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I’m getting really sick of people referring to GW minis as “luxury items”. Sure, in a broad definition they are luxuries in the sense that no one needs to buy them (as opposed to necessities). But by that definition most of what most people spend their money on is a luxury. Your Wii is a luxury. Your chocolate is a luxury. Your baseball cap is a luxury. The fact that you don't need any of those items to survive would never justify charging outrageous prices for any of those things.

Luxury goods are things that increase in demand as price rises, or that are a status symbol, or that are of exceptional-quality versions of a standard market item. Porsches, gold, Armani, premium champagne… these are luxury goods. They justify their expense by being desirable because they are expensive, by being of far superior quality to their standard market equivalents, or by helping the person who buys them gain esteem in the eyes of their peers.

GW minis don’t do any of these things. They are not more desirable for being more expensive- as the latest economic news from GW clearly shows. They are not of significantly higher quality than standard market miniatures. In fact, there are examples released as recently as this year of GW miniatures that are of significantly lower quality than standard market miniatures. And spending thousands of dollars on GW miniatures will never increase anyone’s esteem for you- in fact it has a very real chance of drastically decreasing people’s esteem, however undeserved that may be.

The claim that GW goods are luxury items is pure circular reasoning. “GW miniatures are expensive because they are luxury items. They are luxury items because they are expensive.”

No, they are not luxury goods- they are niche entertainment goods. Goods that should be sold at as low of a price as is possible to encourage as many people as possible to play.

Nerd Rage!

JOHIRA wrote:.............................................Goods that should be sold at as low of a price as is possible to encourage as many people as possible to play.

Dem soun' like socialist words to me boy! [loads shotgun]

Seriouly though i'm not sure how else [in economic terms] you would describe "niche entertainment goods".

And spending thousands of dollars on GW miniatures will never increase anyone’s esteem for you- in fact it has a very real chance of drastically decreasing people’s esteem, however undeserved that may be.

Not true other nerds will bow to your superior nerdage. Size always matters, sorry.

it's called a hobby. it's to be enjoyed, not to be worried over wether it's worth it or not.

frankly, it's not worth it. we buy it for the love of the game.
I've spent at least 2,000 on it, and I feel it's been a good investment.
I'm getting better at painting, arguments become easier for me, I'm proud of my work. thats why it's so worth it. not because it's a status item.

I think the point that was being made is that they are not essentials (like food, air and Branston Pickle), luxury items was just a term to differentiate from essentials.

Obviously some people will see them as essential, they are nerds.

Stand up and be counted!

@ Captain Solon- you're right in saying that its a hobby and that its a fair investment because we all love the game. Yes its a skill and people are proud of their armies and how much work they have put into them, and rightly so.
However, the only complaints or ridicule of had for the hobby isn't "You spend HOW long painting them?!" or "Why do you bother learning all those rules when you could play xbox?", its always people saying "what the feth is wrong with you?! why have you spent 3 grand on plastic toy soldiers?!"

Because of the INSANE price (when you consider the cost of the raw material's, production and stuff is probably about 30% of the retail price) I've had dozens of people slate it as a hobby. Ateast 15 of these peope who slate the hobby have come round mine before a night out or somthing, walked into my gaming room, sat down and looked at the pictures in the rule book/codex and seen my gaming table set out and say "This looks awesome, I'd get into it if it wasnt such a rip off"

It's never going to change, but its such a shame that so many people that would otherwise be enjoying the hobby can't. Purely because GW think its reasonable to sell a book for £45 and then as a bare minimum you need to spend another £50 on figures and probably £20 on glue/paint ect. The way it is all priced means it is hard for Warhammer to purely be "a hobby", most people can't afford to have a decent army, all the rules, a board, scenery and then have any more disposable income to do alot else.

Here is the wiki definition for a luxury good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_good

Go nutz attempting to interpret this.

