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gharg
I dont like defilers. they attract alot of fire and arent tough enough to withstand it. the close combat ability is kind of unimportant if the thing never lives long enough to get stuck in....

agree with you about dreads. they, like so much else in the current edition of our book, are silly.
AF

I like the Defiler

Sure it's a prime target, but laying waste with the BC while advancing to tear people apart in CC is always worth it

but the problem is that the Defiler is a CC unit with a long range weapon. to me that does not compute

ghargatuloth wrote:but the problem is that the Defiler is a CC unit with a long range weapon. to me that does not compute

It just means the defiler is multi-functional. Generally i go all CC arms and Battlecannon. Then i deploy as close to enemy as possible. Move and shoot as much as possible, if the battle cannon is blown off he fleets to victory! Usually works pretty well for me.

if i run 1, usually I will run it behind either a LR or 2 rhinos and pop smoke. that way it gets cover saves.

Obliterators are not more competitive or better than Defilers, Obliterators are just a lot easier to use than Defilers. If you know how to use a defiler a player can get more out of a defiler than it's equal cost in Obliterators (which is only 2 obliterators) Oblits are very easy to use, but they pay for that in the form of a high point cost. Obliterators are also very expensive for a single lascannon or single plasma cannon shot.

AV12 vehicles behind cover are difficult to pop, and defilers in cover are rarely shot at early in the game as long as lash princes are alive and Rhinos still have troops inside.

The best compliment I've ever received is opponents calling my list "soft" at a tournament after I've won games. I run very light on heavy support in 2k games at a little over 300 points (defiler+ 1 squad of ML havocs). The heart of my army is mechanized troops supported by 3MC, along with the bulk of my points. I run a single firebase of the defiler, havocs, and a single PM squad with plasma guns to hold an objective in my deployment zone. Every other point in my army is invested into MC and my mechanized assault element. Most armies are so busy dealing with my troops and MC that they never get around to dealing with my firebase. Long range firepower against the firebase has to deal with a 4+ cover save, and as long as it's shooting at units in a 4+ cover save it's not shooting at my troops or MC. Assaulting the firebase is very difficult for a single unit because it could have to deal with a defiler, PM, 2 plasmaguns, and 4ML.

PM are a required element for the chaos firebase because in many missions the firebase will be on an objective, and a scoring unit on the objective is needed to win. If the PM are going to be on a static objective plasma guns work out well because they can reach out 24", and if anything starts to get close they can double tap. The weakness of PM are assault units with a lot of power weapons, and the weakness of assault units with a lot of power weapons tends to be walkers. The 2 units compliment each other quite well, and as long as the PM are on the ground floor there is still room on the top floor for Obliterators or Havocs. The addition of Oblits would make the firebase even more difficult to assault. 4 ML Havocs have more anti light/medium vehicle damage than 2 oblits (which is why I use them), but Obliterators would be far easier to use. The weakness of Obliterators in CC are units with a lot of power weapon attacks, the weakness of units with a lot a lot of power weapons are walkers. When bunkered down in a building Oblits & a defiler go together like peanut butter & jelly.

A firebase with a defiler, 3 oblits, and PM offers 3 units that complement and defend each other very well, and they will all benefit from a 4+ cover save against long ranged firepower. People can say it's "Not competitive" are either not effectively using defilers, or have never seen them used effectively.

1 defiler 1 land raider seems to be OK. Let your enemy choose which one to shoot at, and the usually choose the defiler - it's cheaper, but far spikier! Then the LR can just roll up the middle unmolested. Sad to use the defiler as a big bullseye, but most foes are terrified of seeing it reach base to base contact with their precious troops...

