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DarkHound wrote:
Shas'el, TL-Fusion, Stim, Shield, 98
Ethereal, 50
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
10 Honor Guard, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 145
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 125
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 125
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
8 Pathfinders, 96
Devilfish, DisPod, 2 Seekers, 110
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, Tracker, 155
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, Tracker, 155
1500

That's a good list, but it has some holes.


First the skyrays should be using smart missile systems instead of burst cannons, as they should stay away from the thick of it
The devilfishes don't need targeting arrays, waste of points, put in more fire warriors instead.
The markerlights on the firewarrior teams can't be used on the move, or from inside the devilfishes, which is were they should be. Take that and the target locks off.
Remove the devilfish from one of the fire warriors, and give the pathfinders devilfish to that squad.
Give the HQ suit missile pods that are either twin linked or missiles and the fusion gun. give him marker drones and a target lock.
OR
A better option is to with the points left over take another unit of pathfinders, add some more seeker missiles here and there as well as fire warriors, do the same remove a devilfish from one team and give the pathfinders fish to them.

With those changes, there is a little more that can be done with the HQ suit as needed, but it's a pretty solid list then, only issue is TEQ units.

Ovion wrote:Against Marines you're gaining a succesful wound a turn, against termis you're about the same and against guard you gain 4-6 wounds a turn.

Math FTW.

Proxy that markerlight gunline list and see if you want to invest in all those FW's.
Personally, I run like 11 suits in my Tau force, not including Broadsides.

<---- Loving the random variable mathhammer.....

Random variable?

If you're cutting broadsides vs Railheads, you're just going to end up losing vs mech lists.

DarkHound wrote:Shas'el, TL-Fusion, Stim, Shield, 98
Ethereal, 50
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
10 Honor Guard, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 145
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 125
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 125
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
8 Pathfinders, 96
Devilfish, DisPod, 2 Seekers, 110
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, Tracker, 155
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, Tracker, 155
1500

Wait. Pardon me for being ignorant, maybe. But this list sucks. Why is it good - Anyone care to enlighten me?

I thought the OP wanted "viable list" ? This list aren't even semi-competitive i would say...


To the OP: No, Tau can't even be semi -competitive without suits. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to patronize you. But if you just want a fun game, by all means go for it.

The list hard-counters transport spam by actually deploying and using Firewarriors. With Markerlights, they'll glance AV11 into ruin, and the Seeker Missiles will deal with harder targets. It will have a hard time against Deathwing and some of the faster melee armies though.

DarkHound wrote:The list hard-counters transport spam by actually deploying and using Firewarriors. With Markerlights, they'll glance AV11 into ruin, and the Seeker Missiles will deal with harder targets. It will have a hard time against Deathwing and some of the faster melee armies though.

30 FWs, 30 S5 shots, 15 hits, 2.5 glance a turn. --- You expecting that to do ANYTHING?

You have a total of 12 marker lights a turn (some bs4), average of about 7 hits a turn, about 6 missiles go off.

How is all this better than a couple of s10 ap1 shots, and s7 missiles?

And how is this going to deal with nob bikers, DOA, or even BW spam???

Is there anything special with your deployment tactics that i am missing???

Using the Skyrays to light targets for the Warriors, the Warriors to light targets for the missiles and the Pathfinders to fill gaps, you can pick up 4 glances from the FWs. The Devilfish can score another glance and a half. Larger targets are easily killed by the Monats, though your tactics can be altered.

DOA will either be vaporized at close ranges or pinned at long ranges, using the Markerlights to drop their LD for the Devilfish.

Nob Bikers are easily enough pinned. They're either in Rapid Fire range and about to charge, or unable to charge. The FWs can strip them of Fearless, then they can be pinned and pulverized.

The point is not to be better. The point is to be functional.

DarkHound wrote:Using the Skyrays to light targets for the Warriors, the Warriors to light targets for the missiles and the Pathfinders to fill gaps, you can pick up 4 glances from the FWs. The Devilfish can score another glance and a half. Larger targets are easily killed by the Monats, though your tactics can be altered.

If you are using your Skyrays to light things up for the FWs, then less S8 missiles are firing. I m not sure that's a good deal. 4 glance a turn is hardly functional - i havent even address the issue of your 30" range.

