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pretre wrote:Inquisitors can make/get far more things than they could in the previous books.

Sigh. This is how nerd rage rumors start.

I only said lack of... not complete disapearance of...
At any rate they could have made the codex so much cooler.
They could have done it like they did the DE but with less spiky bits and sadists.

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Even so: most of the stuff we saw introduced was at least hinted at beforehand in the novels, etc.

Tyrannofex/Tervigon/Venomthrope/Pyrovore/etc
Sternguard/Vanguard/Thunderfire Cannons (those might have been in novels)
Cronos/Venom
Thunderwolf Cav
Soulgrinder
Deffkoptas (might be in previous fluff)
Vespid / Skyray

Venom is by no feat of the imagination a 'new' item. It's old, as in Index Astartes and Harlequin armies old. The Cronos is new, but honestly: Dark Eldar needed a ton of work, period, to be fleshed out to an acceptable level.

Soulgrinder is a bit forgivable, since it's not really a 'new' piece but rather a 'character' version of something that already existed.

Vespids were new.

Skyrays were not. Nor were Piranhas, or even Tetras(which weren't added into the codex).

Deffkoptas weren't new.

Sternguard/Vanguard also weren't really "new", they were just "specialized" if that makes sense. Previously, in fluff, veterans were just called 'veterans'. Vanguard and Sternguard just kind of clarify what they ended up specializing in after their veterancy.

Of the Tyranids, I think the only thing that I hadn't heard of in some form or another in fluff was the Tervigon/Tyrannofex. Trygon was old(published in IA4), Venomthrope and Pyrovore had been kinda/sorta described before but never really given names.

Thunderwolves by no means were 'new'. But honestly, I would have been more surprised to find out they weren't ridden by the Space Wolves at some point.

I mean really. A wolf that can be as big as a freaking APC, and some Space Wolf hasn't gotten blackout drunk off Fenrisian Ale and said "Hey, you lot...watch this!".

Kanluwen wrote:
The Cronos is new, but honestly: Dark Eldar needed a ton of work, period, to be fleshed out to an acceptable level.
Vespids were new.
Of the Tyranids, I think the only thing that I hadn't heard of in some form or another in fluff was the Tervigon/Tyrannofex.

So you're saying you agree and there were new things added recently that didn't previously exist in the fluff other than the DK/SR?

Thunderwolves by no means were 'new'. But honestly, I would have been more surprised to find out they weren't ridden by the Space Wolves at some point. I mean really. A wolf that can be as big as a freaking APC, and some Space Wolf hasn't gotten blackout drunk off Fenrisian Ale and said "Hey, you lot...watch this!".

Where were TW mentioned previously? Not fenrisian wolves, but Thunderwolves.

I mean, I love TWC, both as an idea and as a rule, but it was a pretty big leap.

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The Cronos is new, but honestly: Dark Eldar needed a ton of work, period, to be fleshed out to an acceptable level.
Vespids were new.
Of the Tyranids, I think the only thing that I hadn't heard of in some form or another in fluff was the Tervigon/Tyrannofex.

So you're saying you agree and there were new things added recently that didn't previously exist in the fluff other than the DK/SR?

This is where you are ->. Here's my point-------------------------------------------->.

You missed it by a mile, Pretre. Vespids, Cronos, Tervigons, and Tyrannofexes are acceptable.
Vespids because, one, the Tau never had a real 'set' list of xenos allies that they employed. It's feasible to assume that the Vespid just hadn't made it to widespread use, since the Tau Empire Codex actually was a progression of the timeline(of sorts).
Tervigons and Tyrannofexes are acceptable because at the very least, the Tervigon(or something like it--but unnamed) had existed previously. Plus again: Tyranids are an adaptable race, and the book did present a progression of sorts.
The Cronos is acceptable because as mentioned--The Dark Eldar needed alot of work.
Grey Knights, on the other hand, were pretty damned well fleshed out. They didn't need the Dreadknight, since their Terminators and Dreadnoughts served that role.

Thunderwolves by no means were 'new'. But honestly, I would have been more surprised to find out they weren't ridden by the Space Wolves at some point. I mean really. A wolf that can be as big as a freaking APC, and some Space Wolf hasn't gotten blackout drunk off Fenrisian Ale and said "Hey, you lot...watch this!".

