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We are going to have one of the best objective holding units in the game. Hell, put the objective in cover and give the whole unit the +2 cover save, try shooting up 50 guardsmen with 2+ cover saves

50 guardsmen with a commissar. Spread out around an objective, there is no way a charging enemy could get within 3" of the objective without killing a LOT of guardsmen.

As for taking objectives, that involves blowing away any units on the aforementioned objective with overwhelming firepower. After that, fly a squad of infantry onto the objective with a Valk (or drive with a chimera).

But I imagine that objectives games will go a lot like they do now, IG holds on to their objectives with huge masses of meat, and contests enemy objectives with vehicles and various units.

It's funny, for a couple of days I pretty much agreed with H.B.M.C., when the armylist looked to be shaping up completely worthless. Now I find I'm not nearly as cynical anymore, but he's still stuck in that mindset.

I'm not stuck in any damned mindset. If a unit is gak I'll call it gak. If it a unit is not, I'll say it's not. I don't know enough to say anything now other than comment on the rumours, which is all I will continue to do until such time as I see the Codex.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Out of all the rumors you have heard about so far, what do you think an optimal build for guard would be @1500pts??

Troops and tanks. Elite units seem to be completely hosed, and Fast Attack isn't worth a damn now that the Nerfhound has arrived, so troops and tanks. Heavy emphasis on the Holy Trinity again (HBs, ACs, LCs), especially given the price reductions. Merging of squads with similar guns, sparing use of ultra-flimsy KP-giving HW units (even if they are scoring), limited use of HQ (just enough to get the Orders flowing). If you don't want a pure Guard army then allied Sisters with Books to keep everyone in line.

Beyond that, until I see points values, I won't know.

Of course, the difference between us is that unlike you, I'm a true pessimist. You appear to have been expecting a better or at least competitive Codex and are disappointed by the crap we're getting.

Whereas I expected crap from the word go and am at least somewhat elated at finding that not everything is completely horrible. I'm easier to satisfy because I have no expectations, or illusions that my abysmal track record will improve any time soon (6.5% of total games won). On a fundamental level, I don't care nearly as much.

bs.

We all care. We all want the best and hold out hope that things will improve, some of us more than others perhaps, but we all do. Maybe that makes some of us more delusional, but don't tout your 'true pessimist' nonsense like its some fething badge of honour.

Thanks H.B.M.C!

I appreciate the reply and your feedback.

H.B.M.C. wrote:bs.

We all care. We all want the best and hold out hope that things will improve, some of us more than others perhaps, but we all do. Maybe that makes some of us more delusional, but don't tout your 'true pessimist' nonsense like its some fething badge of honour.

If you're the hallmark of sanity, I will gladly embrace my delusion.

It is pretty clear that with this codex you will see mostly 4 units, and little variety.

You will see command squads, merged infantry squads, vendetta squadrons, and leman russ squadrons (mostly the basic variety). Those units are completely superior to anything else in the codex.

Fortunately for me, that is exactly what I wanted to play with, so i am glad they made those units the best. I just feel sorry for people who deluded themselves into thinking that Imperial Guard would have a lot of variety (elite army, close combat army, etc...), because there really is one way to play them that is superior to all other variants.

Rough Riders are actually pretty good though. If you have a good concept for modeling them let me know. It is probably better to just take more infantry squads, but rough riders are good enough to play with and not feel like your handicapping yourself.

volair wrote:It is pretty clear that with this codex you will see mostly 4 units, and little variety.

You will see command squads, merged infantry squads, vendetta squadrons, and leman russ squadrons (mostly the basic variety). Those units are completely superior to anything else in the codex.

Fortunately for me, that is exactly what I wanted to play with, so i am glad they made those units the best. I just feel sorry for people who deluded themselves into thinking that Imperial Guard would have a lot of variety (elite army, close combat army, etc...), because there really is one way to play them that is superior to all other variants.

QFT

Also would everyone please stop reading, and replying to focused fires posts. We have already concluded that he plays tau and eldar, not guard, and for some reason enjoys spouting garbage. DONT FEED THE TROLL.