JOHIRA wrote:I’m getting really sick of people referring to GW minis as “luxury items”. Sure, in a broad definition they are luxuries in the sense that no one needs to buy them (as opposed to necessities). But by that definition most of what most people spend their money on is a luxury. Your Wii is a luxury. Your chocolate is a luxury. Your baseball cap is a luxury. The fact that you don't need any of those items to survive would never justify charging outrageous prices for any of those things.

Luxury goods are things that increase in demand as price rises, or that are a status symbol, or that are of exceptional-quality versions of a standard market item. Porsches, gold, Armani, premium champagne… these are luxury goods. They justify their expense by being desirable because they are expensive, by being of far superior quality to their standard market equivalents, or by helping the person who buys them gain esteem in the eyes of their peers.

GW minis don’t do any of these things. They are not more desirable for being more expensive- as the latest economic news from GW clearly shows. They are not of significantly higher quality than standard market miniatures. In fact, there are examples released as recently as this year of GW miniatures that are of significantly lower quality than standard market miniatures. And spending thousands of dollars on GW miniatures will never increase anyone’s esteem for you- in fact it has a very real chance of drastically decreasing people’s esteem, however undeserved that may be.

The claim that GW goods are luxury items is pure circular reasoning. “GW miniatures are expensive because they are luxury items. They are luxury items because they are expensive.”

No, they are not luxury goods- they are niche entertainment goods. Goods that should be sold at as low of a price as is possible to encourage as many people as possible to play.

What you're giving as an example is often referred to as a "Veblen Good", which is something that supposedly behaves the way you described, which is opposite the way it "should", that is, as the price goes up demand goes up. Not everyone agrees with this concept, as it implies that what is *defined* as a Veblen good has a higher desirability just because of its price, and not taking into account that the good may indeed have other factors that make it desirable, such as better workmanship or aesthetic value.

Either way, GW is not considered a luxury brand.

Counterpoint: Games Workshop Plc is to Wargaming as Aston Martin Lagonda Limited is to Cars. It's a manufacturer of a particular type of good. The armchair econimist definition of "luxury good" basically allows that as you've more money, you'll buy more of the good. Well, I think we can all say that is most often true of the Warhammer games, otherwise we wouldn't be here. There is also a decline in purchasing if you consider the lower end of the spectrum of income. This is also true; if you make x amount of money, where x is just above, say, poverty level, you probably don't have much disposable income, ergo, you're spending most of it on food/gas/clothing/rent/etc. What little you might have you could consider spending on "enertainment", which could include Warhammer, for some definitions of enertainment. Now, you COULD buy y of Games Workshop's Space Marine models, or for the same cost, you could buy 2*y of Pasttimes Garage's "Non-atmospheric Navy Seals" models. Assuming that, for all intents and purposes, Pasttimes Garage stuff was comperable to GW's, excepting that you don't have the "prestige" of taking it to GW tournaments, and that everyone who sees it can probably identify that it's not GW make, and now you've just made GW a luxury good. I do agree that, while arguably true, people call it a luxury good for the wrong reasons, but to anyone who's not an economist/economics professor/taken an intro economics class, luxury goods = non-essentials.

daedalus wrote:Counterpoint: Games Workshop Plc is to Wargaming as Aston Martin Lagonda Limited is to Cars. It's a manufacturer of a particular type of good.

No, it's not. GW does not have anywhere near the quality or presteige compared to their rivals that Aston Martin has to its rivals.

excepting that you don't have the "prestige" of taking it to GW tournaments, and that everyone who sees it can probably identify that it's not GW make, and now you've just made GW a luxury good.

1. There is no presteige to GW tournaments.
2. It's very possible that everyone who sees the model can identify it is not GW make because it is superior to GW's product.

I know plenty of wargame companies who like to charge just as much as GW...

JOHIRA wrote:

daedalus wrote:Counterpoint: Games Workshop Plc is to Wargaming as Aston Martin Lagonda Limited is to Cars. It's a manufacturer of a particular type of good.

No, it's not. GW does not have anywhere near the quality or presteige compared to their rivals that Aston Martin has to its rivals.

excepting that you don't have the "prestige" of taking it to GW tournaments, and that everyone who sees it can probably identify that it's not GW make, and now you've just made GW a luxury good.