DarkHound wrote:DOA will either be vaporized at close ranges

Not sure if you ve done your math.

Assuming you expend all your markerlights for your firewarriors, that's about 7 marker light hits a turn.
You expend 2 counters for each squad of FWs. All of them are now BS5.
30 FWs, 60 rapid shots, 50 hits, 33.333 wounds, 5.555 dead after FNP and 3+ armor.

Add in those few extra shots from the fusions, and maybe 1 or 2 seeker missiles, maybe another 2 more dead after cover of course.

7.5 dead marines a turn, that's hardly vaporized.

DarkHound wrote:or pinned at long ranges, using the Markerlights to drop their LD for the Devilfish.

I m not sure i am hearing you properly. Are you sure you are going to waste expending 4 markerlight counters (8 pathfinders) to modify the Ld of a SINGLE squad of BA unit just to reduce their Ld from 8/9 to 4/5??? And in order for that to succeed, you still need the devilfish shots to hit, wounds, and then go through the 3+ & FNP... ...

DarkHound wrote:Nob Bikers are easily enough pinned. They're either in Rapid Fire range and about to charge, or unable to charge. The FWs can strip them of Fearless, then they can be pinned and pulverized.

How do FWs strip them of fearless? You mean reduce them to below 11? Care to elaborate?

DarkHound wrote:The point is not to be better. The point is to be functional.

I hope so. But it's not even functional.



Oh ya, and if you face an IG list with chimeras, manticores, and vendatta (all av12 front), are your firewarriors going to be sitting ducks every turn? Either that or they hide in their devilfish all day long while your seekers desperately tries to break the AV12 hulls?

30" range isn't a problem when your targets are moving towards you. Using the Skyrays for your Warriors is dependent on scenario. For instance, GK Razorbacks would require S8 due to Fortune. However, BA Razorbacks are reliably neutralized, so the missiles can be saved for harder targets. What I'm illustrating is that the army has options.

You're looking at the list in a vacuum. You reach the number 7.5 Marines but you don't follow through with what that'd look like on the board. A Deepstriking DoA at 1500 points will deploy about 30 Marines on turn 2. Using the Battlesuits, you can reach a number closer to 11. That'll force every element to take a morale and/or a pinning test, which, at Ld9, 2 will fail. It's an uphill battle, but you can weather the storm with proper castling.

Remember how I said fast assault armies would put the hurt on this list? Nob Bikers are probably the greatest example of this. You can reduce their cover and inflict a morale check and pinning check on them in a single turn. At Ld10, they should statistically fail one or the other by the second turn. If not, you're screwed. However, even standard Tau lists have little answer for Nob Bikers; Broadsides don't achieve a significantly higher kill-rate.

All this mathhammer stuff is really interesting and all but all those who play tau can safetly say that the idea of having no suits is just stupid. No Tau player in their right mind would do that. If you want a laugh then go for it but I can almost 100% you will die everytime, which is cool but im not a massive fan of losing every game. Suits are Tau's core strength so yes you can make a list with no suits and yes it might tae down some targets with AV12 but most people dont just run horde armies straight at your gunline, they use cover and some people actually use tactics. Suits for the Win (sometimes) no suits for the Lose (99% of the time).

ATO

Tau really aren't possible WITH suits

Alltheones wrote:All this mathhammer stuff is really interesting and all but all those who play tau can safetly say that the idea of having no suits is just stupid. No Tau player in their right mind would do that. If you want a laugh then go for it but I can almost 100% you will die everytime, which is cool but im not a massive fan of losing every game. Suits are Tau's core strength so yes you can make a list with no suits and yes it might tae down some targets with AV12 but most people dont just run horde armies straight at your gunline, they use cover and some people actually use tactics. Suits for the Win (sometimes) no suits for the Lose (99% of the time).

ATO

Orks without Battlewagons are impossible. All this proof otherwise is really interesting, but as an ork player I can safely say it can't be done. Because I play orks. You'd lose every single game if you didn't take Battlewagons. Players would use tactics against your orks and you'd lose. After all, Battlewagons negate tactics.

You're right, this is much easier than forming an argument.

DarkHound wrote:30" range isn't a problem when your targets are moving towards you. Using the Skyrays for your Warriors is dependent on scenario. For instance, GK Razorbacks would require S8 due to Fortune. However, BA Razorbacks are reliably neutralized, so the missiles can be saved for harder targets. What I'm illustrating is that the army has options.

What options are you talking about? BEtween 2.5 glances + firing a few seekers v.s. 4 glances + 1 or 2 seekers? That's analogous to choosing between a rotten apple or a rotten orange. When all your options are bad, it doesn't matter that you have 100 options...

DarkHound wrote:You're looking at the list in a vacuum. You reach the number 7.5 Marines but you don't follow through with what that'd look like on the board. A Deepstriking DoA at 1500 points will deploy about 30 Marines on turn 2. Using the Battlesuits, you can reach a number closer to 11.

My math tells me it's closer to like 8.

DarkHound wrote:That'll force every element to take a morale and/or a pinning test, which, at Ld9, 2 will fail. It's an uphill battle, but you can weather the storm with proper castling.

2 will fail, 4 will not - because i m assuming you are talking about 6 in total (6*5 = 30). Then what? The other 4 squads still assault into the first layer of your bubble wrap - FWs. Actually, it doesn't even matter how many is pinned, because even a squad of 5 or 2 squads of 5 can wipe/sweep a squad of FWs.

You say I look at the list in a vacuum, but it appears that my explanations are more elaborate than yours.

DarkHound wrote:Remember how I said fast assault armies would put the hurt on this list? Nob Bikers are probably the greatest example of this. You can reduce their cover and inflict a morale check and pinning check on them in a single turn. At Ld10, they should statistically fail one or the other by the second turn. If not, you're screwed. However, even standard Tau lists have little answer for Nob Bikers; Broadsides don't achieve a significantly higher kill-rate.

Erm, not really. You forgot about bosspoles . And unless they fall under 11, they are NOT going to take a test :-). And your list just don't have the fire power to do so.


Not only fast assault armies, your list can't handle almost anything :-

It can't do anything to AV14 BW spam.
It can't do anything to IG AV12 spam.
It can't do much to SW Razor + LF spam (4 glances + a few seekers a turn don't scare 18 LFs and 4-8 razorbacks). And your FWs don't even have range to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Celtic Strike wrote:Tau really aren't possible WITHOUT suits

TYPO.

Because the 4 suits won't do anything to Battlewagon spam? No, they'll pretty reliably kill them. Let alone the fact that the Seeker Missiles will get side armor through the KFF.

The same is true of IG AV12 spam where the Seekers are effectively working against AV10. If the list fields Hydras, you spend all your missiles mopping up the midfield. Dropping the Warriors off to get side-armor on the Chimeras is hilarious. The Monats can clean-up the Hydras. If he's got artillery, you spend just enough missiles shake them and use the Monats on the midfield to make up for it. AV12 Spam has trouble laying down fire as it advances.

SW Razorbacks have Assault Cannons, which have only a 24" range. The Long Fangs do outrange the Firewarriors, but they also only kill a Devilfish every other turn. SW Razorback Spam will sit at around 6 Razors, none of which will be able to shoot. You can suppress his army far more easily than he can suppress yours. Then you wait for the Monats to land the killing blow, opening the transports for your Firewarriors to finish off.

The fact that I can even formulate a plan proves my point: the list has the tools to address a variety of scenarios. Its weaknesses are not a problem that adding suits can fix.

How does this fair against even fairly fluffy Grey Knights who will laugh at 4 glances per turn and then possibly shunt a DK into your midst? What about something like a green tide which can really only be played as a fun list simply due to how much time it takes to move? Or even just guard with HF Chimeras?

A foot Tau list pretty much dies to lists that even the fluffiest of fluff bunnies will field. Let alone somebody with even a half decent semi-competitive list. Plus, the suits are pretty much the sole reason to play Tau.

DarkHound wrote:Its weaknesses are not a problem that adding suits can fix.

Ok based on this, :-

DarkHound wrote:Because the 4 suits won't do anything to Battlewagon spam? No, they'll pretty reliably kill them. Let alone the fact that the Seeker Missiles will get side armor through the KFF.

Tell us how you are going to get in range, and then I ll continue my argument.

