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John, would it really make you happier if they re-did Heavy Weapon teams such that they were "one model"... maybe the heavy bolter loader can sit there feeding or reloading the thing.

I think its a silly thing that GW did it, but I think it was a good idea to try and simplify an undeveloped and aberrant rule.

On a different note... I asked this before and was thinking on it; it seems to me that Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters will get backdoor benefits from the IG codex. They can take IG platoons as inducted troops, it seems that those units have been improved and made cheaper would help the Inquisition Codices.

I also want to start a discussion on units that won't have kits at codex release, I think it will be predominately speculation, so I'm starting it over in the general discussion forum.

lord_blackfang wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The difference being, Attack Bikes are indeed a single model.

In exactly the same way any two guys mounted on one base are a single model, yes.

Well, good thing my Mordian heavy weapons are on the same bas-wait, they're not.

Catachans? Nope. Tallarns? Nope. Valhallans? Nope. Praetorians? Nope. Hell, even the Steel Legion don't field MLs on a single base.

lord_blackfang wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The difference being, Attack Bikes are indeed a single model.

In exactly the same way any two guys mounted on one base are a single model, yes.

not quite, the attack bike literally *is* one model. the IG HW teams are *two* models mounted on the same base, and that's *only* the catachan and cadian ones (and Krieg/Elysian if you want to go that far) while the older lines are based seperately. currently that's not even technically legal, there's no rules as to how to handle that.

Just wait for April's GW product spotlight: 60mm bases and Citadel basing kits. Operators standing by now!!!

I just hate 60mm bases. They don't fit in our city terrain. I'd rather have one wound and still not have to rebase my entire Tallarn, Steel Legion and Cadian armies (Yeah, I started using 40mm bases for my heavies).

I'm going to wait for GW to start kicking IG players out of tournaments for having their troops mounted on smaller bases.

Vaktathi wrote:not quite, the attack bike literally *is* one model. the IG HW teams are *two* models mounted on the same base, and that's *only* the catachan and cadian ones (and Krieg/Elysian if you want to go that far) while the older lines are based seperately. currently that's not even technically legal, there's no rules as to how to handle that.

Steel Legion Lascannons and Heavy bolters are 2 on a 60mm(and they're pre-plastic Guard), as are all Vostroyan heavies. It's not "only" Cadian, Catachans, and FW heavies.

can't wait myself - may have to use one of these for a deathstrike (at only £24 not too bad!) -
http://www.netmerchants.co.uk/product.php/710/44/ss1c_scud_b_with_maz543_tel/soviet scud wagon
(ok someone tell me how to use the 'url' button please)

I get the feeling we will see alot of Scud - Deathstrike conversions.

strange_eric wrote:Wow HW squads being one model? That's purely stupid. On so many levels. I don't think one single person was confused about how the "2 models 1 base" thing worked, why change it? Ugh.

Actually, it used to be a constant point of confusion. It always seemed to confuse people on the old GW message boards.

I'd strongly recommend anyone who is bothered by the new policy to jsut get some magnets and big abses and make scenic bases with two rounds spots for the HW team members.

aka_mythos wrote:On a different note... I asked this before and was thinking on it; it seems to me that Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters will get backdoor benefits from the IG codex. They can take IG platoons as inducted troops, it seems that those units have been improved and made cheaper would help the Inquisition Codices.

Sure, although it's unknown what little warts there will be (Especially if any units have moved around the FOC) but most importantly it shouldn't be a big deal as the costs all come from Codex: IG. Where it is admittedly a problem is if Codex: UberMarines adds a +S to Shotguns and we have to deal with either two different 'Shotgun' profiles or patch a lot of costs across different books.

aka_mythos wrote:I get the feeling we will see alot of Scud - Deathstrike conversions.

Personally, I intend to use the Saturn V rocket. If I can find the right scale model, and smack some fins on it, it'll look very GrimDark, I think. And it'll be a near match for the epic version.

Balance wrote:

strange_eric wrote:Wow HW squads being one model? That's purely stupid. On so many levels. I don't think one single person was confused about how the "2 models 1 base" thing worked, why change it? Ugh.

Actually, it used to be a constant point of confusion. It always seemed to confuse people on the old GW message boards.