1. There is no presteige to GW tournaments.
2. It's very possible that everyone who sees the model can identify it is not GW make because it is superior to GW's product.

Nonsense. When some up and comer at the country club comes up with his new Patek Phillipe, I quickly move over and casually steer the conversation toward my latest purchase of OOP harlequin jetbike canopies. I'll mention with a slight chuckle that they're still *making* his model of watch.

JOHIRA wrote:I’m getting really sick of people referring to GW minis as “luxury items”. Sure, in a broad definition they are luxuries

Excellent.

in the sense that no one needs to buy them (as opposed to necessities). But by that definition most of what most people spend their money on is a luxury.

That depends on what people you are talking about. I know plenty of people who spend very little on luxuries. Just because you're middle or upper class doesn't mean that most people are.

Luxury goods are things that increase in demand as price rises, or that are a status symbol, or that are of exceptional-quality versions of a standard market item. Porsches, gold, Armani, premium champagne… these are luxury goods. They justify their expense by being desirable because they are expensive, by being of far superior quality to their standard market equivalents, or by helping the person who buys them gain esteem in the eyes of their peers.

So, according to your definition, ForgeWorld would be a luxury, while standard GW isn't. My peers are other gamers, and everyone has esteem for the FW stuff.

The claim that GW goods are luxury items is pure circular reasoning.

No, it isn't circular reasoning, it's looking for a word to differentiate them from essentials. What word would you have us use?

No, they are not luxury goods- they are niche entertainment goods. Goods that should be sold at as low of a price as is possible to encourage as many people as possible to play.

It doesn't matter if we're losing money, we'll make it up in volume? Really? As a corporation, GW has a responsibility to make money, not to get as many people as possible playing their game. IF those two things coincide then it is in their best interest to get more people playing. But, on the other hand, if they can turn more of a profit by selling at higher prices to fewer people and make their return on the margin then you're just plain wrong. Goods should be sold at the price that leads to the best return for the shareholder, and you've presented no argument or data to show why selling for less accomplishes that.

JOHIRA wrote:
1. There is no presteige to GW tournaments.

You haven't hung around the Tournament Discussions forum have you. Fights about who is the best 40k player can go on for ten pages. If that's not prestigious, I don't know what is.

Give me a few good examples of recent products that are worse that their competiters' brands. Don't show just beastmen now!

I think that it just depends on what you view a luxury as. What one person see as a luxury another person might see it as rubbish.

JOHIRA wrote:
1. There is no presteige to GW tournaments.
2. It's very possible that everyone who sees the model can identify it is not GW make because it is superior to GW's product.

1. That's why I put it in quotes. Needless to say, your level of involvment in the "Hobby" becomes exclusive based upon the quality of model you have. If you don't buy the right stuff, you're not part of the group.
2. GW bashing aside, see #1.

Grignard wrote:Nonsense. When some up and comer at the country club comes up with his new Patek Phillipe, I quickly move over and casually steer the conversation toward my latest purchase of OOP harlequin jetbike canopies. I'll mention with a slight chuckle that they're still *making* his model of watch.

Haha, now I've had people within a 3 desk radius of me ask why I was laughing so hard. Embarassing to have to tell him that it was over the Economics of Toy Soldiers.

Redbeard wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:
1. There is no presteige to GW tournaments.

You haven't hung around the Tournament Discussions forum have you. Fights about who is the best 40k player can go on for ten pages. If that's not prestigious, I don't know what is.

LOL!
Thanks daedalus, you made me laugh aloud and make an ass of myself at work

I'd actually call it a luxury. Anything I don't need but have anyway is a luxury.

Cable television, shampoo, microwave, cuff-links, watch

All of those things are a luxury to me. Things that aren't a luxury:
Electricity,computer, running water, house, refrigerator, clothes and shoes

I say computer because this is the 21st century, where you need an email address to apply for food stamps

Samus_aran115 wrote:I'd actually call it a luxury. Anything I don't need but have anyway is a luxury.