Where were TW mentioned previously? Not fenrisian wolves, but Thunderwolves.
I mean, I love TWC, both as an idea and as a rule, but it was a pretty big leap.

Off the top of my head, I do remember them from Bill King's series regarding Ragnar. It was a small mention, but it was something along the lines of him describing a spear tipped with a Thunderwolf canine for the spearhead carried by a tribe's shaman, rather than the iron of most spears.

That's impossible.
The wolves of Fenris live on Asaheim not the islands.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?

Not all the tribes live on the islands. Nor are they restricted year round to the islands.

Kanluwen wrote:This is where you are ->. Here's my point-------------------------------------------->.

You missed it by a mile, Pretre. Vespids, Cronos, Tervigons, and Tyrannofexes are acceptable.
Vespids because, one, the Tau never had a real 'set' list of xenos allies that they employed. It's feasible to assume that the Vespid just hadn't made it to widespread use, since the Tau Empire Codex actually was a progression of the timeline(of sorts).
Tervigons and Tyrannofexes are acceptable because at the very least, the Tervigon(or something like it--but unnamed) had existed previously. Plus again: Tyranids are an adaptable race, and the book did present a progression of sorts.
The Cronos is acceptable because as mentioned--The Dark Eldar needed alot of work.
Grey Knights, on the other hand, were pretty damned well fleshed out. They didn't need the Dreadknight, since their Terminators and Dreadnoughts served that role.

No, I get your point. You have arbitrarily decided what is acceptable, well fleshed out, not well fleshed out, etc. New things happen. One could say that many armies were well fleshed out when they came out in 2nd edition, but things have always been added. You just happen not to like one of them, so have tried to make it that it is a huge departure from given fluff, blah blah blah. It's not. GW makes crap up and adds it to codexes. It has been going on since the game started. Don't make it more than it is.

Off the top of my head, I do remember them from Bill King's series regarding Ragnar. It was a small mention, but it was something along the lines of him describing a spear tipped with a Thunderwolf canine for the spearhead carried by a tribe's shaman, rather than the iron of most spears.

Just checked. The combination of words 'Thunderwolf' or 'Thunder wolf' do not appear in any of the first three books of Bill King's series. Good try though.

Kanluwen wrote:Trygon was old(published in IA4), Venomthrope and Pyrovore had been kinda/sorta described before but never really given names.

Ok Kan, now you're just reaching. All of the things Pretre mentioned (aside from a few like Skyrays and Deff Koptaz) were pulled out of thin air. They are new units. Please don't pretend that just becuase you don't like the Dreadknight that it is somehow different to these out-of-nowhere units that appeared in a Codex because GW needed something new to sell (which in some cases, like the Marine Codex, was completely justified and, IMO, necessary).

Having new units isn't a bad thing - it just falls apart when the new units are really terrible concepts (Thunder Wolves) or when decent concepts are realised badly (Chibi-Hawk, Dreadknight).

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:This is where you are ->. Here's my point-------------------------------------------->.

You missed it by a mile, Pretre. Vespids, Cronos, Tervigons, and Tyrannofexes are acceptable.
Vespids because, one, the Tau never had a real 'set' list of xenos allies that they employed. It's feasible to assume that the Vespid just hadn't made it to widespread use, since the Tau Empire Codex actually was a progression of the timeline(of sorts).
Tervigons and Tyrannofexes are acceptable because at the very least, the Tervigon(or something like it--but unnamed) had existed previously. Plus again: Tyranids are an adaptable race, and the book did present a progression of sorts.
The Cronos is acceptable because as mentioned--The Dark Eldar needed alot of work.
Grey Knights, on the other hand, were pretty damned well fleshed out. They didn't need the Dreadknight, since their Terminators and Dreadnoughts served that role.

No, I get your point. You have arbitrarily decided what is acceptable, well fleshed out, not well fleshed out, etc. New things happen. One could say that many armies were well fleshed out when they came out in 2nd edition, but things have always been added. You just happen not to like one of them, so have tried to make it that it is a huge departure from given fluff, blah blah blah. It's not. GW makes crap up and adds it to codexes. It has been going on since the game started. Don't make it more than it is.

Except things haven't really "always been added".

Where's the new units for Eldar? How about for the Imperial Guard before this last edition? If anything, 3rd edition Guard lost options when it went to 4th. Or hey, how about the Dark Angels?

Daemonhunters(and by extension the Grey Knights) were well fleshed out.
Dark Eldar, by contrast, were a holdover from a time where they really were just still 'spiky Eldar'.
The same can be said of Necrons, who although being fairly well-explored, really need an overhaul just because some of the pieces about them just never really 'fit' well.

Tyranids and Tau, however, are fleshed out. The problem is?
Part of that established background for them...is that they're constantly evolving and adding on to their current structure.

I will give you that yes, they do make additions. But more often than not: those additions are well-thought out and well-structured, not to mention introduced through outside sources like Forge World and the Black Library.

This is one of those instances where they should have done it that way.

Off the top of my head, I do remember them from Bill King's series regarding Ragnar. It was a small mention, but it was something along the lines of him describing a spear tipped with a Thunderwolf canine for the spearhead carried by a tribe's shaman, rather than the iron of most spears.

Just checked. The combination of words 'Thunderwolf' or 'Thunder wolf' do not appear in any of the first three books of Bill King's series. Good try though.

Then I may be recalling a short story or any number of things. He didn't just write books y'know

I will give you that yes, they do make additions. But more often than not: those additions are well-thought out and well-structured, not to mention introduced through outside sources like Forge World and the Black Library.

This is one of those instances where they should have done it that way.

Maybe they should have, but it is not unprecedented. I think that having new things that weren't in the fluff is okay as long as they make sense. The DK and SR make sense for me.

GKs were hardly fleshed out. In the last codex they literally had two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads to give you "variations". I for one welcome the new amount of stuff. The Dreadknight, though, I do admit the rules are an asspull (although so was the Storm Raven, and the Thunderwolves, and space jesus, and JotWW, and, oh my i've gone crosseyed).

Also, the "predecessor" to the Tervigon was the Norn Queen. The thing, you know, was too huge to even leave the hive ship? Aside from both being baby cannons (which the Biovore does well too) there's little in common with both. The Tyrannofex is just barely acceptable, given that Gunfexes were rather popular.

Also, as far as Thunderwolves go, Space Wolves always had Fenrisian Wolves. While a cool and obvious idea for them to actually ride on the wolves, it's still an asspull.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:GKs were hardly fleshed out. In the last codex they literally had two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads to give you "variations". I for one welcome the new amount of stuff. The Dreadknight, though, I do admit the rules are an asspull (although so was the Storm Raven, and the Thunderwolves, and space jesus, and JotWW, and, oh my i've gone crosseyed).

"Two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads" does not necessarily mean "hardly fleshed out".

Or would you call the Sisters of Battle "hardly fleshed out", even though their forces are the exact same thing?

And yes: I'm purposely discounting the Ecclesiarchal forces because they're not technically "Sisters of Battle".

Also, the "predecessor" to the Tervigon was the Norn Queen. The thing, you know, was too huge to even leave the hive ship? Aside from both being baby cannons (which the Biovore does well too) there's little in common with both. The Tyrannofex is just barely acceptable, given that Gunfexes were rather popular.

There was actually something else as well. The Norn Queen is the 'overall' breeder, but there was mention in the Last Chancers novels of something that walked around spawning Gaunts.

The Tyrannofex is more acceptable when you think of it as a 'baby' Hierophant mixed with a Barbed Hierodule.

Also, as far as Thunderwolves go, Space Wolves always had Fenrisian Wolves. While a cool and obvious idea for them to actually ride on the wolves, it's still an asspull.

I think with Thunderwolves, at least in my opinion, there was wiggle room and they just named something to differentiate it from the 'generic' version.

Because I am seriously remembering that Fenrisian Wolves have previously been mentioned as 'rarely getting to be the size of Rhino APCs'. That may be the case here, where they just opted to make those rarities a full fledged separate species.

Kanluwen wrote:Where's the new units for Eldar? How about for the Imperial Guard before this last edition? If anything, 3rd edition Guard lost options when it went to 4th. Or hey, how about the Dark Angels?

Ok now you're really reaching. These books you're talking about are very old in comparison to the new crop, and this 'new units out of nowhere' started with the Marine Codex at the start of 5th, so looking at Codices before then is pointless (and a stretch - or a reach). This is about the economics of releasing new models, recutting old sprues, and what you base new releases around. If there is enough genuine 'new' stuff you can make for existing unit types then there's no reason to invent new things.