I assume when people are talking about the must-have-ability of Leman Russ squadrons, that they're talking about games of 1750+. In anything smaller, taking 4+ tanks just seems like a tremendous point sink (except a Griffon/Hydra battery, I suspect).

Putting over 600 points into 4 Leman Russes is doable in 1,000 points, but that leaves precious little points for boosting up those infantry swarms, doubly so if you want to run massed tanks and 2 or more Vendettas.

foil7102 wrote:Also would everyone please stop reading, and replying to focused fires posts. We have already concluded that he plays tau and eldar, not guard, and for some reason enjoys spouting garbage. DONT FEED THE TROLL.

I might be inclined to agree with you in this specific case, but censoring him sets a poor precedent for upcoming conversations. I'm not sure if I want this forum to become the place where only Marine players can talk about the power level of Sternguard and only Tau players can complain about Vespids. Having to deal with posters whose ideas we cannot stomach is the price, I feel, of having a free and permissive forum in the first place.

I playtested an army with 3 command squads, 4 squads of 20 guardsmen, 2 squadrons of 2 leman russes, and 2 squadrons of 2 vendettas. So a total of 95 infantry and 8 vehicles. The first game was against a genestealer army. He surprised me with outflanking and his genestealers had the strength upgrade, so any vehicle squadrons or infantry squads he charged were cleaned up immediately. It was a draw because I killed so much of his stuff in the first two turns that even when he got to me he couldn't kill everything. The second game was against Tau and I horribly crushed him; it wasn't even close. My Vendettas wrecked his hammerheads and HQ with ease and my battlecannons and lasguns cleaned up all of his infantry and crisis suits. He didn't kill a single unit of mine. I feel that with better deployment and tactics I could have beaten the genestealer army, but I am used to playing eldar and dark eldar so I just have to get used to Imperial Guard. I won't jump to conclusions but it seems that Imperial Guard may be the anti-Tau. If he had 9 broadsides he might have had a chance.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I assume when people are talking about the must-have-ability of Leman Russ squadrons, that they're talking about games of 1750+. In anything smaller, taking 4+ tanks just seems like a tremendous point sink (except a Griffon/Hydra battery, I suspect).

Putting over 600 points into 4 Leman Russes is doable in 1,000 points, but that leaves precious little points for boosting up those infantry swarms, doubly so if you want to run massed tanks and 2 or more Vendettas.

foil7102 wrote:Also would everyone please stop reading, and replying to focused fires posts. We have already concluded that he plays tau and eldar, not guard, and for some reason enjoys spouting garbage. DONT FEED THE TROLL.

I might be inclined to agree with you in this specific case, but censoring him sets a poor precedent for upcoming conversations. I'm not sure if I want this forum to become the place where only Marine players can talk about the power level of Sternguard and only Tau players can complain about Vespids. Having to deal with posters whose ideas we cannot stomach is the price, I feel, of having a free and permissive forum in the first place.

I agree, I am more concerned about the spouting garbage, as opposed to the fact that he does not play IG. I just included that fact so that the average reader would have something to judge the validity of his posts against.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not stuck in any damned mindset. If a unit is gak I'll call it gak. If it a unit is not, I'll say it's not. I don't know enough to say anything now other than comment on the rumours, which is all I will continue to do until such time as I see the Codex.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Out of all the rumors you have heard about so far, what do you think an optimal build for guard would be @1500pts??

Troops and tanks. Elite units seem to be completely hosed, and Fast Attack isn't worth a damn now that the Nerfhound has arrived, so troops and tanks. Heavy emphasis on the Holy Trinity again (HBs, ACs, LCs), especially given the price reductions. Merging of squads with similar guns, sparing use of ultra-flimsy KP-giving HW units (even if they are scoring), limited use of HQ (just enough to get the Orders flowing). If you don't want a pure Guard army then allied Sisters with Books to keep everyone in line.