Cable television, shampoo, microwave, cuff-links, watch

All of those things are a luxury to me. Things that aren't a luxury:
Electricity,computer, running water, house, refrigerator, clothes and shoes

I say computer because this is the 21st century, where you need an email address to apply for food stamps

Computer is not a necessity...

Walk to the public library if you need to use one that bad.

I also consider shampoo and soap necessities.... You need to stay clean to stay healthy, you can get a bottle of shampoo for a dollar...

RandyMcStab wrote:I think the point that was being made is that they are not essentials (like food, air and Branston Pickle),

I still remember your panic-buying of Branston when the factory burnt down...

GW tout the 'we're making the best of the best' in order to facilitate the comparitively high prices.

Give it 4-5 years and it won't matter, the smaller firms will start producing multipart plastics and GW's vaulted IP won't matter.. Take a look at Enigma miniatures or Inifnity or many others... once those guys can mass produce multipart fantasy and scifi minis, GW will finally, FINALLY, have the competition it needs to cut it down into a competitively priced company with a changed attitude.

It only gets to act up due to being the only dealer of our particular brand of crack in town. Once others shape up, things will change.

notprop wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:.............................................Goods that should be sold at as low of a price as is possible to encourage as many people as possible to play.

Dem soun' like socialist words to me boy! [loads shotgun]

Seriouly though i'm not sure how else [in economic terms] you would describe "niche entertainment goods".

And spending thousands of dollars on GW miniatures will never increase anyone’s esteem for you- in fact it has a very real chance of drastically decreasing people’s esteem, however undeserved that may be.

Not true other nerds will bow to your superior nerdage. Size always matters, sorry.

Nope
A good socialist like myself would nationalise the Gaming industry as a key utility.

to the OP
Of course they are a luxury.
What the feth else are they for everyone other than rich nerds, who it is true, seem to have an irrational craving to fork out lots of tin for plastic soldiers and resin mega vehicles of polygunnagedness.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I'd actually call it a luxury. Anything I don't need but have anyway is a luxury.

Cable television, shampoo, microwave, cuff-links, watch

All of those things are a luxury to me. Things that aren't a luxury:
Electricity,computer, running water, house, refrigerator, clothes and shoes

I say computer because this is the 21st century, where you need an email address to apply for food stamps

Computer is not a necessity...

Walk to the public library if you need to use one that bad.

I also consider shampoo and soap necessities.... You need to stay clean to stay healthy, you can get a bottle of shampoo for a dollar...

My hair's too long for cheap shampoo

OP wrote:GW should charge less when people are willing to pay more!

Catyrpelius wrote:Nerd Rage!

QFT!

If people continue to buy at higher price points, then GW should continue to raise prices.

That said, if GW finally prices me out of the market to the point that everything is more than what I'm willing to pay, woe is me -- I guess I'll just have to make do with the 25,000+ pts of 40k stuff I already own, along with my masses of Fantasy, Gothic, Necromunda and other stuff. Woe is me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Give it 4-5 years and it won't matter, the smaller firms will start producing multipart plastics and GW's vaulted IP won't matter.. Take a look at Enigma miniatures or Inifnity or many others... once those guys can mass produce multipart fantasy and scifi minis, GW will finally, FINALLY, have the competition it needs to cut it down into a competitively priced company with a changed attitude.

It only gets to act up due to being the only dealer of our particular brand of crack in town. Once others shape up, things will change.

This is pure comedy gold. Privateer's plastic costs more than their metals. Infinity and Malifaux models are more expensive than GW.As we've seen with Battlefront's Flames and Privateer's Warmachine, they will simply follow GW's lead and charge more to ensure they get a fair profit themselves.

Point of fact: GW sets a price floor for the other players in the market. Nobody stays around with a business model that undercuts GW prices when gamers have demonstrated again and again that they will pay ever-increasing amounts for their toys.