The Dark Angels didn't get any new units because they completely new models/upgrades to represent regular DA's and the Ravenwing, plus the plastic Dev Box was the big Marine release from that time (IIRC). The Eldar didn't get new units (aside from Harlis, but they're not new) because they got enough of their range re-done to not require it (redone Reapers, Scorps, Bansheers, Fire Dragons, new Hari models, plastic Dire Avengers, new Farseers, new War Walker, new Wraithlord). Chaos got plastic Termies, Termy Lord and Possessed - they were the centre of that release - plus a re-cut CSM sprue, some special Chars, and the Spawn. No need for much new there. Orks? There were so many gaps in the Ork line that the need for new units wasn't there as they still hadn't finished making the old ones from the previous Codex, but still we got a replacement Trukk and eventually even new Dreadz/Kanz. Who needs new units when you can redesign very old models and make them fit the current aesthetic? Daemons were a completely new force, a bit like Necrons and Tau the first time around, so aren't really applicable for this discussion.

But the Marines on the hand had been painted into a corner. What could be done with them? Well, re-cutting the Land Speeder and Land Raider Crusader to remove the remaining hybrid kits from the range was a start, and they added the Redeemer, but as I've said on many occasions you cannot base a new Codex release around re-cuts of existing models unless that model is very old, and the Tactical Squad (and by extension the Commander, Command Squad and Assault Squad) was only re-done for 4th, so it's not old enough yet. So there has to be something new, and a Drop Pod isn’t the most exciting thing in the world This is why the Vanguard, Sternguard and Thunderfire Cannon were retconned into the fluff. Saying that Van/Sternguard had always been there just not fleshed out is a cop-out - they are new units. They never existed before, their rules and fluff are all new, and while there's nothing wrong with that, it is an example of new units being added.

Guard? Well, you can’t base a release around a plastic version of a Command Squad and a re-cut Sentinel, so we’ll take the Valk and make that common place. The Guard release was centred around that. But even then they added a stack of new tanks (or took FW versions and added them in).

Space Wolves? Not a huge need for new models because, like with the Dark Angels, the release is centred around a new general Space Wolf kit (appropriate given the age of the original Space Wolf upgrade frame). There are a few new units (Lone Wolves, Thunderwolf Derp-ery), but it’s not like the Marines where new stuff needed to be added because there was enough ‘new’ stuff with the upgrades to base the release around.

Tyranids? Wow! New units galore. They were re-cutting the Gaunts, but again, can’t do a release based around re-cut sprues, much less Gaunts. The Hive Tyrant had already been re-done last time, so doing it in plastic was a bit soon. Already done the Carnifex. They could have re-done the Warriors, but, again, can’t base a release around re-cuts, so we’ve got to add something new! Cheapest way to add something new is to do it in metal – Pyrovores, Hive Guard, Venomthrope – but we’ll keep going and throw in three big beasties. We’ll do the Trygon now as the design already exists, and get the Venomthrope/Tyrannofex done later. These are all new, because they can’t just re-do the same models over and over again.

Blood Angels? Ok, can’t really make the whole release revolve around plastic Death Company, and all the other Marine models already exist? What’s GW to do? Ah! Sanguinary Guard – aka the Veteran Veteran Assault Squad. But we need something big... re-done Dread won’t be enough... squashed Thunderhawk! Along comes the Storm Raven. A new unit.

We’ll see it with the Tau when they come along. We might see it with the Necrons (but they might be like the Eldar were in 4th and have enough stuff that needs updating into plastic that they might not need too many new units). Even the Grey Knights had a bit of it, but that’s like the Space Wolves and leveraging the modular nature of the existing kits to create a bunch of new units (or re-imagined units).

This is the way things work now. In some cases its necessary (Marines and even, arguably, the Tyranids). Sometimes it’s not. But please stop trying to place the Dreadknight above every other ‘new’ unit like it’s some sort of drastic departure from what GW has been doing with every Codex since 5th Ed Marines.

Kanluwen wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:GKs were hardly fleshed out. In the last codex they literally had two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads to give you "variations". I for one welcome the new amount of stuff. The Dreadknight, though, I do admit the rules are an asspull (although so was the Storm Raven, and the Thunderwolves, and space jesus, and JotWW, and, oh my i've gone crosseyed).

