But that's a different issue, albeit maybe the overarching issue for the army.

@John: However, Tyranids have been more and less of a swarm army at various times in their history. They've been re-envisioned more than once, and it's not impossible that the new codex will see some important differences from the Chambers and Kelly books.

I also think Biovores could easily get a major boost. It's just that you might not be able to spam them like IG can spam ordnance. Personally, I think that's the kind of design work that's gotten them in trouble in the past. "We'll give them guns but make them ineffective and expensive because we don't think Tyranids should be all about guns," etc. I think/hope they've moved beyond that kind of reasoning. You don't intentionally hamstring units if you want to limit them...you make them a viable option but restrict their use.

It's also possible that we'll see other, less conventional approaches to anti-vehicle, such as weapons/organisms that operate like Bomb Squigs or something. Just kinda seems like that's an approach they might take rather than the straightforward guns and ordnance approach. Anti-vehicle rippers?

I'd forgotten about Genestealer Cult - now that I'd love to see returning, it was so characterful. Wouldn't have to be fancy, just an option where a particular HQ choice (presumably some sort of Magus) would allow Cultists (similar to IG) as a troops choice. But rules for Limousine transports and other Culty units would be cool too, although most could be done with 'counts as', I suppose...

Necros wrote:synapse creatures should also be able to sacrifice d3 or d6 gaunts in synapse range to kill them off, so that if someone decides to be "smart" and leave just 1 gaunt standing and avoid it so the unit can't come back, you can kill it off yourself.

It sounds like a good idea, but I think it would have to come with some restrictions, ie being unable to do it while they're in your opponent's close combat... if you're losing the combat, but pass the Ld check, you could just kill them off and have your shooty gaunts sitting 7" away and just onload - a little unfair. Maybe making it something like only on your turn, not in CC, etc. would make it more viable. I do like the idea though.

Necros wrote:And gaunts should come with special movement trays so that your movement phase doesn't take 12 hours.

Try playing Apocalypse with Tyranids. I don't think I've ever been the first to set up successfully (excluding just putting them all in a heap on the table).

Gaunts need a point reduction, its the easy fix. Likewise Termagants need a point reduction, and need to be toned down alot. I play cc-only nids, the way they SHOULD be played if you ask me. I want cc gaunts for troops, but I don't want to pay that many points per model for rules like leaping etc. All I want is a simple gaunt with scything talons (or maybe even rending claws for a bit more), and the option to upgrade them with leaping, etc. if I so choose.

I played gautns in apocalypse once and only once and never again ever since I've done nidzilla. 7 deep striking fexes will make any marine poo themselves instantly.

gorgon wrote:Gaunt(s) ...The morale issue is really the thing...Of course, it's hard to grind down or tarpit anything if you can't get them out of their transports...the overarching issue for the army.

Way to get to the point

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/08/40k-rumors-tyranid-tidbits.html

Now I know the BoLS isn't exactly super reliable, and they tend to just spit things back out through the rumour mill, but it's at least something to think about.
If they're right, I like the idea of the winged Tyrants... Converting mine was a pain and it'd be a hell of a lot easier converting a set of wings that's already supposed to go on the model. And PLASTICS. No more top-heavy Tyrants for me!

If it's right, bringing Biovores back into contention will be a big boost for 'Nid players.

I've always wanted to use biovores, but haven't because the rules have always sucked and the models have sucked worse. I actually like the "grounded bat" look the oldest one has over the "thats actually a sporesack, not my junk" ork biovore and the latest "hormone therapy pre-op" biovore.

Sorry if thats out of line, but it's all I can think of when I see those things.

I've always loved my biovores, I really hope they get a good boost. It's rare that they kill enough to make their points back though, but they're still fun to play with. I might be interested in a winged tyrant if that's true, and even though I have a trygon I converted from a fex I'm sure I'll end up buying one of those.

Those are the same Warpshadow rumors that I referenced earlier. Although I *think* the original poster (Terrorfex on that site) wasn't sure about the plastic Tyrant. I wonder if that might be a second wave item. The original rumors also didn't specifically mention Biovores, just that antitank would be increased (which could mean almost anything).

Even if all they do is take away the venom cannon's always glance thing that alone would be a big help

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/08/40k-rumors-tyranid-tidbits.html

BOLS wrote:Codex is in the can is written by Robin Cruddace

As a non-Nid player with a Codex written by same, all I can say is...

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


____

OK, it's a little mean, but at least Nids won't be overpowered compared to my IG.