DarkHound wrote:The same is true of IG AV12 spam where the Seekers are effectively working against AV10. If the list fields Hydras, you spend all your missiles mopping up the midfield.

I didnt discount the seekers. Even without side armor, s8 still can hurt av12.

DarkHound wrote:Dropping the Warriors off to get side-armor on the Chimeras is hilarious.

How do you do that? By moving the FWs 12" in the devilfish, you can get side armor from a distance??? Not to mention they only have 12" range that turn...

DarkHound wrote:The Monats can clean-up the Hydras. If he's got artillery, you spend just enough missiles shake them and use the Monats on the midfield to make up for it. AV12 Spam has trouble laying down fire as it advances.

I m not catching what you are saying here. You place your Fusion Suits out in the midfield to be shot at? I don't understand what you mean by "make up for it". Maybe I m abit slow... You definitely need to elaborate this point.

DarkHound wrote:SW Razorbacks have Assault Cannons, which have only a 24" range. The Long Fangs do outrange the Firewarriors, but they also only kill a Devilfish every other turn. SW Razorback Spam will sit at around 6 Razors, none of which will be able to shoot. You can suppress his army far more easily than he can suppress yours.

WAIT WAIT. Don't assume first. Razorspam are mostly Las/Plas. So that's 4-6 Lasc, 15 Missiles into your face at 48", in exchange for your 6-7 seekers everyturn - And that's assuming your 36" pathfinders have range to any target. Otherwise, it's just 3 missiles a turn.

DarkHound wrote:Then you wait for the Monats to land the killing blow, opening the transports for your Firewarriors to finish off.

You mention your Monats alot of times. I am REALLY curious how you intend to use /deploy them (Just to make sure we are on the same frequency, fusions only have 12" range). Care to enlighten us?



So now onto telling you what my 1500 list can do that your list cannot.

1) s7 Missiles with a threat range of 36+6 inches to glance or pen light transports.
2) s6 Plasma AP2 to threaten things like DOAs. Assuming I swap your firewarriors for them, everything else constant, I have 6+1 (Shas El) plasma rifles, 14 plasma shots, 11.6 plasma hits (markerlight), 9.722 wounds, 6.5 dead - EXCLUDING the missile pods from the same suits, Railguns, kroots' rapid firing, etc.
3) S10 AP1 Railguns to take on heavy vehs from a distance.
4) Pirahnas to movement block wagons.

I gave up on this thread ages ago....

Random variable mathahmmer = Cant win any arguments with crazy people....

Dont bother just let them run around glancing tanks and getting the Uber Killy Skyray to rack up the KP's =]

Alltheones wrote:All this mathhammer stuff is really interesting and all but all those who play tau can safetly say that the idea of having no suits is just stupid. No Tau player in their right mind would do that. If you want a laugh then go for it but I can almost 100% you will die everytime, which is cool but im not a massive fan of losing every game. Suits are Tau's core strength so yes you can make a list with no suits and yes it might tae down some targets with AV12 but most people dont just run horde armies straight at your gunline, they use cover and some people actually use tactics. Suits for the Win (sometimes) no suits for the Lose (99% of the time).

ATO

I intend to run a list of an ethereal, 84 fire warriors, 2 hammerheads and probably 2-3 broadsides, with 1-2 deathrains for my HQ. If not Broadsides a Skyray or maybe 2-3 sniper drone teams.

Will I get my ass ahnded to me? maybe.
Will I have fun with my slowed number of firewarriors / shots? Hell yes.

Milisim wrote:I gave up on this thread ages ago....

Random variable mathahmmer = Cant win any arguments with crazy people....

Dont bother just let them run around glancing tanks and getting the Uber Killy Skyray to rack up the KP's =]

I still don't get what you mean by 'random variable mathammer'
I went on standard units (guard / marines / termis) did them with cover and without, and used the average amount of models I tend to hit under a large blast (which is 6) in a program that's sole purpose is to give you the [i]average[i] result of those dice.

Sure it can do better, it can also do worse - but those are the expected averages.

Ovion wrote:

Alltheones wrote:All this mathhammer stuff is really interesting and all but all those who play tau can safetly say that the idea of having no suits is just stupid. No Tau player in their right mind would do that. If you want a laugh then go for it but I can almost 100% you will die everytime, which is cool but im not a massive fan of losing every game. Suits are Tau's core strength so yes you can make a list with no suits and yes it might tae down some targets with AV12 but most people dont just run horde armies straight at your gunline, they use cover and some people actually use tactics. Suits for the Win (sometimes) no suits for the Lose (99% of the time).

ATO

I intend to run a list of an ethereal, 84 fire warriors, 2 hammerheads and probably 2-3 broadsides, with 1-2 deathrains for my HQ. If not Broadsides a Skyray or maybe 2-3 sniper drone teams.

Will I get my ass ahnded to me? maybe.
Will I have fun with my slowed number of firewarriors / shots? Hell yes.

You'll have fun losing most games because you don't want to play the army in a competitive way?

Tell me how you'll deal with something like a green tide list which might also get played against you for fun? What about somebody playing semi-competitive mech IG? Or bare bones grey knights? Your list has very few answers to some rather important question.

Well, then I would likely get rolled :p

I already have a 'functional' tau list that has being doing reasonably well.

But the base goal has always been that 84 fw list. Though I'm in no hurry, buying the extra warrior squads piecemeal off ebay at as low a budget as I can.

I don't mind losing, it's a game, people take it too seriously.

Ovion wrote:Well, then I would likely get rolled :p

I already have a 'functional' tau list that has being doing reasonably well.

But the base goal has always been that 84 fw list. Though I'm in no hurry, buying the extra warrior squads piecemeal off ebay at as low a budget as I can.

I don't mind losing, it's a game, people take it too seriously.

But but...if I don't bring a netlist people are gonna thinking I'm a newb and it's gonna make me cry on the insides....

I've been running the following list with great effect, as a no crisis suit tau list:

Shadowsun

12 Fire warriors with 'ui and bonding

20 Kroot + shaper and 4 hounds

20 Kroot + shaper and 4 hounds

8 Pathfinders and devilfish with pods

3 Broadsides with ASS, team lead, bonding, 2 shield drones, HWbsf and target lock,

Hammerhead with railgun, burst cannons, pods, multi-tracker, target lock, bsf

Hammerhead with railgun, burst cannons, pods, multi-tracker, target lock, bsf

1499 points

It's worked very well, against everything from hordes to full mech.

If we wanted aboslutely no battlesuits (the broadsides too) then remove the broadsides, add another hammerhead like the rest, and add

Piranha with fusion, pods, flechettes, targetting array, decoy launcher 2 seeker missiles

This leaves you 3 points under a 1500 list.

I am pleased for all those who have made a competitive list with no suits at all, I just don't see the point in making an army that struggles sometimes potentially even more by taking out one of their best units. Congrats on all those who have won without them, to me just seems a bit dumb, one of Tau's best units and to ignore them makes no sense to me but you are right it is just a game and im sure you will have fun with your 84 FW's definately a kick ass sight. Id rather have my 9 crisis suits but just personal preference. Either way good look and have fun to all fellow Tau players! which ever path you choose suits or no suits just kick some ass, especially those armies that are way OP lol!

ATO

P.s can some of you guys check out my gallery and let me know what you think of the scheme! lol Cheers!

Isseyfaran wrote:Tell us how you are going to get in range, and then I ll continue my argument.
...
How do you do that? By moving the FWs 12" in the devilfish, you can get side armor from a distance??? Not to mention they only have 12" range that turn...

Battlewagons need to move towards you. Chimeras and Devildogs need to move towards you. Razorbacks need to move towards you. Specifically regarding the IG, Chimeras have a very limited range. Your Fish's cargo has an effective range of 24", while his has a range of 18" (6" movement, 12" Meltas). If you threaten it from multiple angles, he won't be able to cover all sides of any one Chimera and deploy the Meltaguns. You wait until he is in 24", drive at an angle, deploy and fire into his flank.

I m not catching what you are saying here. You place your Fusion Suits out in the midfield to be shot at? I don't understand what you mean by "make up for it". Maybe I m abit slow... You definitely need to elaborate this point.

Pathfinder Devilfish let Deepstriking units roll 1D6 for scatter, so the plan is to Deepstrike them. They'll make up for the missiles you spend on shaking the artillery by killing a couple harder tanks.