"Two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads" does not necessarily mean "hardly fleshed out".

Or would you call the Sisters of Battle "hardly fleshed out", even though their forces are the exact same thing?

And yes: I'm purposely discounting the Ecclesiarchal forces because they're not technically "Sisters of Battle".

Also, the "predecessor" to the Tervigon was the Norn Queen. The thing, you know, was too huge to even leave the hive ship? Aside from both being baby cannons (which the Biovore does well too) there's little in common with both. The Tyrannofex is just barely acceptable, given that Gunfexes were rather popular.

There was actually something else as well. The Norn Queen is the 'overall' breeder, but there was mention in the Last Chancers novels of something that walked around spawning Gaunts.

The Tyrannofex is more acceptable when you think of it as a 'baby' Hierophant mixed with a Barbed Hierodule.

Also, as far as Thunderwolves go, Space Wolves always had Fenrisian Wolves. While a cool and obvious idea for them to actually ride on the wolves, it's still an asspull.

I think with Thunderwolves, at least in my opinion, there was wiggle room and they just named something to differentiate it from the 'generic' version.

Because I am seriously remembering that Fenrisian Wolves have previously been mentioned as 'rarely getting to be the size of Rhino APCs'. That may be the case here, where they just opted to make those rarities a full fledged separate species.

Fenrisian Wolves were mentioned to be huge, but I dont remember any being called "Rhino APC" huge. The Tyrannofex I see as a necessity in Nids lists, since it and the Trygon basically took on the range and close combat roles (respectively) of the Carnifex, who's points were jacked up but got nerfed in the process too.

As for sisters of battle, In addition to the Heroine, Celestian and normal SoB squads (and by extension Retributor and Dominion Squads) they also had Sisters Repentia and Seraphim Squads (which actually had their basic equipment being different than their parent SoB squad). They also had two tanks unique to them, the Immolator and Exorcist. Their special Character was also different in that it wasnt just a "special" version of any normal unit you could take, but was unique (especially her resurrection rule and her wings). The Grey Knights literally only had PAGKs and TAGKs, with the odd dread or so (but personally they weren't that different from normal Space Marine Dreads). Hardly the exact same thing, and the Sister's force felt way more fleshed out than one or two units shoehorned into roles because the writers couldnt think of anything.

We'll have to agree to disagree overall, but a few points:

The Immolator wasn't really "unique" before the Witchhunters book. It's essentially the same line of thinking that led to the Razorback--except they used a Repressor as the base. The Exorcist, previous to its "giant honking organ" incarnation was the same thing--except with rocket launchers.

The Seraphim, frankly, are the same thing as a 'normal' SoB squad if you're going to say that the 'Teleport Attack' squads were the same as the standard ones just because it was the base to work from. The only difference the Seraphim had was weapons and a jetpack, but that's a minor thing. They're still Sisters of Battle, but with jetpacks and twin pistols.

Repentia were new in the Witchhunters book from what I recall though.

The Saint was 'meh'. She's still a Sister of Battle, just with some futzy rules when you get down to it.

I'll also note that she fits the theme of the army.

The Grey Knights, prior to the Daemonhunters book, pretty much were just Terminator armored guys who dressed in grey and had polearms with guns in them.

During 2nd Ed (and Space Hulk) that's what Grey Knights were. The first Grey Knight list didn't even have Terminators.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:GKs were hardly fleshed out. In the last codex they literally had two squads and just shifted the unit composition within said squads to give you "variations".

And before that, Grey Knights all wore Terminator Armour. So pretty much the entire codex was just as much 'pulled out of thin air' as the Dreadknight in this one

The only problem I have with the dex honestly is they shoved everything Inquisition related into one Squad; and the Inquisitors themselves.

insaniak wrote:And before that, Grey Knights all wore Terminator Armour. So pretty much the entire codex was just as much 'pulled out of thin air' as the Dreadknight in this one

And, as I just said, before that none of the Grey Knights wore Terminator Armour.

I think the points to take from this are:

1. The Dreadknight has been pulled out of thin air and not everyone is happy with that.
2. The more egregious affront to the Grey Knights was their Jervisification into just another Marine Chapter (WS4, ATSKNF, Combat Squads).
3. Matt Ward can't write fluff.
4. I was right about Inquisitorial armies being invalidated.

