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Lynata wrote:"Especially"? Isn't the Canoness useless enough yet?

(considering she actually used to be T4 in the earliest days ...)

It's funny how - meltas aside - the most useful units in the SoB army are not actually part of the Order but clerics and their retinue, and the Saint of course.

If I didn't know better, I'd say someone actually doesn't like our nuns very much. Though in the early days all Sisters were T 4 even the battle sisters squads.

Lynata wrote:It's funny how - meltas aside - the most useful units in the SoB army are not actually part of the Order but clerics and their retinue, and the Saint of course.

It's about 50/50. Exorcists, Dominions and TL-MM Immolators are all high on the list still and part of the Order, while Celestine (who I argue is part of the order) and the Battle Conclave/Confessor are not.

pretre wrote:Also, if you're going to go Rhinos for your Doms, go full squad size. Otherwise it is generally better to take TL-MM immos.

I'm not fully set on TL-MM Immolators w/ Dominion flamers and combi-melta yet. There's still a high chance the Immolator will get shaken or worst. It's a lot of points and if it can't shoot, the fall back plan is to move the Immolator 12", pivot, disembark, 2" , and fire the Dominion combi-melta. Dominions equipped with flamers riding in vehicle that normally moves combat speed isn't effective. Dominions with 2 Meltaguns in Rhinos is much cheaper and arguably more effective as tank hunters when you consider their scout move. That and the a Rhino moving cruising speed, pivot, disembarking infantry 2", and firing 2 Meltaguns has a longer range than a scoot and shoot TL-MM Immolator. Plus there's also the option of moving combat speed and shooting 2 Meltaguns through Rhino fire points. Immolator has no fire points.

@Inquisitor_Dunn:

Here's a rough draft list I posted in the armylist section using your Double Conclaves idea:

I used pretre's Crusader-DCA ratio, but I'm not sure what's the best Battle Conclave setup for the squad riding with Kyrinov.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/427402.page

edit: ":" + "D" mistaken as Orkmoticons. Changes to Crusader-DCA

I think the dominion thing is a matter of taste, but I'd love to hear how it goes.


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That list looks nasty, btw. I'll post over there.

Ok, since there are already a lot of SoB experts here, I will talk about them from an opponent's perspective.

Basically, my TAC lists, with the exception of my necrons, tend to be shooty lists with counter-assault elements and/or tarpit elements. In the case of my grey knights, my purifiers are also above-average assault units. In the case of my nids, I have my tyrants and/or Swarmlord + genestealers as counter-assault units. And my space wolves uses wolf guards, grey hunters and rune priests for assault and dreads for counter-assault.

The biggest weakness of the SoB's IMO is that I know how they play and can plan my strategy accordingly. With only 3 exorcists (which BTW, I always ignore initially), the rest of the army relies on a rhino rush to get them into mid-field for some mid-range shooting. Then they have to rely on focus-fire or their infamous Uriah-bomb to wipe out units. My armies can and will out-shoot them from range, whether it be psyfleman dreads + purifier psycannons, space wolf missile launchers or hive guard + devourer shooting. I take out their mobility (transports) and now it has all of a sudden become very dangerous and risky for them to advance on foot. I neuter Uriah's ride so that his mini-star now has to weather my shooting on foot, and when they get close enough, I let them play with my dread. In the game against my necrons, basically wraiths are their worst nightmare as they ignore FNP, don't care about power weapons and for the most part attack 1st due to whip coils.

Once I take out his mobility, it then becomes much easier for me to dictate where and when the battles will happen. Now this doesn't necessarily mean that I will always assault, but it usually ends up that way because that is probably the most efficient way to kill them. I try to tarpit the more killy units like the DCA squad so I don't have to risk my troops, but that is not always necessary if I can whittle them down to small units with my shooting. St. Celestine is a little harder to pin down due to her mobility, but I'm not really all that concerned about her assault because I'm willing to sacrifice my units if necessary. My counter-attack is usually enough to deal with her (it has so far in my games against her).

Of course in general, these strategies applies to all my opponents and not just the Sisters of Battle. It's just with the SoB's, I know exactly what to expect and how to deal with it. In a tournament environment against a good general, this is what the new SoB's have to overcome, not just a nasty list, but the cunning of the general behind it.


BTW, here are some of my epic battles against SabrX's SoB's, both old and new (from most recent to oldest):


2K MTO necrons vs New Battle Sisters - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419123.page

2.5K Ard Boyz Practice - Crowe-Purifiers vs New Battle Sisters (it's the 2nd batrep on that page) - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/394774.page

2K Early Grey Knights vs Old Battle Sisters Immo-spam (my very 1st battle with the new grey knights, excuse the proxies) - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/354103.page

2K Shooty Tyranids vs Old Battle Sisters Immo-spam - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/335528.page

jy2 wrote:With only 3 exorcists (which BTW, I always ignore initially), the rest of the army relies on a rhino rush to get them into mid-field for some mid-range shooting. Then they have to rely on focus-fire or their infamous Uriah-bomb to wipe out units.

This is mostly true, but getting scout/outflank for our best anti-tank unit is able to help with the classic Sisters dilemma of getting across the board against a shooty enemy. If you can get first turn and scout with MM Immolators, you can potentially threaten 9 vehicles on the top of turn 1 (3 Exorcists, 3 MM Immos, 3 melta Dominions).

In my experience, the most dangerous armies are the ones that can just sit back and shoot you to pieces. So, being able to threaten/neutralize the enemy's long range fire is probably the biggest advantage the new list has on the old. And once you take out the long-range stuff, you force the enemy to get closer to you. Since Sisters want to be close to the enemy, if you can force them to close the distance themselves, it's almost like they're fighting the battle for you.

I'll admit though, I have no good answer to spammed Wraiths. I think that even if I was able to commit my entire army against them, they'd probably still not all die.

Competent generals normally know how to deploy against scouting units and that is to either use a sacrificial "push-back" unit to absorb the alpha-strike, to try to use cover where possible or to just "take it". If they've build enough redundancy in their list, they should survive. Outflanking is even easier to deal with.

@Amerikon:

BTW, I think I've played against your Sisters (the old codex) before. That time, I used my scary tyranids but I think it came out a draw because they were too slow to make it to your C&C objective (or something like that).

jy2 wrote:@Amerikon:
BTW, I think I've played against your Sisters (the old codex) before. That time, I used my scary tyranids but I think it came out a draw because they were too slow to make it to your C&C objective (or something like that).

It's possible. I don't know who you are in real life, but I've noticed in some of your battle reports that you're playing at Game Kastle which is pretty much the only place I play.

If you did play against my old Sisters, you probably won. I went through a year long phase where I refused to take Heavy Support choices. Needless to say, I didn't win too often.

If you're interested, we could get together at some point and do a battle report. I have yet to play against GK or Necrons with the new Sisters so that would be interesting. I'd also like to do a test of competitive Sisters at 1500 vs 2000 points, since I'm of the opinion that once you get past 1750 the Sisters start to lose their mojo.

Sure, no prob. I won't be there this week but I should be there next Thurs. I'll give you a taste of my 1500 Crowe-Purifiers if you're there (even though I've never really played them at that points level).

BTW, I was at the Storm the Kastle tournament as an observer. Couldn't attend due to work, though I did play 1 game on Day 2 as the ringer - the Draigowing player vs Italiaplaya's Fatecrushers daemons.

Its nice to see the sisters perform. I am one for the true value of the sisters when played well. Its nice to see this thread up and about.

Lynata wrote:"Especially"? Isn't the Canoness useless enough yet?

(considering she actually used to be T4 in the earliest days ...)

It's funny how - meltas aside - the most useful units in the SoB army are not actually part of the Order but clerics and their retinue, and the Saint of course.

Aye, I noticed that too... (pssst Canoness was T5 in 2nd Ed)... sigh....

Sorry folks, I was going to ask something too, but this isn't the place for it - wouldn't fit the tone. Carry on....

tsz52 wrote:Aye, I noticed that too... (pssst Canoness was T5 in 2nd Ed)... sigh....

2nd edition had inflated stats for most heroes. Things were crazy.

pretre wrote:

tsz52 wrote:Aye, I noticed that too... (pssst Canoness was T5 in 2nd Ed)... sigh....

2nd edition had inflated stats for most heroes. Things were crazy.

Aye but it was still only T+1 over the other Sisters, so not too crazy or outlandish in terms of the 40k overall norm (as was, not just in 2nd Ed).

But yeah, it was just an agreement and FYI for Lynata - I'm deliberately avoiding this subject otherwise [I don't want to wee on you fine folks' chips].

pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm really curious about the dual conclaves. Kyrinov in a vehicle leaves a really big bubble of protection.

I was actually planning on taking Kyrinov and a priest for a 9 man DCA (5)/Crusader (4) squad. That way I don't need to sacrifice Kyrinov's utility if I need to use the Battle Conclave.

@SabrX: It is sad because I don't know that I will ever play against the type of list you are talking about or the caliber of player. My family life keeps me from GTs for the most part, so I only do local RTT.

Also, if you're going to go Rhinos for your Doms, go full squad size. Otherwise it is generally better to take TL-MM immos.

If I remember correctly, and this is meant in the best way possible, in the game that was posted against jy2, you made some reaaaally big mistakes that cost you the game. I think that was the deathray game where you lined your vehicles up for him. It also seemed to me like you were trying to play the old codex, which you can't do anymore.

The new book requires new thinking to work. You can't play it like C:WH.

I have been running both Jacobus and Kyrinvo and 2x the conclaves. I like it so much but hate sticking Kyrinov's neck out, that I'm thinking of adding a priest with power weapon or eviserator to run in his place in the conclave. The evisorator is more for dreadnoughts maybe. I'm testing it out soon. List has been 1850 for the Bugeater GT.

You don't have to disembark Kyrinov. You can just leave him in the Rhino and have his 6" fearless aura wrap around the vehicle's hull. He's more of a liability in assault.

SabrX wrote:You don't have to disembark Kyrinov. You can just leave him in the Rhino and have his 6" fearless aura wrap around the vehicle's hull. He's more of a liability in assault.

Exactly this. at 2k/2500, I would think about going to 8 for his conclave and taking a priest just because of that.


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I've also been contemplating running Kyrinov with Rets to make the Rets an unbreakable backfield threat and save on Simulacrum. Have to buy a priest then though.

pretre wrote:

SabrX wrote:You don't have to disembark Kyrinov. You can just leave him in the Rhino and have his 6" fearless aura wrap around the vehicle's hull. He's more of a liability in assault.

Exactly this. at 2k/2500, I would think about going to 8 for his conclave and taking a priest just because of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've also been contemplating running Kyrinov with Rets to make the Rets an unbreakable backfield threat and save on Simulacrum. Have to buy a priest then though.

Didnt you have a priest already what happened to the one you had already . I posted the whole emergency disembark thing in you make the call thread as the unit is never actually pinned just cant do (anything)<< the key word being discussed.

I have plenty of priests, but don't have any in my lists yet. At 2k+ or so, I'm thinking about it.

Also can't hurt to have a priest with the Repentia.

I have to be honest, I never considered a priest at all for a SoB army - I think they are completely non-competitive. Correct me if I am wrong but with an Eviscerator they are a one wound 70 point model with a 4++ save?

I had considered Kyrinov as an anchor for the army as well. For SoB I actually think Fearless is a good thing, not bad at all since it stops you from being swept and taking 3+ saves on those wounds is not necessarily a bad thing.

@ Pretre I am glad I could help, 2 troops is just so dicey overall to run and it is incredibly easy to lose one of them and be in a tough position.

Where play I tend to see a lot of Missiles and not too many Lascannons. With a 5+ to glance AV 13, I would never ever shoot my Exorcist at a Vindicator/Predator in the same way my opponents never shoot my Exorcist. It is too tough unless you have side armor (and with cover) to bother with until someone gets into Melta range.