GW really wanted to do the Hive Tyrant in plastic the previous time around it just didn't work out. If they do one in plastic they will want to give you as many reasons to use it as possible. One such way is creating rules that make a wing tyrant and make him real nasty, then include wings in the kit. That fits right into GW's marketting plans to, include $0.10 worth of plastic in the form of wings so they can put in a larger box and charge you $35 for a single model, that laden with so many bits you only need 10% of them.

I think Robbin Crud-dance(sp?) could have done worse. I really don't think he did a bad job. While IG are not this uber death machine and a good number of weird things stick out its not a broken list and its not a cheesy list. That's enough for me to have fun.

They already charge $45 for the metal Tyrant, IIRC. I don't think that'll change.


If it does go to plastic, I hope it at least retains it's sculpt quality. It's a nice model.

I actually think in the instance of the Tyrant it will drop, unless they really change the model or make it dramatically bigger.

Don't they usually make plastic models cheaper than metal versions when they're released? If so I'd expect the plastic hive tyrant to be $39.75, followed by a 20% price increase in around 3.4 months. They'll do the increase across the board just so no one knows they're singling out the tyrant.

step 1: release new tyrant
step 2: raise prices
step 3: ???
step 4: Profit!!

Price *drop*? LOL.

Did we learn nothing from the Empire Greatswords becoming plastic?

At best, expect the price to remain the same, like the 40k SM Terminators.

If the price changes at all, GW will *increase* the price to $52.50 to follow the new pricing scheme.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necros wrote:Don't they usually make plastic models cheaper than metal versions when they're released? If so I'd expect the plastic hive tyrant to be $39.75, followed by a 20% price increase in around 3.4 months. They'll do the increase across the board just so no one knows they're singling out the tyrant.

The Valkyrie was originally going to be offered at $50, but when GW realised that the model would sell, they shamelessly bumped the price to $57. Why would GW lower the price on the HT if they can get more money?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
As a non-Nid player with a Codex written by same, all I can say is...

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


____

OK, it's a little mean, but at least Nids won't be overpowered compared to my IG.

John, that's a little ironic.

It might be said that the new IG codex is more attractive to new players than IG vets because it cut the imbalanced doctrine options and the resulting doctrine-based lists in favor of a more balanced approach. The book still gives plenty of flexibility, and puts a lot of the fluff back in the hands of the players.

Does that sound familiar in a different context?

The Steam Tank went up to $60, didn't it. Not a good sign.

What I hate about GW is the fact that they never seem to re-do any of the armies that actually need re-doing> for example, they haven't redone GK since WD 281. That's nearly 100 issues ago! What we need is a FLGS that actually listens to us and passes on messages to the almighty WW.

MC

gorgon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
As a non-Nid player with a Codex written by same, all I can say is...

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


____

OK, it's a little mean, but at least Nids won't be overpowered compared to my IG.

John, that's a little ironic.

It might be said that the new IG codex is more attractive to new players than IG vets because it cut the imbalanced doctrine options and the resulting doctrine-based lists in favor of a more balanced approach. The book still gives plenty of flexibility, and puts a lot of the fluff back in the hands of the players.

Does that sound familiar in a different context?

I have no idea what you're talking about...

Of course, part of my personal issues with New Guard is that Doctrine Guard weren't top tier before, plus, there are lots of interesting FW whatnots that would have been easy to integrate into a new Guard book that weren't for whatever reason. Oh, well.

So has anyone explored the idea of mixed swarms? Like being able to include Tyranid Warriors in Termagant swarms, or having something like the Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon rule where certain broods could mob up into a swarm?

Like Kroxigor in Skinks?

Yeah. But moreso in the 40k vein of Black Templars (Neophytes and Initiates) and Space Wolves (squads including Terminator Armoured Wolf Guard) and so on.

Of all the editions of 40k, 5th is best suited to playing a variety of models in a unit. Having Termagants there to soak wounds for Warriors, while having that indigenous Synapse seems like it would really play up the Tyranid swarm idea. After all, what gives people the most fits but so-called 'hidden' Power Fists and so on?

OK, yeah, I could see that working for shooting, but not so much for HtH.

If that were the case, all that would be needed would be for Warriors units purchased as a single model to have an Independant Character option.

Or Tyranid Warriors could be purchased like Warlocks, with them otherwise forming a bodyguard to a Hive Tyrant.

How do you figure it wouldn't work for close combat? Shooting would be the crux, with Tyranid Warriors combining the roles of Sergeant and Weapon Specialist, so you would have to choose between a unit that only the Warrior(s) could reach/affect, and a unit the whole swarm could reach/affect. Close combat would be no different than having separate units of Warriors and Termagants in close combat, with savings coming from not having No Retreat! wounds multiply out across units.