I think it's funny that you criticize Matt Ward's 'righting'

If the GK's get a mech like this...does anyone want to imagine what the next Tau codex will hold?!

Retribution wrote:If the GK's get a mech like this...does anyone want to imagine what the next Tau codex will hold?!

Ah, but you see. Tau are xenos, so they will get a reasonable well balanced codex, as opposed to the posterboys.

Kanluwen wrote:Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?

Not all the tribes live on the islands. Nor are they restricted year round to the islands.

They kind of are...
None of them live on Asaheim at any rate, in the very same books it mentions how Russ forbade that anyoe be allowed to live there.
But, this is geting OT.

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's funny that you criticize Matt Ward's 'righting'

I think it's amusing that you're so anti-Dreadknight yet can't see the woods for the trees and realise how many other Codices have had 'new' units inserted out of no where into the fluff as if they were always there.

Kanluwen wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree overall, but a few points:

The Immolator wasn't really "unique" before the Witchhunters book. It's essentially the same line of thinking that led to the Razorback--except they used a Repressor as the base. The Exorcist, previous to its "giant honking organ" incarnation was the same thing--except with rocket launchers.

The Seraphim, frankly, are the same thing as a 'normal' SoB squad if you're going to say that the 'Teleport Attack' squads were the same as the standard ones just because it was the base to work from. The only difference the Seraphim had was weapons and a jetpack, but that's a minor thing. They're still Sisters of Battle, but with jetpacks and twin pistols.

Repentia were new in the Witchhunters book from what I recall though.

The Saint was 'meh'. She's still a Sister of Battle, just with some futzy rules when you get down to it.

I'll also note that she fits the theme of the army.

The Grey Knights, prior to the Daemonhunters book, pretty much were just Terminator armored guys who dressed in grey and had polearms with guns in them.

So these minor differences are just as insignificant as what differentiates you from just another "hater"?

In all seriousness though. Repentia are Sisters of Battle, and are quite different from any comparable "Space Marine" squad at the time (even now too, as I cant imagine a SM squad with a low armor save charging in with Powerfists) and the other squads were at least variations. The Grey Knight Teleport squad was literally a normal PAGK squad that was taken as a FA choice and given Deepstrike. They werent even given their own entry, just a box mentioning it was an option. Sisters might have not been original, but at least they had variety and were decently "fleshed out". Seraphims were also different in that they had two pistols and used it in a different and awesome way, something only Creed ever did. Repentia in particular really fleshed out the sisters as a sort of religious army, you hear about the punishments and stuff happening, but the Sisters actually had a unit that showed this.

Kanluwen wrote:...do make additions. But more often than not: those additions are well-thought out and well-structured...

So well thought out they don't even make miniatures for them?
I don't think they (new units) are usually well thought out at all, especially when they are high powered units. At least GK Voltron here got a model (before the 11 units in the Tyranid codex who still need one...).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's funny that you criticize Matt Ward's 'righting'

I think it's amusing that you're so anti-Dreadknight yet can't see the woods for the trees and realise how many other Codices have had 'new' units inserted out of no where into the fluff as if they were always there.

You'll notice I actually clarified my position. I do know that there are 'new' units inserted out of nowhere into the background, but many of them have been introduced in various ways previously or with some kind of caveat.
I mean, we're not seeing the Thunderfire Cannon being what killed Horus. When that kind of thing happens, that's what irks me.

I just think that the Dreadknight could have been done better in two different ways:
1)Execution
2)Introduction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Augustus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:...do make additions. But more often than not: those additions are well-thought out and well-structured...

So well thought out they don't even make miniatures for them?
I don't think they (new units) are usually well thought out at all, especially when they are high powered units. At least GK Voltron here got a model (before the 11 units in the Tyranid codex who still need one...).

I really can't think of too many "high powered units" that irked me in terms of how they were added in.

Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".

When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Retribution wrote:If the GK's get a mech like this...does anyone want to imagine what the next Tau codex will hold?!

Ah, but you see. Tau are xenos, so they will get a reasonable well balanced codex, as opposed to the posterboys.

Well crap :(

Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".

When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.

I think I will sig this and call you on it when 6th ed rolls around

(yes I am willing to wait that long)

4. I was right about Inquisitorial armies being invalidated.

How are they? we still have Coteaz right?