DarkHound wrote:SW Razorbacks have Assault Cannons, which have only a 24" range. The Long Fangs do outrange the Firewarriors, but they also only kill a Devilfish every other turn. SW Razorback Spam will sit at around 6 Razors, none of which will be able to shoot. You can suppress his army far more easily than he can suppress yours.

WAIT WAIT. Don't assume first. Razorspam are mostly Las/Plas. So that's 4-6 Lasc, 15 Missiles into your face at 48", in exchange for your 6-7 seekers everyturn - And that's assuming your 36" pathfinders have range to any target. Otherwise, it's just 3 missiles a turn.

That's actually not such a problem. That is a total of 1 dead fish per turn, and they give me free reign of the map. Given that most scenarios are objective games, I deploy as normal, but if I see intends to outrange me, I can pack everything up and take the center. If at any point he switches strategies, I disembark and proceed to shoot his pants off.

So now onto telling you what my 1500 list can do that your list cannot.

1) s7 Missiles with a threat range of 36+6 inches to glance or pen light transports.
2) s6 Plasma AP2 to threaten things like DOAs. Assuming I swap your firewarriors for them, everything else constant, I have 6+1 (Shas El) plasma rifles, 14 plasma shots, 11.6 plasma hits (markerlight), 9.722 wounds, 6.5 dead - EXCLUDING the missile pods from the same suits, Railguns, kroots' rapid firing, etc.
3) S10 AP1 Railguns to take on heavy vehs from a distance.
4) Pirahnas to movement block wagons.

What you're saying is actually irrelevant, but I'll humor you anyway. You see, you're listing what weapons you bring not comparatively how effective they are (except in the case of the DoA, but you're being misleading there.)

Firewarriors without Markerlights deal damage to AV11 at the same rate as 4 Missile Pods, and moving into 24" for the Plasmaguns range doesn't change much. The Suits are more mobile, but less durable, and far more expensive. The Railguns aren't more effective than Deepstriking Monats at killing hard armor, especially for price efficiency. Any skimmer can block Battlewagon movement.

About the DoA, the 7 Missile Pods count for an additional 1.6 kills at BS5, but that's that's irrelevant since you have to focus fire because your Markerlights can only target 1 squad at a time. Then the Kroot Rapidfire inflicts 1.7 kills per 20 Kroot. Railguns/Pirhana Meltaguns inflict about a third of a kill per shot. You stopped listing your damage output because it seriously dwindles after the Plasma, but you wanted to imply it was strong. So we can say you kill about 13 Marines. You are actually in the same boat as my list at that point. The first wave will strip your castle, and his reinforcements will weather your diminished shooting.

I'll concede that a standard list is better against AV12 and DoA, but the list you're describing would get rolled by a horde. Even if your Railguns came from Hammerheads, a large blast template only hits 3 models if he spaces them even remotely properly.

DarkHound wrote:Battlewagons need to move towards you.

Gd. You finally said what I wanted you to say. If you allow the wagons to move to within 6-12" of you and then start threatening them with your melta, you ve already lost the game. What's the point of destroying a transport that has already delivered its load? You have basically achieved nothing.

DarkHound wrote:Chimeras and Devildogs need to move towards you. Razorbacks need to move towards you. Specifically regarding the IG, Chimeras have a very limited range.

Not when I outrange you, and am firing tons of missiles and manticore rocket barrage into your army from a distance, while only eating 3 S8 seekers in return per turn. So yeah, I don't need to advance towards you, and you still eat my bullets. And EVEN if I am, it is only 4 laughable glance +1seeker a turn. Please convince me how you win such a game, because I find it hard to convince myself :-).

DarkHound wrote:Your Fish's cargo has an effective range of 24", while his has a range of 18" (6" movement, 12" Meltas). If you threaten it from multiple angles, he won't be able to cover all sides of any one Chimera and deploy the Meltaguns.You wait until he is in 24", drive at an angle, deploy and fire into his flank.

This is already covered. You have poor range, and I don't have to go to you if I choose not to. Oh YAH, you forgot to mention 9 TL Lascs from my 3 vendettas :-).