Hell, my group still doesn't get it. Every game (And I mean EVERY god damned game) I have to explain it, yet again.

"You have to remove whole models, you can't allocate wounds across multi-wound models!"
Grrraaahh. This is not a difficult concept.

But to be honest I'm still not sure how to handle blast weapons. GW says imagine a 25mm under the model, but that gets real iffy when you're trying to decide if this small template gets both or just one. Or is it ALWAYS supposed to get both, even if it touches just the barest tip of the base? (The latter, of course, being how ALL my opponents interpret the rule. )

aka_mythos wrote:John, would it really make you happier if they re-did Heavy Weapon teams such that they were "one model"...

it seems to me that Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters will get backdoor benefits from the IG codex.

They can take IG platoons as inducted troops

No, it would make me happier if GW re-clarified that Heavy Weapons are 2 Guardsmen that should stay in coherency. At this point, I really hate the Armageddon Steel Legion, because they're the ones who introduced these stupid multi-model bases. Plus, GW did shortcoat guard instead of the Greatcoat Guard that everybody really wants.
____

aka_mythos wrote:I'm going to wait for GW to start kicking IG players out of tournaments for having their troops mounted on smaller bases.

I dunno - have they kicked any SM players for fielding the OOP TH&SS models on 25mm bases?
___

bubber wrote:can't wait myself - may have to use one of these for a deathstrike (at only £24 not too bad!)

$35 for a SCUD launcher? Not bad at all, but I prefer the idea of using a V-2.

OK, in a desperate attempt to drag this thread back on track(ish) I've gone through the sheet, translating where possible and have come up with the following:
This is all pure speculation on my part but trying to rationalise what's on the list into a plausible FOC.


IG now have 10 special characters (assuming Creed and Kell still come as a pair).

Capt Al'Rahem
Colonel Straken
Commander Chenkov
Commisar Yarrick
Lukas Bastonne
Moghol Kamir (possible RR sgt upgrade)
Nork Deddog (possible Ogryn upgrade)
Artillery Sergeant Harker (possible vehicle upgrade a la Chronus)
Sly Marbo (possible vet sgt upgrade)
Ursarkar Creed/Jarran Kell


Combining the unit entries and the 22 vehicle variants seems to give the following:

HQ's -
Company Commander or Commissar Lord, possibly with 'Garde du Corps?*' as the troops in their cmd squads.
Advisors - Astropath, Forward Artillery Observer, Fleet Liaison Officer, Sanctioned Psyker, 'Mentor?*'
Unit upgrades - Commissar, Priest
Independant Characters - Primaris Psyker, Enginseer with Servitors (maybe goes in Elites section?)

* no idea what these are!!

Troops -
Platoon Captains, again with 'Garde du Corps?'
Guardsmen (with sgts and HW teams)
Penal Legion Troops (with some kind of sgt/Arbite? (we hope ) to lead them)
Conscripts
Chimera Transports

Elites -
Stormtroopers (with sgts), possible Valkyrie transports
Veterans (with sgts and HW teams) - could be a troop upgrade instead
Ratlings
Ogryns (with BONE'eads)

Fast Attack -
Rough Riders (with sgts)
2x Sentinel variants (may end up as platoon upgrades)
Valkyrie/Vendetta
3x Hellhound variants (may end up as platoon upgrades)

Heavy Support -
7x LR variants
Hydra
6x Artillery variants


Other than not knowing what a mentor (possible comms officer upgrade given his high Ld but otherwise poor stats?) or a garde du corps are and allowing for possible shenanigans with regards to things like HW platoons going into the heavy support section or things being taken as platoon upgrades instead of in a seperate FOC slot, what do people think of this as a first pass at the new guard book??

Hrm. A thought occurs to me. The new Command Squad strikes me as very similar to an Inquisition retinue.

Just by the name alone, Mentor seems very similar to Sage. So with a little leap of logic I imagine this character to provide a similar function, maybe a ballistic skill increase?

Or! Maybe the Mentor is supposed to be just that, the commanding officers Mentor. Maybe a retired general, or a grizzled old drill sergeant that's seen it all. The first thing that springs to mind is this feller will directly effect the Orders system. Since we've basically seen that none of the other 'advisors' effect it.

And honestly, what the hell kind of 'advisor' has no input on Battle Orders?!

