Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have being told by numerous Tau players that without using any suit and their variants, i shouldn't bother with Tau

Can anyone help me with a viable list and its tactics? Commander in crisis suit is an exception Im willing to make for HQ.

My question would be if everyone tells you suits are needed why do you feel the need to not field suits?

Its like me choosing a Vulkan Hestan list and not using Flamers or Melta guns.....???

Can it be done of course you can field whatever you like using the codex.... will it be competitive? Most likely not.....

You could field 84 Fire Warriors with gun drones.... Take an Ethereal with Bodyguard and some IonHeads just to be 100% Opposite every Tau player..... Fun? Yes..... Win = Doubt it

Milisim wrote:My question would be if everyone tells you suits are needed why do you feel the need to not field suits?

Its like me choosing a Vulkan Hestan list and not using Flamers or Melta guns.....???

Can it be done of course you can field whatever you like using the codex.... will it be competitive? Most likely not.....

You could field 84 Fire Warriors with gun drones.... Take an Ethereal with Bodyguard and some IonHeads just to be 100% Opposite every Tau player..... Fun? Yes..... Win = Doubt it

Actually, 84 fire warriors with gundrones would be scary, hording with Str5 Range 30" weaponry. Key point: 84 of those shots! That is an entire army several times over in one shooting phase!

The problem with a no suit list is that the tau are build around them on a design level. They are the natural progression for fire warriors that become veterans, they get suits. On a tactical standpoint you have very little variety in the weapons that you can bring, basic teams cant get special or heavy weapons, they get a markerlight to make someone else better at shooting the target. Pretty much all weapons intended to kill meq/teq targets, as well as light vehicles, are on suits. Plasma is only one crisis and broadsides, missile pods are only on crisis, the only other spot for melta you have is on piranhas. With no suits you limit you self to 5/5 weapons, kroot rifles and guns, railgun/ion on hammer heads, seeker missiles, and rail rifles. You can cover each of you target bases with those options but not in the numbers needed, except for the 5/5 every damn unit has, and most compeat for the heavy spot.
So its doable, but its like rubbing your belly and patting your head, while doing a back flip though a hoop.

Well if you are willing to give your HQ a body guard of battle suits you might have a better time of it. But yes, you need more powerful weapons which is where suits come in. On the other hand you could spam Piranhas with fusion blasters, but the problem there is the 12in range. They really need to give tau something akin to a multi-melta for those things...

While it can be done(Anything can be done in this game) it is not likely you will survive. Without suits Tau will lose a lot of mobility, what with jsj and all. Then, what HQ would you have. An ethereal, no. So suits are basically needed somehow to be competitive.

Not to mention Suit commanders are 1+ in the codex so you're required to take at last one in your army...

Honestly...no...there is no way to make a good (good being a relative term here as even so they aren't great) without suits. A ton of firewarriors with pulse rifles seem awesome......but honestly it's not very scary.

As a basic troop firewarriors suck. They try to do anti-heavy infantry, anti-infantry, and anti-light tank all in one and fail at everything. Strength 5 at 30" seems awesome on paper until you start thinking about it.

1) They can't aim. BS3 is terrible.
2) They don't have the AP to do much to heavy infantry.
3) They don't have the number of shots to do much to hordes.
4) They don't have the strength to reliably do much to light vehicles.

Firewarrios can't specialize for anti-tank or anti-infantry duties (like almost every other basic troop can). They are essentially and Jack-of-all-Traders-Failure-of-All kind of unit. Their job is to sit in their Devilfish and capture objectives. They should only be in the open if: A) They get shot out of the Fish or B) are guaranteed to kill what their shooting at and have no chance of taking return fire.

Suits have all of your anti-vehicle and anti-heavy infantry ability.

Hammerheads and Pirahnas can only get you so far.

Da Kommizzar wrote:

Milisim wrote:My question would be if everyone tells you suits are needed why do you feel the need to not field suits?

Its like me choosing a Vulkan Hestan list and not using Flamers or Melta guns.....???

Can it be done of course you can field whatever you like using the codex.... will it be competitive? Most likely not.....

You could field 84 Fire Warriors with gun drones.... Take an Ethereal with Bodyguard and some IonHeads just to be 100% Opposite every Tau player..... Fun? Yes..... Win = Doubt it

Actually, 84 fire warriors with gundrones would be scary, hording with Str5 Range 30" weaponry. Key point: 84 of those shots! That is an entire army several times over in one shooting phase!