In a 2000+ army I run 3 Defilers and a small Termy squad in a LR. I hide a Defiler behind a smoked LR and make them choose then. Oh, it's fun to watch them deliberate in their shooting phase knowing a lot of pain is in store for them!

schadenfreude wrote:Obliterators are not more competitive or better than Defilers, Obliterators are just a lot easier to use than Defilers. If you know how to use a defiler a player can get more out of a defiler than it's equal cost in Obliterators (which is only 2 obliterators) Oblits are very easy to use, but they pay for that in the form of a high point cost. Obliterators are also very expensive for a single lascannon or single plasma cannon shot.

But I have run lists before with all obliterators and I get more out of them then I have in the past with my defilers.

ghargatuloth wrote:but the problem is that the Defiler is a CC unit with a long range weapon. to me that does not compute

That sounds like a good arrangement to me. If the Defiler was all CC and no guns, it would be useless in some games, as would the reverse be true also. There are some armies you want to get into HtH with and there are some armies you don't. The Defiler can have an active role against either type of opponent.

DarthDiggler wrote:

ghargatuloth wrote:but the problem is that the Defiler is a CC unit with a long range weapon. to me that does not compute

That sounds like a good arrangement to me. If the Defiler was all CC and no guns, it would be useless in some games, as would the reverse be true also. There are some armies you want to get into HtH with and there are some armies you don't. The Defiler can have an active role against either type of opponent.

If a defiler with 4 CCW fires it's battlecannon every round of the game it's done it's job as a long ranged unit.
If a defiler with 4 CCW parks behind cover guarding another unit or 2 that is vulnerable to assaults and they are never assaulted it's done it's job as a close combat walker.

I've had plenty of games where my defiler fulfilled both roles in the same game.

The defiler for me is a 50/50 unit. thats why im asking opinons on it

personally, the defiler is 1 of my most favourite units. You have a close combat monster and artillery to boot. His down side is his armor of 12 but keep him safe and you've got yourself a deadly unit be it melee or ranged

Thats the problem I have with it. Its a CC unit with artillery. It just dosent seem to work with me........

ghargatuloth wrote:Thats the problem I have with it. Its a CC unit with artillery. It just dosent seem to work with me........

By a similar comparison. Obliterators have terminator armor, a powerfist, short range anti-troop, long range anti-troop, long range anti-tank, and short range anti-tank. They can do some damage in CC and have multiple uses in shooting. Not so different from the defiler who has long range and close range abilities. Versatility is always a good thing to have. Think about broadsides, they carry a twin-linked railgun. Railgun is extremely good anti-tank but has no other possibilities. And while is is strength 10 ap1 it is still only 1 shot. A whorde ork army isnt going to fear this at all. Without a tank to fire at, the usefullness of a broadside is drastically decreased due to being so specifically set to anti-tank.

Defilers have the ability to adapt to different game situations how is this a bad thing?

mrwittwer wrote:A whorde ork army isnt going to fear this at all. Without a tank to fire at, the usefullness of a broadside is drastically decreased due to being so specifically set to anti-tank.

Agree with your main point, but the comparison doesn't work. The broadside is also armed with the Smart Missile System at range 24", S5, AP 5, Heavy 4. So, actually, they follow similar function, but different form.

mrwittwer wrote:

ghargatuloth wrote:Thats the problem I have with it. Its a CC unit with artillery. It just dosent seem to work with me........

By a similar comparison. Obliterators have terminator armor, a powerfist, short range anti-troop, long range anti-troop, long range anti-tank, and short range anti-tank. They can do some damage in CC and have multiple uses in shooting. Not so different from the defiler who has long range and close range abilities. Versatility is always a good thing to have. Think about broadsides, they carry a twin-linked railgun. Railgun is extremely good anti-tank but has no other possibilities. And while is is strength 10 ap1 it is still only 1 shot. A whorde ork army isnt going to fear this at all. Without a tank to fire at, the usefullness of a broadside is drastically decreased due to being so specifically set to anti-tank.

Defilers have the ability to adapt to different game situations how is this a bad thing?

but a defiler is either a CC unit or a long range unit. thats why I like the obliterators because they can do some damage at any range

ghargatuloth wrote:
but a defiler is either a CC unit or a long range unit. thats why I like the obliterators because they can do some damage at any range

Battlecannon has 72" range (longer than anything oblits have) and a 13" - 18" assault range.