Excuse me for thinking out loud. Just speculatin' here.

@Calvin: Gard du Corps is Bodyguard.

Overall, I have high hopes for this Codex. I think Guard are going to be Ork-competitive, and that says a lot. GW added a lot of mobility and transport to the list, and I'm glad to see them do it.

Characters
I'm really glad to see Nork return, along with the other Captains / Colonels, but it's too bad Stuard Muckstump isn't included.

I'm a little scared that al-Rhaem is going to be the only way to get Light Infantry, or that Marbo is going to be required for Jungle Fighters.

HQ
I'm OK with the HQ only being Senior Officer, possibly with a "Heroic" option. I'm very curious to see the various powers and abilities.

Troops
In general, I don't have any issues here, although I'm not sure how the Penal Legion and Conscripts are going to shake out. How will GW differentiate them?

Without points and equipment, it's hard to say what's going to work. I definitely hope we don't have same old "unlocking" business. And I sure hope we have Grenadiers.

Elite
If Veterans are linked to Platoons, that actually would be a good, sensible thing. Though I suspect extreme nerfage will be the order of the day.

I'm very glad to see S5 T5 Ogryns return, and hope we have a close-combat option. Depending on the rules, I could use a couple units of them.

R18" RF S3 AP3 Hellguns don't interest me much, but they are somewhat better than AP5, despite the range reduction. I think Storms are still going to be taken for Melta and Plasma. If GW screwed up the Plasma, it's going to continue as =I= Storms until those books get redone.

Fast
This section finally has some serious competition with Hellhound variants, Valkyeries and new Sentinels. Costs and options are going to be a huge thing. And the expanded AP2 access is awesome.

Heavy
This was always good, but 14 variants is probably overkill. I hope to see some good variety and options come out of this. It's really sad that they didn't upgrade the Medusa to Barrage. That would have been awesome.

Cool, thanks for that, John.

I'd say Garde du Corps stats are quite likely to be command squad stats then - at least for HQ's.

I really like the mentor idea, Alex, as an advisor who affects the orders system.

I understand what you mean about the overkill on the HS section, but it basically boils down to 5 options:
Leman Russ (with variant weapons)
Hydra
HW platoons (if they make the cut)
Missile Artillery (manticore/deathstrike)
Standard Artillery (with variant weapons)

I just wish my wallet was looking forward to this as much as I am!!

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
Sly Marbo (possible vet sgt upgrade)

In all the fluff so far, Marbo works alone - in fact, the original special character could not be attached to a squad. I don't see them suddenly making him a Vet Sgt Upgrade and force him to go along with a unit.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm a little scared that al-Rhaem is going to be the only way to get Light Infantry, or that Marbo is going to be required for Jungle Fighters.

I think it's a pretty good bet that since we don't see Gaunt on this list that Al'Rahem will be the only way to get Light Infantry. And as above, I don't see Marbo being required for Jungle Fighters - Straken would be such a character. Although with the "Jungle Fighter" doctrine as crappy as it was under 3E and with as many of its rules as were made useless by 5E (LOS, anyone?) I don't see those rules making a comeback. I'm hoping that Straken will allow players to take extra Vet Squads. In his old Catachan rules, if you took him, you could essentially have Hardened Vets (well, Catachan Devils - 13-point HVets, I might add - sheesh!) as your troops. I think taking him for more HVet Squads would be pretty reasonable.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm a little scared that al-Rhaem is going to be the only way to get Light Infantry, or that Marbo is going to be required for Jungle Fighters.

I think it's a pretty good bet that since we don't see Gaunt on this list that Al'Rahem will be the only way to get Light Infantry.

At least from a counts-as perspective Al'Rahem has the potential to be more neutral than Gaunt. I mean, he's just a Company Commander with a plasma pistol and power weapon, instead of a Colonel-Commissar with a camo cloak and a custom sword.

Looks like we've found That One Rule that people are going to arguing about for years after the codex comes out. If that's the only one this codex will be in remarkably good form.

These rumors are actually making me consider getting some vehicles.

Agamemnon2 wrote:At least from a counts-as perspective Al'Rahem has the potential to be more neutral than Gaunt. I mean, he's just a Company Commander with a plasma pistol and power weapon, instead of a Colonel-Commissar with a camo cloak and a custom sword.