DarkHound wrote:Pathfinder Devilfish let Deepstriking units roll 1D6 for scatter, so the plan is to Deepstrike them. They'll make up for the missiles you spend on shaking the artillery by killing a couple harder tanks.

Ok so - you deepstrike your suits. Also, let's assume melta range or NOT, your S8 AP1 hits and pens 3 razorbacks. Let's say you get lucky, shakes one, and wrecks 2. So 3 suits in exchange for 2 razorbacks, and then what? My 15 missiles and 2-4 -other razorbacks are still firing. By 1 fish a turn, i presume you mean 1 dead a turn. 15 missiles, 10hits, that's already 3.333 pens, 1.111 glances a turn. Your math is seriously misleading. the rest of the 4-6 las is dealing another 1-2 pens. Taking into account pods, it's still about 2-2.5 pens, which mybe wrecks one, and does something on the other. And you know what, maybe I don't even have to shoot your devilfish becuase they cant do anything to me. I can always drop 15 frags into your FWs if I wish to - but of course, I assume you will be putting them in devilfish fish since they will be doing nothing anyway

DarkHound wrote:That's actually not such a problem. That is a total of 1 dead fish per turn, and they give me free reign of the map. Given that most scenarios are objective games, I deploy as normal, but if I see intends to outrange me, I can pack everything up and take the center. If at any point he switches strategies, I disembark and proceed to shoot his pants off.

Pack what? Your fws? Shoot my pants off with 4 glances a turn? Seriously? Is that a figure of speech?

DarkHound wrote:Firewarriors without Markerlights deal damage to AV11 at the same rate as 4 Missile Pods, and moving into 24" for the Plasmaguns range doesn't change much.

2 squads of 3 each, that's 6 missiles pods.
30 FWs, 15 hits , 2.5 glance
6 Missile Pods, 12 shots, 6 hits, 2 pens, 1 glance. 6 plasma, 3 hits, 0.5 glance, 0.5 pens.

I am not sure how 2.5 pens and 1.5 glance is the SAME RATE as 2.5 glance

DarkHound wrote:The Suits are more mobile, but less durable, and far more expensive.

30 fws each with leader cost 390 pts. 6 fireknife suits cost 372. Even without your leader upgrade (Ld 7 then), you come up to 360. Another misleading statement by you without doing the math.

DarkHound wrote:The Railguns aren't more effective than Deepstriking Monats at killing hard armor,

Without sacrificing themself the next turn :-). I want a gun that shoots for 3-5 turns, insteand of for only 1 turn :-)

DarkHound wrote:Any skimmer can block Battlewagon movement.

So you use your devilfish to block wagons? Yes OR no? Otherwise, your point is a moot one.

DarkHound wrote:About the DoA, the 7 Missile Pods count for an additional 1.6 kills at BS5,

Depending on if the squad is 5 or 10 strong.

DarkHound wrote:Then the Kroot Rapidfire inflicts 1.7 kills per 20 Kroot. Railguns/Pirhana Meltaguns inflict about a third of a kill per shot. You stopped listing your damage output because it seriously dwindles after the Plasma, but you wanted to imply it was strong.

You can stop assuming how I think, unless you can read my mind. I didn't state because I ve already put in much more effort than you, coming up with the detailed math. All you ve done in your previous post was give generic sweeping statements, and your math arent even correct.

2 piranhas, 1,33 hits, 1.11 wounds, 0.74 dead after shield
6 TL Railguns (i use 3 squads of 2 each, with TAs), 5.33 hits, 4.444 wounds, 2.22 dead after 4+ intervening cover.
Then the kroots - 1.7.
For a total of 4.666.

Dwindles? Don't try to read my mind :-)

DarkHound wrote:So we can say you kill about 13 Marines. You are actually in the same boat as my list at that point. The first wave will strip your castle, and his reinforcements will weather your diminished shooting.

8 is hardly in the SAME BOAT as 13 (if we include the kills from the missile pod shots).... The first wave will strip the FIRST LAYER of my castle - Corrected that for you :-).

DarkHound wrote:I'll concede that a standard list is better against AV12 and DoA, but the list you're describing would get rolled by a horde.