Beyond that, until I see points values, I won't know.

i'd agree. i've already pruned my carrying case of my ogryns, ratlings, and rough riders. after bringing them but mostly not using them for several years, i think this would continue to be the case. using the points listed on warseer and the current codex when needed, i've got 101 figs (command hq, 2 platoons of 3 squads, 2 assault squads, two heavy squads), 2 sentinels, and 2 leman russ tanks in 1500pts. If i go up to 2000pts i can add my two stormtrooper squads, a basilisk, and a piece of wargear or two for the characters. all in all, a very generic plain human statline/figure list.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

foil7102 wrote:Also would everyone please stop reading, and replying to focused fires posts. We have already concluded that he plays tau and eldar, not guard, and for some reason enjoys spouting garbage. DONT FEED THE TROLL.

I might be inclined to agree with you in this specific case, but censoring him sets a poor precedent for upcoming conversations. I'm not sure if I want this forum to become the place where only Marine players can talk about the power level of Sternguard and only Tau players can complain about Vespids. Having to deal with posters whose ideas we cannot stomach is the price, I feel, of having a free and permissive forum in the first place.

Puts on free speech hat....

Ok, Censorship is an act by some authority, not be people choosing what to read and respond to. It is literally an act of THE MAN, not any of us peons.

The key isnt' to only allow certain classes of people to discuss things, but to only take seriously and respond to those comments that show some insight, experience, knowledge, etc.

There is nothing wrong with saying about any given post, thread, or even poster, "this person clearly doesn't know what they are talking about" and moving on.

So, reading these threads, my feelings on the IG codex have vacillated wildly. Based on the current rumors, and my understanding of them, my current feelings are pretty simple: mild enthusiasm.

The rumors that are being projected show a book that is designed to play at about 3000pts (but without apocolypse rules), and while there were two decent fixes to KPs (non-IC officers and lumped squads), the army will still tend to be KP heavy compared to nearly any other force. The current book has a mandatory and useful HQ, strong troops that have trouble taking and holding objectives, great heavies, one decent elites choice, and some ok fast. The new books looks to have... mandatory HQ, great troops, great heavies, one decent fast, and garbage for elites. It's a reshuffle job.

My main problem isn't the power level, or the insane pricing on the elites, it's the feeling I get that they spent a long weekend mining the Proposed Rules forums, wrote a few wacky rules, ran it all through the 5th edition standardization machine, and called it a day. None of the changes, barring the new Orders, were of any real surprise to us, in fact, the new platoons are startlingly similar to the platoons in the big black book in 3rd edition.

The IG have always had more deceptive variety than most armies, both codices have featured tons of options that simply never were worth taking. GW has gotten far better at that, releasing generally only one or two "bad" units per codex. If the rumors are true, IG will continue to hold that title.

So, I'm excited because as a men, guns, and tanks style player, I'm being catered to. My stormtroopers will sit on a shelf, and many players fringe armies will simply disappear, but I am glad that the solid core of the army is improving.

I can't wait to see the book, and do a proper review. I know I sound pretty negative now, but IMO the good bits GW has added are no brainers (chimeras should go down in price, right?), while some of the gak units should have been easy as pie to fix (who wouldn't like 8pt stormtroopers? Or Ogryn with rending? ).

Polonius: I 'ppreciate the semantical corrections.

warboss wrote:i'd agree. i've already pruned my carrying case of my ogryns, ratlings, and rough riders. after bringing them but mostly not using them for several years, i think this would continue to be the case. using the points listed on warseer and the current codex when needed, i've got 101 figs (command hq, 2 platoons of 3 squads, 2 assault squads, two heavy squads), 2 sentinels, and 2 leman russ tanks in 1500pts. If i go up to 2000pts i can add my two stormtrooper squads, a basilisk, and a piece of wargear or two for the characters. all in all, a very generic plain human statline/figure list.

I expect I'm going to see that kind of armies quite a lot, since the Guard is fairly popular around my playing community. I don't think facing cookie cutter armies is all that fun in the long run, I'm sure some would agree with me on this one.

It's doubly annoying because, the difference between a playable and unplayable unit in any given armylist is so small sometimes. For Ogryns, for example, it's about the difference between 30 and 40 points apiece. It's truely a pity, and a pity 'tis 'tis true.

