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LOL. They nerfed non-Mars Boats too. They no longer hover!

i mean all that did was grant heavy movement, which is built into the game now as a vehicle.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i mean all that did was grant heavy movement, which is built into the game now as a vehicle.

Oh. I missed that. Man, the second half of the Mars Canticle is so useless in this army. I guess it's only essential for Servitors? Lol...

Servitors and our Techpriests since they have heavy weapons and dont ignore it...strangely...
Everything else is non-infantry and heavy only affects infantry lol.

So yeah, Mars canticle is just +1Str now. Which is still pretty dang good.

So if were limited to 1 Holy trait, which is it the goto yathink?
My initial thought was exploding 6's one (i still cant remember which is which), since that one feels the most impactful and isnt JUST the exploding 6's i'd want to use in a normal list. But thats just the obvious one, the others have extremely good uses too just not as "in general" (obviously the fall back and shoot for vehicles is strong, but if you arent Robot heavy you probably dont care)

 Kanluwen wrote:
Taking a Holy Order requires the model to be your Warlord.

If an Adeptus Mechanicus Character model (excluding named characters) is your Warlord, you can select a Warlord Trait from below for them instead of using the Warlord Traits table from Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus.

Mechanicus Locum:

Use this Stratagem before the battle after nominating your Warlord. Select one <Forge World> Character model from your army that does not have a Warlord Trait and determine one Warlord Trait for it; it is regarded as your Warlord for the purposes of that Warlord Trait. Each Warlord Trait in your army must be unique (if randomly generated, re-roll duplicate results).

Holy Order has a specific set of 'boxes' you have to tick, and that is "Is this model your Warlord?". If Yes--congrats, you can go to step two: "Is this model a named character?". If no--congrats, you can give them a Holy Order.

Explain to me how that's different than the base Warlord traits?

If an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS CHARACTER is your Warlord, they can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your general’s battlefield imperatives.

Is the model your Warlord? No? Too bad, Mechanicus Locus doesn't make it your warlord so you can't take one.

There's even precedent for taking a different trait as an alternative to the base table:

If you wish, you can pick a Forge World Warlord Trait from the list below instead of from the Adeptus Mechanicus Warlord Traits, but only if your Warlord is from that forge world.

Under this FAQ, are you not allowed to take Forge World traits too?

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i mean all that did was grant heavy movement, which is built into the game now as a vehicle.

Oh. I missed that. Man, the second half of the Mars Canticle is so useless in this army. I guess it's only essential for Servitors? Lol...

The first half is the 'no penalty for moving and firing'...second is the bonus to strength.

And it's possible that we'll be seeing some stuff coming or that they address the interaction between Cognis Weapons and Advancing soon.

Darkhound:
At this point, there's no answer that I think you'll accept. Simply put, if you planned on running a bunch of them? That's on you for suddenly having your plans cut out from under you. They're putting caps on special stuff like Captains, Lieutenants, and they had caps on things like Tau Commanders and Guard Command Squads.

Did you really expect to be able to stack up on these?

@DarkHound
It's doublethink. It has the exact same wording as other stratagems that confer WLTs. But this one is limited to one and only your Warlord, which conflicts with prior rulings.

@Vineheart01
I think I am sticking to Cawl's default. The 9" aura is very valuable. There is always a point in the game where you need to spread out to cover different sight lines.

That said, the Magos WLT is tempting since I run 3x Dakkabots.

Thoughts?

I understand that they're making the ruling. That's fine for me personally. I wasn't planning on using more than one. It does mean you can't take one in allied detachments, which is only a mild inconvenience.

It just annoys me that they added this rule in the worst possible way. It would be a problem if we didn't already know not to read into the text as written. It would actually be better if it just said "No."

 0XFallen wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/UmXOUOqTko49pABx.pdf

Here are some fixes in our updated Faq.

Archaopter is now legally skitarii.
Pteraxii Alpha also has talons.
Forgeworld canticle schenanigans are removed.

Can someone please explain this to me?
Q: Can the Mechanicus Locum Stratagem be used to give
characters other than your warlord one of the Holy Order
Warlord Traits?
A: No. The Character is only considered your Warlord for the
purposes of the Warlord Trait itself, not for what Warlord Traits
it has access to.

Also, when you now move only one model in a unit, the whole unit counts as moved. Would that mean our arquebus cant fire? Or would that mean it can fire at a minus 1 if the model stood still?

GW Giveth and GW Taketh away


Logic and consistent wording have nothing to do with it

Im more concerned with the loss of the canticle

Too much of admech was centered around a boring castle and nerfing that is fine but hitting the more interesting alternative lists is a bad thing for diversity

 DarkHound wrote:
I understand that they're making the ruling. That's fine for me personally. I wasn't planning on using more than one. It does mean you can't take one in allied detachments, which is only a mild inconvenience.

