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I would go a completely different route with Primarchs.

They have special rules to replace their statlines (except for attacks) They always hit in close combat on a 2+ and can choose to strike anywhere in the initiative order at all times. Shooting always hits on a 2+/4+ and they can allocate the wounds like the Vindicare assassin. They always wound on a 2+ and their attacks ignore armour saves and inflict instant death. They are all psykers who can cast 3 powers per turn. Fearless and so on and so forth. Maybe something really sick like "no retreat" wounds caused by a Primarch ignore all saves.

So in general they are freaking monsters ability-wise. They shoot anything they can see and whatever they assault dies very quickly. They don't have any titan-crushing shooting powers or anything like that. They're just Space Marines with a god-like skill level.

In addition they would all have a chapter tactics ability that functions in addition to whatever chapter tactics or other special rule that the army gets.

And whatever special rule is appropriate to the specific primarch. Wings, etc.

Horus never made it to Daemonhood.

Surprisingly, well, not- uber, is what I say. You kept the rules awesome, but, well, small enough that you'd actually be able to play a game with them, instead of just saying "I have the Emperor, I win"

Something you ought to do is make some rules for Ghazzy, that would more accurately represent him. Actually, Ghazzy, the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon, maybe Tuska da Daemon Killa (after a couple millenia in the Warp, killing daemons every day with all 'iz Boyz an' Nobz, e'z bound to be Bigger and Badder than other Orks). Gork an' Mork wouldn't really work, since they're literally unbeatable according to fluff- and that's not just me being a fanboy, either. Every other unit shown here has, in fluff, a limit. A weakness, a way to kill them. If not explicitly stated, then hinted at through the lack of calling them 'invincible'. Gork and Mork are actually, in the fluff, known to be able to bash the other god's 'eads in without so much as a by-your-leave.

However, Ghazkull Mag Uruk Thrakka's been fighting on Armageddon for decades. He's described in the fluff as being, what was it, 10, 20 metres tall? That's over 30 feet, 2 stories of a building. Monstrous, if not Gargantuan.

What about the Void Dragon, a Norn Queen, or some of the other Eldar gods(besides Kaela Mensha Khaine)?

May I point out for the sake of argument that Angron at least already has rules in 40k (one of the Imperial Armor books, I think) and he is seriously outclassed by a Bloodthirster? I think most of the Primarchs' awesomeness comes from the fact that we only hear about it from Imperial sources that venerate them as gods.

Also, the very concept of putting the Chaos Gods into a fight with anyone on the tabletop scale is just silly. It implies that you can, in fact, harm the manifestations of various emotions.

@TechMarine: Isha's locked up in a cage, Cegorach doesn't come out of the webway, and everyone else in the Eldar pantheon is dead.

I will be doing 2 things for Necrons to compensate for their poor choice in units and I am doing the Hive Mind or Dominatrix.The Norn Quen is space bound as part of hte Hive Ship.I will do both and you can vote for the best.Khaine is the only surving god for eldar other than the father god,IIRC.I am giving the DE their own GoW.

One small point, these are obviously for apoc only, apocalypse doesn't use a force organisation chart. The "no other HQ's, but HQ's count as elites" part is pointless. I also dont think all the primarchs and gods should be worth the same amount of points.

Other than that they seem okay, ridiculous, but okay.

Edit: Typo's

Nicely written rules, but I agree with JustDave on the previous page. These beings are extremely hard, if not impossible, to represent on the table-top. Your rules are nice, but they would fit better if you changed them to something other than the primarchs and chaos gods. Seriously, chaos gods? They virtually cannot be defeated, and neither can most of the beings on the list.

According to fluff either gork or mork wields a hammer that is a size of a planet, now even for gods, that's just too much.

Brian P wrote:I would go a completely different route with Primarchs.

They have special rules to replace their statlines (except for attacks) They always hit in close combat on a 2+ and can choose to strike anywhere in the initiative order at all times. Shooting always hits on a 2+/4+ and they can allocate the wounds like the Vindicare assassin. They always wound on a 2+ and their attacks ignore armour saves and inflict instant death. They are all psykers who can cast 3 powers per turn. Fearless and so on and so forth. Maybe something really sick like "no retreat" wounds caused by a Primarch ignore all saves.

So in general they are freaking monsters ability-wise. They shoot anything they can see and whatever they assault dies very quickly. They don't have any titan-crushing shooting powers or anything like that. They're just Space Marines with a god-like skill level.

In addition they would all have a chapter tactics ability that functions in addition to whatever chapter tactics or other special rule that the army gets.

And whatever special rule is appropriate to the specific primarch. Wings, etc.

There are good but flawed suggestions here.

1st,not all primarch's were psychic,only Magnus and Sanguinius.Lorgar did have power but very little and that's why he get's 1 power a turn.
2nd,No Retreat isn't caused by any particular modal.
3rd,they all have a power weapon of some degree.
3rd,They do all have a chapter Tactics,except for manus,who has no special characters,and Gulliman,whose combat tactics are his chapter tactics.
4th,the allocate wounds is good,but the primarchs need to command the wider battle,so the are too busy to take that careful aim.
5rth,Sanguinius and Corax do have wings,Khan has his ultra fast bike(18" move/assault,30" turbo boost),Manus has his servo kit etc.
6th,they all are excedingly fast,bar Vulkan and Manus,who has a TH that strikes in Int order and a plain TH with conversion beamer.


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Gorechild wrote:One small point, these are obviously for apoc only, apocalypse doesn't use a force organisation chart. The "no other HQ's, but HQ's count as elites" part is pointless. I also dont think all the primarchs and gods should be worth the same amount of points.

Other than that they seem okay, ridiculous, but okay.

Edit: Typo's

The first paragraph says that they can be used in a normasl game.Whikle at first this may seem OP,it isn't.In order to field a primarch,you need a game of 2000pts+,to fit in the primarch and 2 troops,plus a little extra.The gods need at least 5500 to fit them in and 2 troops.


This means that you opponent has 1500pts/5000ptsd to fight your god of war with.Also,if fielding one of the 5K characters,your opponent gets another 1500pts.


I didn't just amke these up a say there you go.I put real thought into balance.



For fluff wise stuff,I want to put these characters in present day 40K.The 41st Millenium is drawing to its close,so I'm here to put something new in.

's just that the threshold between 'normal' and Apoc is about 3000 points, so the ones that cost 5000 or more by themselves? Cannot be used in 'normal' games.

You don't have to play Apoc if it's 3000opts+.It is just the standard gameplay now at that level.

This is not for normal games, most armies would require Titans to deal with these characters.

You have to remember based on fluff even the basic space marine is meant to be THE man, literally so and the basic stat lines have been made to represent that in a relative format. You can see from Angrons DP rules in Apoc that these guys are not meant to be this strong when put into that system. Angron doesn't have T8 or 9 wounds and when elevated to Daemonhood he's meant to be stronger than the run of the mill Primarch. Just because they beef them up during a single titanic duel in fluff doesn't mean much. Emperor and Horus fought on a battle barge.. i'd have a guess that it wouldn't be as resilient as an entire planet and they managed NOT to destroy that during the scrap and that single story/fluff is probably one of the most cemented in all warhammer. You're using different generations of writers, some obviously influenced by the absurd lengths anime goes too, some obviously channeling something a little more restrained such as Star Wars.

Using the Gods is outrageous. They're Gods man. Tzeentch has repeatedly been described as the guy who pulls EVERYONE's strings of fate and Khorne is supposedly stronger than him... the only way they'd ever truly be in a toble top game is...well never... because unless they were fighting one another it'd always be 'Chaos God wins' as the single special rule. Hell they toyed and took out the Eldar Pantheon of Gods like it was a sunday morning, their closest vassals (the Greater Daemons) are quite possibly the strongest group of models in the standard game and Khorne took one of them out like it was nothing... Slan decimated the eldar race like he was rolling around in his sleep and accidentally smacked the galaxy in the face, no matter your logic or rhym.. I hate to be a kill joy but there is no true possible way of putting them in the system without denying them their true nature and you only tarnish the concepts of them by trying in my opinion.

I know... i'm an ass, but meh.

I'd probably have a Primarchs basic stat line in the region of...
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
7 7 6 5 4 6 4 10 2+

As for Empy then pop him on an extra wound and attack and pump his I, WS, BS to 10.

I am not influinced by anything.


As for you stat line,an assassin has WS and BS 8,so your telling me an assassin is better than this.4 wounds?C'mon,a Great Unclean One has 5.You telling me it's ahrder to kill him than Magnus the Red?

As for Angron,his inserttion is simply "read GW website,but add these rules".He is cheaper,but is accompanied by betwwen 2 and 12 bloodthirsters.This more than compansates for his rubbishness.



Just FYI,the closest aids and highest ranking Daemons are the Daemon Lords.Also,The Chaos Gods are no different to any other daemon except that they are extraordinarily powerful and need a big Rift with a capital everything.


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blood reaper wrote:This is not for normal games, most armies would require Titans to deal with these characters.

Most people would not require titans,you have an extra 6500pts to fight gods or another God to fight him with.With Primarch's you get 1500.Primarch's are simply Infantry or MC,depending on which side you're on.Quite easy to fight.

No the Chaos Gods aare while Daemons are created by the gods while others are created by emotion, the Chaos gods are pure emotion while daemons are the creations of the gods or a small cluster off emotions and if created by the gods they are simply part of the Chaos god. The gods of Chaos are bound to the warp, and the primarchs really should be for Apoycalypse games.

So one,insignificent HQ is running around,getting trampled by titans and Squiggoths?No thank you.

There are no force organisation charts in apoycalypse, HQ choices rant as bad as you say if you have units to counter them. These are overpowered and just horrid for normal games, there are plenty space marine HQ choices.

Raythor wrote:

But couldn't any space marine chapter take Gulliman since they all regard him as their spiritual liege?

Where is that said, Imperial Fists couldnt care less about him nor any chapter that actualy took part deffending the Emperor as that took all the credict and he couldnt even be asked to move when needed, almost half opposed him when he wanted to do Chapters not legions(especialy Rogal Dorn) , but then some chapters dont give a toss to the extent of completely ignoring him and what he wanted...( Black Templars - decendent of Imperial Fists)
And if that is something GW shat out then it's just cause they got ultramarines stuck up their rectum

I'd actually suggest using Abaddon's stats as a base for the Primarchs (considering that he is rumored to be Horus's clone son).

so...err...khornes sword kills planets with a single swing.....I dont think you could represent that on a table top not to mention all who see slaanesh instantly give their soul to shim. Sorry man but a big NO to chaos gods on the table

Maybe use them in Battlefleet Gothica instead? You'd have them wandering around, killin' ships and smashin' planets all over the board.

For Gork an' Mork, you could just use little Epic Gargants.

I want to be able to play with my brainchildren.I only do 40K,no clue how BFG works.

TechMarine1 wrote:I'd actually suggest using Abaddon's stats as a base for the Primarchs (considering that he is rumored to be Horus's clone son).

I've never heard of any evidence for this rumour/

RogalDorn69 wrote:

Raythor wrote:

But couldn't any space marine chapter take Gulliman since they all regard him as their spiritual liege?

Where is that said

Mat Ward (writer of the SM Codex) said that in what dwarf.

blood reaper wrote:There are no force organisation charts in apoycalypse, HQ choices rant as bad as you say if you have units to counter them. These are overpowered and just horrid for normal games, there are plenty space marine HQ choices.

The mans got a point; people can struggle to deal with Mephiston at 1500-2000pts, let alone these Primarch stats...



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And Mephiston can't join other units...