Good point. There's a whole lot less baggage attached to him than there is to Gaunt's 12 books and a short story.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I'm going to wait for GW to start kicking IG players out of tournaments for having their troops mounted on smaller bases.

I dunno - have they kicked any SM players for fielding the OOP TH&SS models on 25mm bases?

I was actually thinking of the general sort of rule that says you should use the base the model comes with. The majority of IG players are going to eventually be using the new cadians and chances are those larger bases are what they'll be provided with.

1hadhq wrote:

BrookM wrote:So from now on our squads will be either ten or nine strong..?

Or the infantry squad loses the HWT-option and all HWT are gathered in HWT-squads.

Scottywan82 wrote:That would ALSO suck.

You know, suck doesn't even begin to describe it. No longer having the ability to hide a HW gunner in a 9 wound meat shield would discourage me greatly. I'm sure I'm not alone here.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I'd say Garde du Corps stats are quite likely to be command squad stats then - at least for HQ's.

I understand what you mean about the overkill on the HS section, but it basically boils down to 5 options:

According to the sheet, Bodyguard is WS4 BS4 A2, whereas Storms & Vets are WS3 BS4 A1, and Guardsmen are only WS3 BS3. I agree that Bodyguard are Command Squad, although I expected Veterans.

Yup, 5 chassis: Russ (14/13/10), Demolisher (14/13/11), Hellhound (12/12/10), Chimera (12/10/10), & Basilisk (12/10/10 OT). Major point of suckage: Chimera is still listed as 12/10/10, so while less overpriced, it's sitll not good.

Getting back to HS, most of these options are largely defined by the guns that they carry, and a lot of them are kind of so-so. For example, it's interesting that the Basilisk lost the direct-fire option and is now only an IF Barrage gun...
____

Death By Monkeys wrote:I think it's a pretty good bet that since we don't see Gaunt on this list that Al'Rahem will be the only way to get Light Infantry. And as above, I don't see Marbo being required for Jungle Fighters - Straken would be such a character. Although with the "Jungle Fighter" doctrine as crappy as it was under 3E and with as many of its rules as were made useless by 5E (LOS, anyone?) I don't see those rules making a comeback. I'm hoping that Straken will allow players to take extra Vet Squads.

OK, though I'd also expect any "Doctrines" to be cleaned up for 5E.
____

aka_mythos wrote:I was actually thinking of the general sort of rule that says you should use the base the model comes with.

The majority of IG players are going to eventually be using the new cadians and chances are those larger bases are what they'll be provided with.

You mean like in 4E? Yeah, that'd be OK.

Do they still provide sufficient 25mm bases to allow for all single-basing? Hmm...

JohnHwangDD wrote:For example, it's interesting that the Basilisk lost the direct-fire option and is now only an IF Barrage gun...

As mentioned up above, remember that 5e specifically allows Barrage weapons to direct-fire, ignoring any minimum ranges.

lord_blackfang wrote:In exactly the same way any two guys mounted on one base are a single model, yes.

I have over 70 Heavy Weapon teams in my army. Over half of them are metal Tallarns, Mordians and Cadians. Virtually none of them are on bases and in the case of the Lascannons the Lascannons are completely separate from any crew, crew who are on their own regular bases. None of them are 2 models on a single base.

HW teams are not analogous to an Attack Bikes.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:
According to the sheet, Bodyguard is WS4 BS4 A2, whereas Storms & Vets are WS3 BS4 A1, and Guardsmen are only WS3 BS3. I agree that Bodyguard are Command Squad, although I expected Veterans.

I was hoping for the option of taking an Ogryn for a bodyguard. I guess it's still possible with Nork.

The only heavy weapons I have on a big base are my lascannons and even then the second dude is on his own base so I can remove it rather than put a dice down to remember one of them is dead. Everything else I have is on seperate small bases for the simple reason that I'd like to actually be able to take advantage of cover. Ever try fitting a big base into ruins or small terrain features? It's impossible and looks slowed.

Anyone want to take a bet with me as to Moghul Kamir's special rules? I'm betting that he's the IG's Captain on a Bike - i.e. you take him and you can have Rough Riders as troops.

Kamir is Atillan. It wouldn't make much sense to put him on a bike.

BYE