But do what you wanna in the end.

They're nice because they force target prioritization : Do I want to kill the Battlecannon that will flatten my troops in a turn or the LR coming towards my lines?
If you do end up taking them, take a minimum of 2.

mrwittwer wrote:

ghargatuloth wrote:
but a defiler is either a CC unit or a long range unit. thats why I like the obliterators because they can do some damage at any range

Battlecannon has 72" range (longer than anything oblits have) and a 13" - 18" assault range.

But do what you wanna in the end.

Battle Cannon is large pie str8 ap3 shot, it's not chopped liver at long range.
Point for point 1 battlecannon is very comparable to 2 plasma cannons making a defiler comparable to 2 oblits in a pie throwing contest.

People never seem to complain about oblits going an entire 6 turn game without once using their power fists, so why is anybody complaining about a defiler shooting 6 battlecannon rounds in a battle without engaging in CC?

Defilers are awsome... One of my mates uses them and he wipes out anything in his way and the only time they die is when it gets into assults...............

schadenfreude wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:

ghargatuloth wrote:
but a defiler is either a CC unit or a long range unit. thats why I like the obliterators because they can do some damage at any range

Battlecannon has 72" range (longer than anything oblits have) and a 13" - 18" assault range.

But do what you wanna in the end.

Battle Cannon is large pie str8 ap3 shot, it's not chopped liver at long range.
Point for point 1 battlecannon is very comparable to 2 plasma cannons making a defiler comparable to 2 oblits in a pie throwing contest.

People never seem to complain about oblits going an entire 6 turn game without once using their power fists, so why is anybody complaining about a defiler shooting 6 battlecannon rounds in a battle without engaging in CC?

Thats why i run 3 obliterators

BTW, despite being only AV12, they can actually be used to tar-pit scary units much in the same way as Dreadnoughts.

Last game I played, a pair of Defilers wiped a squad of Death Company (no fists, hammers, or meltabombs in the squad lol) and an Assault Squad, then went on to tie up the Sanguinor and another Assault Squad.

A lot of units put out a ton of medium S Power Weapon attacks.


Any non-MC lacking a Power Fist, Melta Bombs, a Thunder Hammer, or another equivalent can be tar-pitted fairly well by Defilers.



They really are incredibly versatile.

Ghargatuloth you aren't making sense.

i do agree y obliterators are used tha y i have 3 of them and im planing on getting 6 more( its sounds a bit crazy0 but it going 2 screw some of my mates up big time..

schadenfreude wrote:pie throwing contest.

I see what you did there

DarkHound wrote:Ghargatuloth you aren't making sense.[/quot

I was beginning to think it was just me but someone else also doesn't understand his train of thought.

I don't understand why people don't like defilers.How could you not? A walking battlecannon was enough for me to buy one, but WAIT! There's more! You can have a total of 4,you herd that right, FOUR DCCW.

Seriously, be grateful their not crazed. They have crap armour values, but That's their only downside. Well, actually, having 3 WS and BS is pretty bad too, but that's a result of a daemon inside the thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I don't really think obliterators are even near as good as the defiler. The don't have a battlecannon, to start, and they lack speed. The always have to footslog, because people move away from them after they deep strike, which means they never get into assault...Unless you throw them straight into a mosh pit on turn 5 or something.

Even tho obliterators lack in speed the purpose of them in my opnion is to take out any dangerous threats with the variety of heavy and assult weapons they have. And the lascannon and plasma cannon haves so many different uses. Also they come with a 2+ save and 2 wounds.

I think that defilers are a bit better than obliterators. My buddy has one that supports two, two man obliterator squads. The thing is, they are the same type of unit, the defiler also has fleet though, that way he can get in there and really put it to some vehicles if you need him for tank hunting. Personally, my vote would go to a defiler.