Johira, I understand what you mean, but it's just an argument over definition. You admit in a broad sense they are luxury items, then argue that so are most things. I agree, they are. When you think of little Miguel in Mexico who has to walk 3 miles to get water from a polluted river and spends the rest of the day foraging in a dump desperately trying to find something to sell for a few pesos, you realize that most Americans are surrounded by luxuries. But you then go on to redefine 'luxuries' into a narrower definition to exclude GW. That's fine if that's your perspective. But if you know that is not the definition other people are using, you will fail to drive your point home if you can't convince them to do likewise.

I myself am impressed when I see a large well painted apocalypse 40K army. To me, it means some guy sacrificed buying other things to buy GW products, which I personally do find superior to other products. Why? Not for quality of molding or cost of materials, but because of the grand story they are telling through the game. No one else makes my daemonettes, space marines, sisters of battle. No one else tells the story of the dying emperor and the fall of the eldar. These things have value to me. If they do not to you, then that's fine too. Yes, I can live without them, I just choose not to. And I must own up to my choice, and not blame GW. They do not jump into my pocket and steal my money. If Privateer Press had conjured up a world and a mythos and a dream as grand as 40K, I might go over to them. Sorry, they have not in my eyes...

But I wish you well in your gaming, and pray you will find a game and models that make you happy and that do not come at too high a cost. Be well Johira, and be blessed!

---Dreg

Samus_aran115 wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I'd actually call it a luxury. Anything I don't need but have anyway is a luxury.

Cable television, shampoo, microwave, cuff-links, watch

All of those things are a luxury to me. Things that aren't a luxury:
Electricity,computer, running water, house, refrigerator, clothes and shoes

I say computer because this is the 21st century, where you need an email address to apply for food stamps

Computer is not a necessity...

Walk to the public library if you need to use one that bad.

I also consider shampoo and soap necessities.... You need to stay clean to stay healthy, you can get a bottle of shampoo for a dollar...

My hair's too long for cheap shampoo

Cut it then... Long hair is a luxury you dont need in hard economic times

OP - I can kind of see where you are coming from, but I think trying to argue that toy soldiers are anything other than a luxury item means you are on a hiding to nothing.

Yes, there are different 'levels' of luxury and what constitutes that definition - ie. the difference between a Ford and an Aston Martin. Both can be termed a luxury item but one is much more prestigious than the other.

JOHIRA wrote:

Luxury goods are things that increase in demand as price rises.

You are incorrect a luxury item is not something that sees increasing demand as price rises.

"In economics, a luxury good is a good for which demand increases more than proportionally as income rises, in contrast to a "necessity good", for which demand is not related to income"

So as you can see a luxury good is not defined by its price. So yes GW miniatures are luxury items.

I'm sold! I will no longer refer to GW minis as a luxury item.

From now on I will refer to them simply as "gak I don't really need."

Gorechild wrote:Because of the INSANE price (when you consider the cost of the raw material's, production and stuff is probably about 30% of the retail price)

Have you ever drunk a can of Coke?

MeanGreenStompa wrote: once those guys can mass produce multipart fantasy and scifi minis, GW will finally, FINALLY, have the competition it needs to cut it down into a competitively priced company with a changed attitude.

This.

It's interesting to note that GW's shareholder statement came out yesterday. After nearly being run into the ground 5 years ago, the company is to the point where it plans on repaying the last of it's debts this year. This kind of recapitalization is astonishing, given that lots of companies are folding due to the recession.

Anyways, to the OP, their strategy is pretty clearly stated:

Games Workshop wrote:We know that, for a niche like ours, people who are interested in collecting fantasy miniatures will choose the best quality and be prepared
to pay what they are worth.

You seriously have no idea what luxury items are apparently. By it's base definition anything you don't necessarily need to live in an acceptable state (food, housing, etc.) is a luxury. Unless you eat GW minis to sustain your life they are indeed luxury items.

Also as stated earlier by brettz123, please do some research in basic economics before starting a rant like this.

There are people in the world who consider proper plumbing an luxury item. Stop raging, it's just annoying.