I think that might be the big proble: the idea that IG should be boring, or bland. You see it all over the place in the codex. Sure, basic platoons are probably pretty vanilla, but why are vets solely +1bs? Why not give them +1 WS & I, allow a medic for FnP, allow shotguns and LP/CCW, make 'em stubborn, price them around 9pts a peice, and make them genuine brawlers? then you can make stormtroopers a more pure BS4 special weapon platform. Heck you could add combat tactics to the stormtroopers to better differentiate the highly trained strike force and the grizzled die hards. that would make two units interesting!

Well, I think they've at least tried. STs in the new book will be getting those special "mission options", which would have made them a fun unit if not for the fact that they also got a hideously expensive new anti-Marine weapon at the same time.

Background-wise, when you have a large army that consists of thousands of identically armed troopers, being bland is pretty much expected.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, I think they've at least tried. STs in the new book will be getting those special "mission options", which would have made them a fun unit if not for the fact that they also got a hideously expensive new anti-Marine weapon at the same time.

Background-wise, when you have a large army that consists of thousands of identically armed troopers, being bland is pretty much expected.

and that's just the mentality that I think GW uses. Compare IG to ASpect warriors. Both have a standard stat line, but there is insane variety in the craftworlds and almost non for the IG. There are ways to make units useful that don't involve making them space marines, and they could have done that.

In a battle hardened company, specialists will emerge, guys that have a knack for certain things. Yes, in the fluff most IG are monolithic, but in the game there's no reason not to make SWS, stormtroopers, and veterans all distinct.

my only REAL question, and i cant seem to find an answer of any kind is;

will HW still be allowed in the basic guard squads???

Okay, so I just thought up a couple of kind of fun combinations.

Creed's "For Cadia!" order to a squad of Rough Riders. On the charge, they'll be Str 6 I 6 because of Furious Charge. Yes, that's right. And if they're still power weapons...ah...that's heavenly. Even if they're not, that's still really good.

Tank commander dude in a Demolisher with Plasma Cannon sponsons. Goodbye Nob Bikers, and well, pretty much anything.

Tank Commander Dude in an Executioner with Plasma Cannon sponsons. Sure the combo is like 300 points, but 5 Plasma cannon shots that all ignore cover (and are BS4 to boot) is awesome. I'll try this out in a game sometime and see what happens.

Dammit, I'm going to have to use special characters. Eh, I'll just do counts-as I think.

did we get general grizmund in the new codex?
he was ALWAYS one of my faves

I suspect we're going to see a lot more of Creed and Kell. With the former giving 4 orders per turn, and the latter making those order checks easier to pass, they're a potential option for anyone who wants to try to make use of the orders system.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Tank Commander Dude in an Executioner with Plasma Cannon sponsons. Sure the combo is like 300 points, but 5 Plasma cannon shots that all ignore cover (and are BS4 to boot) is awesome. I'll try this out in a game sometime and see what happens.

Where is the Ignore Cover part coming from?

He Who Stood wrote:did we get general grizmund in the new codex?
he was ALWAYS one of my faves

Nah, he's called Sergeant Pask or something. There were also rumors of a Leman Russ "squadron leader" upgrade that wasn't necessarily a special character. These may be one and the same, though. I haven't heard confirmation on the generic "squadron leader."

Quick question though, wouldn't LRBTs be weakened by the squadron rules? I mean you shake one and then the rest can't move without leaving it behind, thus destroying the shaken LRBT. So you can stun or shake one LRBT out of a squadron of 3 and then move out of range. If the tanks want to get you, then they must ditch the shaken guy.

No, the rules for squadrens take care of this. Squadrens turn stunned results into shaken result. The downside of this is that immobilised goes to destroyed.

Thank god, I haven't had the rules in front of me in 2 months so thanks.

I'm hoping that there will be something like doctrines or wargear in terms of saves. Like the carapace armor, cameleoline, or even the skills and drills. The automatic +1 I and +1 Ld in CC for Close order drill was awesome.

Some people may be losing their army organization though if they can't deepstrike.

Can the normal troops use chimeras now?

halonachos wrote:Can the normal troops use chimeras now?

Yes, the regular platoon squads get Chimeras as an option. And a good thing, too, there's no Armoured Fist entry(at least not that we've heard, Troops seem to be Platoons, Penal squads, and vets).