I don't see how 20 kroots, 24 SMS shots, 12 missiles, 12 plasma (rapid assuming), is any worse than your 30 FWs, seekers, and monats in dealing with horde. Even if you are MARGINALLY better than me in handling extreme horde list, your list sucks against anything else, for reasons given above.

DarkHound wrote:Even if your Railguns came from Hammerheads, a large blast template only hits 3 models if he spaces them even remotely properly.

Although this has no baring on my arguments above, but I still hope you stop misleading the newbies with your sloppy statements. Please take a picture and show us how a LARGE blast hits only 3 models even if the opponent spreads 2 inches apart (please don't suggest extreme cases like the blast hits the edge of the unit, or the player conga lines, because you may as well then say the template scatter off totally :-). )


So all in all, you wanted to say although your list may not be better than a conventional tau list, but it has functionality. But I m telling you, it does not. Tau needs to shoot armies from a distance. It simply cannot play midfield games (because it doesnt have counter assault units), and simply cannot afford to trade kills. Your list has neither range nor efficiency to play to the strengths of Tau, and therefore has no way to win most conventional list out there.

I try to be brief because I find answering every sentence tedious.

Off the bat, Firewarriors are 10 points a model, not 12. Yes, 2 pens and a glance is damage at the same rate as 2.5 glances against AV11 transports. Inflicting a glance against a Razorback shuts down ~150 points. I won't argue that alone is better, but it certainly shouldn't be discounted.

I'm curious how you would handle it so much better. Broadsides are much more effective against AV11, they're also desperately vulnerable to Long Fangs. He's got the capacity to kill 4 per turn.

For the DoA, your grand total is 13. My Warriors will score 5.5 kills (spending 5 of my 7 Markers), the Fish an additional 2.1 (don't forget the Pathfinder's has 1 Burstcannon), the Monats another 1.6, the Skyrays another .5, and another kill from the missiles. That totals 10.7. An additional 2 Marines is not much of a lead.

A large blast template is 5" across. A model's base is 1" and can be spaced a further 2". Assuming the center of the template is on the very edge of model, it will have extend 3" from him. That will cover the 2" separation, then the length of the next base but no further.

DarkHound wrote:Off the bat, Firewarriors are 10 points a model, not 12. Yes, 2 pens and a glance is damage at the same rate as 2.5 glances against AV11 transports. Inflicting a glance against a Razorback shuts down ~150 points. I won't argue that alone is better, but it certainly shouldn't be discounted.

Your list has target lock, markerlights, so i m pretty sure my total is correct.

If i can inflict 2.5 pen and 1.5 glance, why should i choose to have 2.5 glance ONLY? So if you can shut down 2.5, i can shut down 4, or even some of them PERMANENTLY - if my pens wreck any. You mean you prefer $50 than $70?
Point is there is almost NOTHING that the fws does better than the suits in all occassions.

DarkHound wrote:I'm curious how you would handle it so much better. Broadsides are much more effective against AV11, they're also desperately vulnerable to Long Fangs. He's got the capacity to kill 4 per turn.

I m not sure you know what you are talking about. 15 missiles, 10 hits, 8.333 wounds, 1.388 dead.

I see, you thought broadsides are 3+ armor save?

DarkHound wrote:For the DoA, your grand total is 13. The Warriors will score 5.5 kills (spending 5 of my 7 Markers), the Fish an additional 2.1 (don't forget the Pathfinder's has 1 Burstcannon), the Monats another 1.6, the Skyrays another .5, and another kill from the missiles. That totals 10.7. An additional 2 Marines is not much of a lead.

Wait. Do your math PROPERLY. 5.5 kills from the FWs was assuming 6 out of 7 marker counters are expended for them. so you have only 1 or 0 seekers left.

If you want to quote numbers like 5.5, 2.1, 1.6, make sure either (1) your math is correct, or (2) you do it properly with breakdown like mine. Don't mislead the newbies by throwing random numbers.

DarkHound wrote:A large blast template is 5" across. A model's base is 1" and can be spaced a further 2". Assuming the center of the template is on the very edge of model, it will have extend 3" from him. That will cover the 2" separation, then the length of the next base but no further.

Except you forgot the blast template is round not a thin rectangle, which is why i mention no conga lines. I think you are smart enough to know what i mean.

You didnt bring up the rest of what i have said, so i m presuming you agree with them.