When I have lost with SoB it is when I have been dismounted early in the game and then I lose the initiative to my opponent who can dictate the terms of the engagement. I also always blew away my opponents Rhinos first with Exorcists, unless there is a low armor high value target like a Typhoon speeder. Once they are on foot you can pick away at them turn by turn and being in a vehicle gets you that extra 2.5" assault move as well from disembarking!

Edit: All this talk has inspired me to bring out the SoB again against my buddys Necrons, we will see what happens.

calypso2ts wrote:I have to be honest, I never considered a priest at all for a SoB army - I think they are completely non-competitive. Correct me if I am wrong but with an Eviscerator they are a one wound 70 point model with a 4++ save?

I had considered Kyrinov as an anchor for the army as well. For SoB I actually think Fearless is a good thing, not bad at all since it stops you from being swept and taking 3+ saves on those wounds is not necessarily a bad thing.

@ Pretre I am glad I could help, 2 troops is just so dicey overall to run and it is incredibly easy to lose one of them and be in a tough position.

Where play I tend to see a lot of Missiles and not too many Lascannons. With a 5+ to glance AV 13, I would never ever shoot my Exorcist at a Vindicator/Predator in the same way my opponents never shoot my Exorcist. It is too tough unless you have side armor (and with cover) to bother with until someone gets into Melta range.

When I have lost with SoB it is when I have been dismounted early in the game and then I lose the initiative to my opponent who can dictate the terms of the engagement. I also always blew away my opponents Rhinos first with Exorcists, unless there is a low armor high value target like a Typhoon speeder. Once they are on foot you can pick away at them turn by turn and being in a vehicle gets you that extra 2.5" assault move as well from disembarking!

Edit: All this talk has inspired me to bring out the SoB again against my buddys Necrons, we will see what happens.

The rise of the sisters. Pretre we might have started a movement. Maybe this is the answer to the grey knights. haha

calypso2ts wrote:I have to be honest, I never considered a priest at all for a SoB army - I think they are completely non-competitive. Correct me if I am wrong but with an Eviscerator they are a one wound 70 point model with a 4++ save?

Correct. You can field them as a straight 45 or 55 with combi-melta though. There's a reason I haven't run them too often.

Where play I tend to see a lot of Missiles and not too many Lascannons. With a 5+ to glance AV 13, I would never ever shoot my Exorcist at a Vindicator/Predator in the same way my opponents never shoot my Exorcist. It is too tough unless you have side armor (and with cover) to bother with until someone gets into Melta range.

Remember that exorcists are very good at getting side shots since they can always move and get full fire.

When I have lost with SoB it is when I have been dismounted early in the game and then I lose the initiative to my opponent who can dictate the terms of the engagement.

He who bails fails. The great thing about my list is that you can use the melta to pop the rhinos and save the exorcists for last.

Edit: All this talk has inspired me to bring out the SoB again against my buddys Necrons, we will see what happens.

Yay! Keep at it. It'll take some work to get used to the new book and the way things work nowadays. Let us know what happens and what you learn from it.

Will do, the game will probably be on Tuesday, he only has about 1k points so far and is new but that evens us up for my lack of experience with the new SoB.

To clarify dismounted, I meant forcibly dismounted by 15 Long Fangs or the equivalent tomfoolery.

@Petre:

I would pass on the priest and just get more battle sisters. While 3 troops isn't bad, I feel that at 2K, you should try to fit in 1 more troop choice if possible. But that's just me.

Adding a priest to the conclave makes it overkill against most units. The trick is, you don't want to wipe them out on your turn just to get shot up on theirs. You want them to survive 1 assault phase so that you can wipe them out on their turn.

And against true deathstars, I'm not sure how much the preferred enemy would help. Maybe a little, but you're still going to get beat most likely.

jy2 wrote:@Petre:

I would pass on the priest and just get more battle sisters. While 3 troops isn't bad, I feel that at 2K, you should try to fit in 1 more troop choice if possible. But that's just me.

Adding a priest to the conclave makes it overkill against most units. The trick is, you don't want to wipe them out on your turn just to get shot up on theirs. You want them to survive 1 assault phase so that you can wipe them out on their turn.

And against true deathstars, I'm not sure how much the preferred enemy would help. Maybe a little, but you're still going to get beat most likely.

They already reroll to hiton the charge with Uriah why would you need the priest? I guess an eviscerator would be nice for dreadnoughts

The priest is usually only good bare on repentia or with an eviscerator on something like celestians.

Tomb King wrote:

jy2 wrote:@Petre:

I would pass on the priest and just get more battle sisters. While 3 troops isn't bad, I feel that at 2K, you should try to fit in 1 more troop choice if possible. But that's just me.

Adding a priest to the conclave makes it overkill against most units. The trick is, you don't want to wipe them out on your turn just to get shot up on theirs. You want them to survive 1 assault phase so that you can wipe them out on their turn.

And against true deathstars, I'm not sure how much the preferred enemy would help. Maybe a little, but you're still going to get beat most likely.

They already reroll to hiton the charge with Uriah why would you need the priest? I guess an eviscerator would be nice for dreadnoughts

There isn't much in a battle conclave that can harm an AV12 walker. There's a good chance the Dreadnought will strike the priest down before the priest can attack.

In any case, it's never a good idea for a Battle Conclave to get stuck in combat against walkers.

SabrX wrote:There isn't much in a battle conclave that can harm an AV12 walker. There's a good chance the Dreadnought will strike the priest down before the priest can attack.

In any case, it's never a good idea for a Battle Conclave to get stuck in combat against walkers.

I'm going to second that. DO NOT GET YOUR CONCLAVE STUCK IN H2H WITH A WALKER. lol

Jacobus has a krak grenade, I guess.

Tomb King wrote:

jy2 wrote:@Petre:

I would pass on the priest and just get more battle sisters. While 3 troops isn't bad, I feel that at 2K, you should try to fit in 1 more troop choice if possible. But that's just me.

Adding a priest to the conclave makes it overkill against most units. The trick is, you don't want to wipe them out on your turn just to get shot up on theirs. You want them to survive 1 assault phase so that you can wipe them out on their turn.

And against true deathstars, I'm not sure how much the preferred enemy would help. Maybe a little, but you're still going to get beat most likely.

They already reroll to hiton the charge with Uriah why would you need the priest? I guess an eviscerator would be nice for dreadnoughts

This was in reference to petre+SabrX's dual-conclave list, one with Jacobus and the other with Kyrinov. Petre was talking about leaving Kyrinov in the rhino and getting a priest for that unit as well.

pretre wrote:

SabrX wrote:There isn't much in a battle conclave that can harm an AV12 walker. There's a good chance the Dreadnought will strike the priest down before the priest can attack.

In any case, it's never a good idea for a Battle Conclave to get stuck in combat against walkers.

I'm going to second that. DO NOT GET YOUR CONCLAVE STUCK IN H2H WITH A WALKER. lol

Jacobus has a krak grenade, I guess.

The problem with that is sometimes, it's hard to avoid, especially if you're playing against kan wall orks, war-walker eldar, Crowe-purifier-psyfleman GK or other MEQ armies using dreads as counter-assault. Those dreads usually have the capability to survive exorcist fire and even close-range meltaguns. In order for the conclave to kill the enemy, they're going to have to get dangerously close to those dreads in many cases.

This is where my 145 point Jump pack Canoness with a 2++, Inferno Pistol, Eviscerator and immune to the first ID used to come in...

at 1850, i've had alot of success with this list:

Uriah +8 DC, +1 Crusader + rhino, EA, dozers
St Celestine

3 battle sister squads with 2 meltas and combi flamer, rhino with dozers,

2 Dominion squads in TL MM immolators (dozers), 2 meltas in the squad and a combi melta

1 Dominion squad of 5 with 2 melta guns (outflank)

3 exorcists

It hasn't lost yet.... 3-0-1

the list suffers in objective missions... 3 troop choices is tough! and KPs isn't easy either... but thats why i like it. Its a challenging codex to play that... if you play well, it will do well. I've found it to be very balanced... while I'd LIKE stubborn again... Its not needed.

The tricks are in how you use the Living St... I've found jumping her around and joining /leaving different units depending on how you want to do dmg to the opponent, she becomes VERY potent.