It just annoys me that they added this rule in the worst possible way. It would be a problem if we didn't already know not to read into the text as written. It would actually be better if it just said "No."

I'm gonna be honest, there's probably a lot of moving parts in the background right now. I'm about 99.999% sure we'll be one of the early codices(along with Orks, Drukhari, Sisters, and Death Guard) and there will be something that makes it clear why you can only do this for one unit. I wouldn't be shocked if, for example, we can only take one Dominus per Detachment going forward. I also would not be shocked if this was done to also set a precedent for Crusade--which has a specific Requisition which allows you to do a similar thing for granting Warlord Traits.

However it is worth noting that this does put us a bit more in line with things like Specialist Detachments or the Guard Tank Ace rules.

Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?

For those discussing the Holy Ordo Q&A response, this person reviewed it in a very detailed manner: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/hz0fk2/pa_faq_for_admech_holy_orders_is_a_weird/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Hah, that is my thread too actually.

 Kanluwen wrote:
[I'm gonna be honest, there's probably a lot of moving parts in the background right now. I'm about 99.999% sure we'll be one of the early codices(along with Orks, Drukhari, Sisters, and Death Guard) and there will be something that makes it clear why you can only do this for one unit. I wouldn't be shocked if, for example, we can only take one Dominus per Detachment going forward. I also would not be shocked if this was done to also set a precedent for Crusade--which has a specific Requisition which allows you to do a similar thing for granting Warlord Traits.

However it is worth noting that this does put us a bit more in line with things like Specialist Detachments or the Guard Tank Ace rules.

I'm also getting the sense that we're up for a new codex soon. Still, I genuinely don't think the Holy Order traits are that powerful to require strict limits. They just seem nutty compared to our other ones because all our traits and relics suck hard.

Well every other army can do so.
We are also the only one to my knowledge that are restricted, again, to primary and its secondary forgeworld effects. And also only effecting models.

 r_squared wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?

There are two simultaneous abilities both add 1 to the invul save but one is capped at 4+ and one is not

the order you apply those abilities makes a difference

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the
start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this
happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start
or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides
in what order the rules are resolved

so i think if your opponent is shooting them they will make it a 4++ but its up to them

although in rare circumstances such as if you charge and your opponent overwatch's you can make it a 3++ (more relevant for CC build)

So what we have to pay a CP to use the Ordo traits on our warlord ? What's the point of this stratagem if only our Warlord can receive it ? I don't understand.

U02dah4 wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?

There are two simultaneous abilities both add 1 to the invul save but one is capped at 4+ and one is not

the order you apply those abilities makes a difference

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the
start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this
happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start

or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides
in what order the rules are resolved

so i think if your opponent is shooting them they will make it a 4++ but its up to them

although in rare circumstances such as if you charge and your opponent overwatch's you can make it a 3++ (more relevant for CC build)

The Lucius canticle increases the invulnerable save characteristic from the moment the canticle is canted. You only add 1 to the dice roll because of the aegis protocol later when making a save. As I understand it, there's no sequencing conflict?

The stratagem lets non WL models take base rulebook WL traits

These are all worth taking depending on your build
Monitor Malevolous
Prime Hermeticon
Necromechanic:
Chorister Technis:
Static Psalm (Mars)

 r_squared wrote:
The Lucius canticle increases the invulnerable save characteristic from the moment the canticle is canted. You only add 1 to the dice roll because of the aegis protocol later when making a save. As I understand it, there's no sequencing conflict?

I do not believe that rules are timestamped like this.

U02dah4 wrote:
The stratagem lets non WL models take base rulebook WL traits

These are all worth taking depending on your build
Monitor Malevolous
Prime Hermeticon
Necromechanic:
Chorister Technis:
Static Psalm (Mars)

Yeah re-reading both rules for the 50th time I finally understood, it's just that I didn't expect this to be their intent with the stratagem as it's so upside-down that it didn't look legit. Jeez GW and their wording.

Yeah it's nice mainly for Prime Hermeticon with some builds, but my main Trait used to be Monitor Malevolus before the nerf, now I'd go Necromechanic but the Ordos are just better generally so I'll stick with that.

 r_squared wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?

There are two simultaneous abilities both add 1 to the invul save but one is capped at 4+ and one is not

the order you apply those abilities makes a difference

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the
start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this
happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start

or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides
in what order the rules are resolved

so i think if your opponent is shooting them they will make it a 4++ but its up to them

although in rare circumstances such as if you charge and your opponent overwatch's you can make it a 3++ (more relevant for CC build)

The Lucius canticle increases the invulnerable save characteristic from the moment the canticle is canted. You only add 1 to the dice roll because of the aegis protocol later when making a save. As I understand it, there's no sequencing conflict?