Let's (try and) get some statistics in on that:

Vs Guardsmen:
42 Hits, 34.986 wounds, 35 dead guardsmen out of cover, or 17.439 (17) dead guardsmen in 4+ cover.

Vs Orks:
42 Hits, 28.014 wounds, 28 dead Orks out of cover, or 14.007 (14) in 4+ cover.

Vs Necron Warriors:
42 Hits, 28.014 wounds, 14.007 down whether in cover or not, 9.342669 (9) dead.

Vs Space Marines:
42 Hits, 28.014 wounds, 9.328662 (9) dead whether in cover or not.

Vs Immortals:
42 Hits, 28.014 wounds, 9.328662 down, 6.222217554 (6) dead.

Vs Terminators:
42 Hits, 28.014 wounds, 4.678338 (5) dead.

Vs AV10:
42 Hits, 13.986 damaging hits, of which 6.993 are Glancing, an 6.993 are Penetrating. 3.4965 Glancing Shaken Results, 1.1655 Glancing Stunned results, 1.1655 Glancing Weapon Destroyed results, 1.1655 Glancing Immobilised results. 1.1655 Penetrating Shaken Results, 1.1655 Penetrating Stunned results, 1.1655 Penetrating Weapon Destroyed results, 1.1655 Penetrating Immobilised results, 1.1655 Penetrating Wrecked results, 1.1655 Penetrating Explodes results.

VS AV11:
42 Hits, 7.014 Glances, 3.507 Shaken results, 1.169 Stunned results, 1.169 Weapon Destroyed results, 1.169 Immobilised results.

So, ~800-900pts (all values approximated to avoid CR issues) worth of Fire Warriors can kill:
3.5 Infantry Platoons ~175pts (200pts for 4 platoons necessary) in cover, or just under two platoons ~85pts (100pts for 2 platoons necessary) in cover.
28 Orks - ~170pts outside cover, or 14 - ~85pts in cover.
9 Necron Warriors - ~120pts
9 Space Marines - Between 130-150pts depending on codex.
6 Immortals - ~100pts
5 Terminators - ~200pts

They can also:
Shake 4.662 (5) AV10 Vehicles
Stun 2.331 (2) AV10 Vehicles
Destroy 2.331 (2) weapons on AV10 Vehicles
Wreck 1.1655 (1) AV10 Vehicles
Blow up 1.1655 (1) AV10 Vehicles

Shake 3.507 (4) AV11 Vehicles
Stun 1.169 (1) AV11 Vehicles
Destroy 1.169 (1) weapons on AV11 Vehicles
Immobilise 1.169 (1) AV11 Vehicles

Hopefully that's all okay, since it's 3am and my head is pounding, so i've rushed it slightly.

They cannot:
Hurt AV12-14
Remove Quantum Shielding on Necron Vehicles (even if firing at the rear)

An all-FW army with no Battlesuits is one that flops against mech (especially Eldar and Necron mech) since it needs to concentrate fire to even stun, and your FWs can be ignored in favour of pulling down your Hammerheads, since they're the only things able to reliably kill armour.

That math pretty much sums it up. Even in scenarios where it sounds good the Tau are still losing. Not to mention the times are going to be very very rare when one target will be in range of everyone. More likely you get to kill 2-3 models from a couple different units and then just die.

This was a fun exercise but it seems fairly clear what the answer is.

-Myst

Nungunz wrote:Honestly...no...there is no way to make a good (good being a relative term here as even so they aren't great) without suits.

Shas'el, TL-MP, Shield, 88
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
8 Pathfinders, Shas'ui w/ Knife, 111
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
Piranha. Melta, Array, 70
Piranha. Melta, Array, 70
2 Sniper Teams, 160
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, 145
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, 145
1459

You should probably make the Suit into a Terminator killer, but I don't feel like mathhammering the best loadout. 40 points will let you figure it out though. Or you could spend it on Multi-trackers for the Devilfish, making them better interdictors.

The army has 17 Markerlights, 6 of which are BS4. It has the quantity of shots to deal with hordes, due to the Markerlights, and is sufficiently capable of destroying transports.

It is able to deal with any threat any army could give it; it is objectively good.

DarkHound wrote:

Nungunz wrote:Honestly...no...there is no way to make a good (good being a relative term here as even so they aren't great) without suits.

Shas'el, TL-MP, Shield, 88
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
8 Pathfinders, Shas'ui w/ Knife, 111
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
Piranha. Melta, Array, 70
Piranha. Melta, Array, 70
2 Sniper Teams, 160
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, 145
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, 145
1459

You should probably make the Suit into a Terminator killer, but I don't feel like mathhammering the best loadout. 40 points will let you figure it out though. Or you could spend it on Multi-trackers for the Devilfish, making them better interdictors.

The army has 17 Markerlights, 6 of which are BS4. It has the quantity of shots to deal with hordes, due to the Markerlights, and is sufficiently capable of destroying transports.

It is able to deal with any threat any army could give it; it is objectively good.

Way to go DH, instead of poopooing the guy on why his idea for plastic toy soldiers wouldn't work, you illustrated an army that would actually be playable and still embrace his idea.

DarkHound wrote:

Nungunz wrote:Honestly...no...there is no way to make a good (good being a relative term here as even so they aren't great) without suits.

Shas'el, TL-MP, Shield, 88
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
8 Pathfinders, Shas'ui w/ Knife, 111
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
Piranha. Melta, Array, 70
Piranha. Melta, Array, 70
2 Sniper Teams, 160
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, 145
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, 145
1459

You should probably make the Suit into a Terminator killer, but I don't feel like mathhammering the best loadout. 40 points will let you figure it out though. Or you could spend it on Multi-trackers for the Devilfish, making them better interdictors.

The army has 17 Markerlights, 6 of which are BS4. It has the quantity of shots to deal with hordes, due to the Markerlights, and is sufficiently capable of destroying transports.

It is able to deal with any threat any army could give it; it is objectively good.

Exalted, awesome post.

Aweomse post DarkHound.

The 84 Fire Warrior list at base (Ethereal, 12 FW Honour Guard, 72 Fire Warriors, with Bonding Knives) is 1019pts.

That's 12 BS4 Firewarriors and 72 BS3 Firewarriors.
So you get Vs:
GEQ: Hits:44, Wounds: 36.667, Wounds Lost: 36.667.
w/ Cover Saves: 18.333, Wounds Lost: 18.333.
MEQ: Hits: 44, Wounds: 29.333, Saves: 19.556, Wounds Lost: 9.778.
w/ FnP Saves: 19.556, FNP Saves: 4.889, Wounds Lost: 4.889.
TEQ: Hits: 44, Wounds: 29.333, Saves: 24.444, Wounds Lost: 4.889.
w/ FnP Saves: 24.444, FNP Saves: 2.444, Wounds Lost: 2.444.
AV10: Hits: 44, Glancing Hits: 7.333, Penetration Hits: 7.333.
for - Shaken: 4.889, Stunned: 2.444, Weapon Destroyed: 2.444, Immobilized: 2.444, Wrecked: 1.222, Explodes: 1.222.
w/ Cover Penetration Saves: 3.667, Penetration Hits: 3.667.
for - Shaken: 2.444, Stunned: 1.222, Weapon Destroyed: 1.222, Immobilized: 1.222, Wrecked: 0.611, Explodes: 0.611.

BUT if you look just at the math it's depressing.
Screw the math - I know all this and I'm still making an 84 FW list. Mostly because it's funny.
I'm probably going to get my butt handed to me, but then - maybe not, and in the remaining 481pts I need to fit in a battlesuit commander and some markerlights and/or something to deal with vehicles over AV10. Probably going to be taking broadsides and a couple of deathrains just for points economy.

And who knows how Fire Warriors will be in the next codex, ultimately just do what you want and have fun with it.

DarkHound wrote:

Nungunz wrote:Honestly...no...there is no way to make a good (good being a relative term here as even so they aren't great) without suits.

Shas'el, TL-MP, Shield, 88
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Knife, Target Lock, Markerlight, 130
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
8 Pathfinders, Shas'ui w/ Knife, 111
Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array, 110
Piranha. Melta, Array, 70
Piranha. Melta, Array, 70
2 Sniper Teams, 160
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, 145
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, 145
1459

You should probably make the Suit into a Terminator killer, but I don't feel like mathhammering the best loadout. 40 points will let you figure it out though. Or you could spend it on Multi-trackers for the Devilfish, making them better interdictors.

The army has 17 Markerlights, 6 of which are BS4. It has the quantity of shots to deal with hordes, due to the Markerlights, and is sufficiently capable of destroying transports.

It is able to deal with any threat any army could give it; it is objectively good.

My main issue is taking the SMSs. Drop those, and you can afford a 3rd Sniper Team

DarkHound wrote:Devilfish, SMS, DisPod, Array,

Nicely done, DarkHound. I was thinking of posting something similar as I read the thread, but you beat me to it. Mine would have differed heading toward 1850, instead of SkyRays, I'd use 3 railheads, and two full sized kroot units, with dogs. Also, heading to 2k, 1 or 2 full squadrons of piranhas, with PFs filing the balance of Fast Attack.

Lastly, the Warfish need MTs to Move&Shoot like Fast Vehicles.

That list just shows how unexceptional Tau are without suits....

The questions was can Tau be viable without suits...

I can make a Kroot bomb list with 1500 pts with a few Piranhas thrown in for AT does that make it Viable? No... it makes its a list without suits... like the OP asked.

I could take 18 Stealth suits, 30 Vespids and some Sniper drones too.... the reality of Tau is that without a suit on the field other than the HQ.... Tau are sub par....

Missles and Plasma give us our killy stuff....

Not to mention the XV88 SUIT is CRITICAL for Tau.

Skyrays are garbage, mass Pulse rifle fire is ineffective againt mech lists etc....

Tau without suits = Fun games
Tau without suits = Most likely a loss

ÆΞØИ wrote:
I have being told by numerous Tau players that without using any suit and their variants, i shouldn't bother with Tau

Can anyone help me with a viable list and its tactics? Commander in crisis suit is an exception Im willing to make for HQ.

I think a big part of this would be how to utilize the tools that you have.

For example, the base 30" gun on the fire warrior is quite nice. But you just can't throw 10 of those guys on the table and expect them to live. The first thing that comes near them will assault them to bits. You have to have a devilfish next to them so they can hop on board if an assault is incoming.

You also need the right tools to crack heavy and light armor. Piranha's fill that role quite well for heavy armor. You would still need good solutions to take down light armor.

DarkHound's list met a lot of those requirements. I think that would be a good starting point.

I sold all my suits a few months ago, but before I did so, I had to have a way to win with tau. I found it.

Shadow sun and an ethereal with shield drones. Take the ethereal and toss on a team of three broadsides, that have 2 shield drones. They basically won't die. Place them in multi-level ruins for insurance.

You don't need the ethereal, but that re-roll for leadership has saved me countless times. He's also never died in all the games I've played with him.

Shadowsun can deep strike in, remember that. exellent use of HQ slot and anti-tank.

Then I take FW teams, and pathfinder teams. I will sprinkle in kroot, vespid and/or piranha.

Make sure you take broadsides though, at least 1 team of 3. More are better, though I only own 3...

You can make do with simply hammerheads, but you will need piranha teams, which means you will take less pathfinders, which make fire warriors so much better.

I also take steath teams, and stealth marker teams from time to time.

In order to make a tau list work without crisis suits, you just need to make sure you can destroy tanks while keeping your anti-infantry shots still effective.

Edit: Also, that list darkhound posted is pretty terrible. No shield drones on the HQ? Too many crappy warfishes, either go broke or don't try. The markerlights on the FW teams aren't going to help anything really but the odd seeker missile shot. The sniper teams need to be removed. Hell the piranhas don't even have disruption pods...


Here is a decent tau list I tossed together:

Shadowsun

12 Fire warriors with 'ui and bonding

20 Kroot + shaper and 4 hounds

20 Kroot + shaper and 4 hounds

8 Pathfinders and devilfish with pods

3 Broadsides with ASS, team lead, bonding, 2 shield drones, HWbsf and target lock,

Hammerhead with railgun, burst cannons, pods, multi-tracker, target lock, bsf

Hammerhead with railgun, burst cannons, pods, multi-tracker, target lock, bsf

1499 points

Anyone who plays tau knows the basics, and list take all comers 1500 list for tau will handle anything that gets thrown at it.

Bad Tau lists are still bad. Darkhound, your list meets the requirement but it just won't stand up against. . . .anything remotely competitive. The ability to deal with 4 AV 12/11/10 and 2 AV 13/12/10, simply isn't that difficult, even with cover. As it is you push into mid field and kill what. . . a tank or 2? Maybe even all game? 12 missile shots ALL game is simply pathetic, and don't even pretend the meltas will get one or even 2 shots.

If you want to actually win games against anything but the softest of lists you will need suits, else you'll get blasted off the table 95% of the time until you roll the miracle game where every missile you fire kills a vehicle and you make all your cover saves.

MrDrumMachine wrote:Bad Tau lists are still bad. Darkhound, your list meets the requirement but it just won't stand up against. . . .anything remotely competitive.

That wasn't a requirement of the OP. Frankly, only Grey Knights and Space Wolves are competitive right now. Anything even IG can do, Grey Knights can do better with Corteaz. The highest echelons are so stupidly min-maxed that considering any other army is moot.

My list can kill 3 AV11 vehicles with missiles alone, and will virtually always get side armor. Plus the Sniper Teams (when boosted to BS5) will penetrate an AV11 target every turn. Every sniper can fire at a different target, which gives you huge flexibility. 1 Squad of Firewarrirors glances AV11 1.3 times at BS5. Hell, the Devilfish, with 1 boost to their BS, will glance an enemy Rhino every turn.

Looking at it now, glancing 6 or more vehicles is pretty easy with just the Firewarriors, Devilfish and Snipers. BA or GK Razorback spam would get wrecked pretty hard by this list. Virtually any build of DE loses pretty hard. IG won't have fun when I hit their Chimeras' side armor (the missiles kill 4 Chimeras or artillery), though a Russ Spam would be tough. Necrons would also be a tough match. I've only got enough missiles to penetrate 2 vehicles, and the Piranhas would account for another 2.

15 S8 would inflict 1.5 penetrating hits on the Devilfish (meaning a dead fish every other turn if he focuses on them). The Fire Warriors could return fire to kill 5 Long Fangs, but it would be more effective to fire at the Rhinos and kill every advancing Space Marine. There would still be a Devilfish available on turn 4 to rush for an objective.

@Darkhound... OP asked for "viable" list. While we can debate the meaning of "viable", most of us took it to mean at least somewhat competative.

That said, good response in defense of your list. I'm not a big fan of sniper teams, but with marker lights like you mentioned they may be able to do some damage. I'm not really seeing the fish as a threat to anything though, and the pirhannas and marker lights are probably targets number one and two. After the first enemy turn this army will have a bunch of firewarriors and some transport vehicles.... is that enough to win? I don't know.

-Myst

The only Markerlights he can actually get rid of are the Pathfinders, which can go to ground. The Snipers have Stealth fields, the FWs have enough Markerlights to deploy missiles, and the Skyrays are mighty tough to remove given that they don't necessarily need LoS. The Devilfish can gang up on Razorbacks; 2 firing only the SMS at BS4 inflict a glancing hit. Razorbacks that lose their gun are useless because their cargo is generally deadweight, while Rhinos that get Immobilized are equally useless.

So if they focus on the Pathfinders, you'll glance 2 Rhinos with the Fish, 2 more with the Warriors, and another with the Snipers. Plus you've got 3 Markerlight hits (allocated completely independently of the previous shooting) to play with, assuming the Skyrays are behind cover or moving to get side armor shots. Use those for missiles and you'll penetrate a Dreadnought.

Or yo could just simply plonk 9 Broadisdes with ASS down and be done with all this math and simply EXPLODE lots of SM stuff every turn =]

so after you wreck whatever vehicles they happen to have in turns 1 and 2, what are those several hundred points of 1shot death goign to do what, snipe down 5-6 marines a turn?

I much prefer the 2 Hammerheads, 3 Broadsides approach for vastly improved versatility.

4 less shots, but while 2 that you have aren't twinlinked, they can drop a str6 large blast a turn instead.

And 2 large templates do so well at killing SM.....

They still get there save and any FNP they can muster....

6 Dead marines vs how many dead from a pieplate?


Ill take Turns 3-6 killing 5-6 marines any day... Thats 20-25 less marines than we started with over 4 turns and thats only using 9 suits..... I'll take it.

Pie Plate may cover 5 marines... STR6 V T4 = 4 saves to be made... They pass 66% of them leaving 1 dead....

So your 2 LG Templates kills 2 marines compared to my 5-6 Insta gibbed.....

Granted against horde HH rocks some ass.... Against SM, Termies etc.... Ill take 9 XV88's please and thank you!

Milisim wrote:Or yo could just simply plonk 9 Broadisdes with ASS down and be done with all this math and simply EXPLODE lots of SM stuff every turn =]

ASS is horribly expensive and worthless on a unit that shouldn't move unless it has to, as the only reason you'd want them to move is if they have replaced their standard weapon, and even than you'd likely prefer to have Multi-Tracker rather than ASS.

You should be taking target locks so you don't go overboard with hitting vehicles, Unless you really need a specific one down, you can take down 3 raiders a turn with this method rather than just over killing one.

By the way, a Devilfish with a Multitracker, Target Lock, and Disruption Pods only scores 1 less hit than a Warfish (the above plus SMS). That frees up 40 points on my build. If you strip out the HQ, you've got 176 points to spend on shoring up your anti-AV14.

Or you could get an Ethereal and turn one of the Warrior squads into Honour Guard. Dropping the Knives will save you 30 points, so you only need 20 more for the Ethereal, then 20 again the Firewarriors, which is more efficient than buying Markerlights... Oh dear. I'm glad no one checked my math, because apparently I didn't add the Snipers. Which means that 1459 is without them. The list posted, minus the Snipers, works, but if I could go add Battlesuits I'd do this:

Shas'el, TL-Fusion, Stim, Shield, 98
Ethereal, 50
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
Monat, TL-Fusion, Flamer, 47
10 Honor Guard, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 145
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 125
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
10 Firewarriors, Shas'ui, Target Lock, Markerlight, 125
Devilfish, Tracker, DisPod, Array, 100
8 Pathfinders, 96
Devilfish, DisPod, 2 Seekers, 110
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, Tracker, 155
Skyray, Array, Burstcannons, DisPods, Tracker, 155
1500

You'll notice the Pathfinder's Fish lacks the gun upgrades. In this list, it should be moving to give the Deepstriking Suits their re-roll. While it is hiding, or when it has sprinted forward, it can deploy Seeker Missiles. You can do the same thing with Pirhanas, but this gives the list a more interesting dynamic. Oh, and the Skyrays got trackers so they can move 12" and fire both Markers.

Milisim wrote:Ill take Turns 3-6 killing 5-6 marines any day... Thats 20-25 less marines than we started with over 4 turns and thats only using 9 suits..... I'll take it.

Mathhammer it out sir.

6 broadsides shooting every turn for 4 turns gives 24 shots.
Of those 8/9 hit, so you can expect about 21.5 hits.
Of those 5/6 wound, so you can expect about 18 wounds.
Of those, you can expect half to make cover saves so your looking at 9 dead MEQ.
As broadsides need to sit so far back, its easy to get cover from them.
Assuming you were able to focus on the same squad, after 4 rounds of shooting broadsides into them, you can expect to kill ~200 points of MEQ and earning 1 KP. Your return is much greater if your targeting long fangs, but how many points were those broadsides, especially with the required shield/gun drones to keep them alive?
The point is that MEQ are not efficient targets for broadsides. As such, there is a point of diminishing returns on how many you should bring.

I'm with Ovion on this.
Bringing some hammerheads gives you more AV 13 targets for the opponenet to worry about. Unlike the broadsides, the hammerheads are more maneuverable allowing you to contest objectives. They are quite large, so your able to block of sections of the board with them giving more tactical options. Finally, they are more flexable, as the blast template can be used vs MEQ in cover. Is it better to wound 5 MEQ with a 3+ cover save or to wound 3 with a 4+ cover save?
How much difference is there in cost between the 3 kitted broadsides and the hammerhead? I don't have the codex in front of my and I ask that as a serious question. If the cost is over 100 points, are those points you can use elsewhere (like more crisis suits)

Don't get me wrong. Broadsides are scary. I just think that 9 in an army might be a bit of overkill.

3x 3x Broadside w/ 2x Target Lock, 2x Drone Controller, 4x Shield Drone
= 855 (285 a squad).
This is going to be reasonably hard to kill with 4 4+* ablative wounds and has 9 shots, each able to hit a different target.

Which mathammers these results (all assuming 4+ cover):
so 2-3 a turn with cover, 5-6 without.

2x Hammerheads w/ Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods and Blacksun Filter +
Broadside w/ 2x Target Lock, 2x Drone Controller, 4x Shield Drone
= 605 (160 a hammerhead, 285 a squad).

That's 1 squad of Broadsides, still 3 targets, plus 2 AV13 tanks which have their own 4+ cover save that can also fire a Str 6 AP4 Large Blast
Mathing out (I'm assuming 6 models a large blast here.)
or the tl;dr - with cover: 6 dead guardsman, 4 dead marines, 2-3 dead terminators.
OR 12 dead guardsman, 5 dead marines and 3 dead terminators without.

So ultimately, for 250pts less you lose 4 Str10 AP1 shots, but gain the option of 2 large blasts.
Against Marines you're gaining a succesful wound a turn, against termis you're about the same and against guard you gain 4-6 wounds a turn.