The Red Thirst
The Blood Rage
All modals with the Red Thirst(including Sanguinius)succumb to it on a roll of 1-4.All Death Company modals lose the Rage Special rule.If Sanguinius dies,Death Company regain the rule.Also,any none-Death company modals use the rules and profile of a Death Company.Furioso(not Librarian)Dreadnoughts become Death company Dreadnoughts.Captain Tycho IMMEDIATELY becomes Death Company Tycho.The exceptions are Sanguinary Guard,Chaplains,HQ units,Honour Guard and named characters other than Tycho.They instead succumb to the Red Thirst(if they have not already done.so)and gain the Rage special rule.
Exterminatus
In the Shadow of our Lord
Only non-vehicle modals with a jump pack or similar may be included in a force with Sanguinius.Those that have it as an option may take it for free.Unique Characters without a jump device may still be taken.Vehicles have no limitations.



Sorry, but this makes no sense.

First, Blood Angels did not get the Red Thirst or Black Rage until after his death. As others mentioned they were basicly red ultramarines that favored fast attack Assault Marines.

Also, when he did die, the entire army did not fall to the Black Rage. And then lets look at the game mechanics. The Dreads Armor goes from a 13 to a 12 just because someone accross the board died? You really need to rethink his powers and abilities.

Maybe give him a 12" bubble of FNP, FC. Or have all units have FNP and FC while he is alive, but if he dies, then all units must test or gain Rage. Also No DC or DC Dreads allowed.

EDIT:

A few more things I missed. Does not have Eternal Warrior, so the first Force weapon that comes along kills him, also he has 5 Psychic Powers but NO Hood????

You also gave Ultramarines almost every Universal Special Rule in the book, and you did not give The Blood Angels, the one Chapter that use to have FC as a Standard Rule? No offense, but you shouldnot write the rules for chapters Primarchs unless you actually know their fluff and history.

Where in the fluff does it say there were no tact squads or Dev squads until after his death? That is what you rule about only JP Infantry does.

The EW is a typo.He should indeed have it.He should also have Tactical Prescision.

I think a force weapon that can be used to ID 5 guys and a Hood is pushing it



The Furioso Dread will retain his armour values,I will edit this.




The background to these,are bringing these units into modern day 40K.That way characters can fight alongside them.I think Dante,who is a mere 1400 yrs old is not going to be around to see sSanguinius die.


When he died the firast time in HH,he was alone except for Horus and The Emperor,so the asignal was weaker.This time,he is right beside them,so not only would they be emotionally scarred,it would enhance the signal.

This would mess the fluff up bad becauase eventually someone will kill like the emporer and battle and then say hey that wasn't so hard, hwy is he so over powered in the fluff, this is unfornately only wishful thinking

We will agree to disagree. I still feel you don't know enough of the BA fluff to do this justice. Esp compared to other Primarchs that give USR's that don't make any sense what so ever.

To which are you refering?

I think points need to be different for some like gulliman has a 3++ then a 4++ FNP while all dorm has is a 4++ kinda weak sauce either that or give dorn something better, also would love to see stats for a sigisimund, since well he is the equalivent of abaddon just for the IF and he was a CC master as well actually I think he bested abaddon once


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brian P wrote:I would go a completely different route with Primarchs.

They have special rules to replace their statlines (except for attacks) They always hit in close combat on a 2+ and can choose to strike anywhere in the initiative order at all times. Shooting always hits on a 2+/4+ and they can allocate the wounds like the Vindicare assassin. They always wound on a 2+ and their attacks ignore armour saves and inflict instant death. They are all psykers who can cast 3 powers per turn. Fearless and so on and so forth. Maybe something really sick like "no retreat" wounds caused by a Primarch ignore all saves.

So in general they are freaking monsters ability-wise. They shoot anything they can see and whatever they assault dies very quickly. They don't have any titan-crushing shooting powers or anything like that. They're just Space Marines with a god-like skill level.

In addition they would all have a chapter tactics ability that functions in addition to whatever chapter tactics or other special rule that the army gets.

And whatever special rule is appropriate to the specific primarch. Wings, etc.

And I agree as well, they should all be close to equal, just a little better at certain things.