The luicus cantical increases the moment the cantical is cantated the Aegis increases the moment the model is in aegis mode neither of these are relevant till you throw.

both of these normally happen a long time before shooting and at the point the player whose turn it is chooses the order until the turn changes then the other player chooses the order (yes some strats can change both instantly in that case order is chosen then). You can make this easier by waiting till you fire

lucius improve the invulnerable save of a model in affected units by 1 to a 4+ is no different to whilst this protocol is in effect you can add 1 to any armour and invul saving throws you make for the unit; its just GW doing inconsistent wording for the same thing

Oh? So... Monitor Malevolous on Daedalosus is a thing?

EDIT: Or wait. Can I pick an Enginseer as my WL and give it Magos WLT, then use Locum to give Cawl his WLT?

You can and you have to, yeah.

Daedalosus can't take Warlord traits from Mechanicus Locum though. It specifies <FORGE WORLD> <CHARACTER>, and he as no Forge World. He can take any base trait or a Holy Order if he's the Warlord though.

to monitor malevolos yes if you want daedolosos can take it


and yes you can make an enginseer your WL and give it the Order WLT of your choice

and then Cawl could use the strat to take static psalm code

 DarkHound wrote:
Hah, that is my thread too actually.

 Kanluwen wrote:
[I'm gonna be honest, there's probably a lot of moving parts in the background right now. I'm about 99.999% sure we'll be one of the early codices(along with Orks, Drukhari, Sisters, and Death Guard) and there will be something that makes it clear why you can only do this for one unit. I wouldn't be shocked if, for example, we can only take one Dominus per Detachment going forward. I also would not be shocked if this was done to also set a precedent for Crusade--which has a specific Requisition which allows you to do a similar thing for granting Warlord Traits.

However it is worth noting that this does put us a bit more in line with things like Specialist Detachments or the Guard Tank Ace rules.

I'm also getting the sense that we're up for a new codex soon. Still, I genuinely don't think the Holy Order traits are that powerful to require strict limits. They just seem nutty compared to our other ones because all our traits and relics suck hard.

I wildly disagree with you regarding the Holy Order traits.

They're one of the first Warlord Traits that the game has ever seen that grant a variable Aura. That alone is huuuuuuuge.

 Suzuteo wrote:

EDIT: Or wait. Can I pick an Enginseer as my WL and give it Magos WLT, then use Locum to give Cawl his WLT?

this is exactly what i will do.

How does your list look like @suzuteo?

atm i have a decent problem to write a list =/

U02dah4 wrote:

Spoiler:

 r_squared wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?

There are two simultaneous abilities both add 1 to the invul save but one is capped at 4+ and one is not

the order you apply those abilities makes a difference

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the
start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this
happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start

or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides
in what order the rules are resolved

so i think if your opponent is shooting them they will make it a 4++ but its up to them

although in rare circumstances such as if you charge and your opponent overwatch's you can make it a 3++ (more relevant for CC build)

The Lucius canticle increases the invulnerable save characteristic from the moment the canticle is canted. You only add 1 to the dice roll because of the aegis protocol later when making a save. As I understand it, there's no sequencing conflict?

The luicus cantical increases the moment the cantical is cantated the Aegis increases the moment the model is in aegis mode neither of these are relevant till you throw.

both of these normally happen a long time before shooting and at the point the player whose turn it is chooses the order until the turn changes then the other player chooses the order (yes some strats can change both instantly in that case order is chosen then). You can make this easier by waiting till you fire

lucius improve the invulnerable save of a model in affected units by 1 to a 4+ is no different to whilst this protocol is in effect you can add 1 to any armour and invul saving throws you make for the unit; its just GW doing inconsistent wording for the same thing

But they're not the same thing. The canticle increases the characteristic, and the protocol adds 1 to the number you roll. It's an important difference.
It happens elsewhere for example with Orks, Sparkly bits increases the BS characteristic by 1, and the freebootas klan culture adds +1 to the hit roll producing Morkanauts that hit on 3+

I don't understand why my opponent has a "choice" here? Is there a new rule about this in 9th?

Take it to YMDC

U02dah4 wrote:
Take it to YMDC

Shouldn't be any need to imo, but it is more relevant for that thread.

Its the same as the Bladeguard vet stormshield issue, one ability increased the save the other adds to the roll. There's no order of operations issue. Even if that's all you considered, increases to datasheet stats happen before dice modifiers. Done


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm getting increasingly frustrated that I want so many fast attack choices but the new detachment system is gonna make me pay for like 2 outsiders and I dont even get to have one of them refunded!

@Hesselhof
I am playing mechanized AdMech: