Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Troops and tanks. Elite units seem to be completely hosed, and Fast Attack isn't worth a damn now that the Nerfhound has arrived,

How can you say your fast attack is bad when you have the vendetta now? HOW?. Really, you are being a bit pessimistic with that one. You have the single best anti armor flying transport scout tank in the game. Your army now has flying predator anihalators with scout that can hold 12 guardsman each. For 30% less points.

Oh, and they can come in squadrons when you want.

agree, I am more concerned about the spouting garbage, as opposed to the fact that he does not play IG. I just included that fact so that the average reader would have something to judge the validity of his posts against.

In fairness to him, though you'll probably just view this as another non ig players invalid opinion a lot of the sentiments here have been a bit wishlisty. A few posters have tried defending the vendettas pricing, have stated that the plasmatank was overexpensive at 210 (when it was 210), and have essentially cried about how awful sentinals are since they only dropped a few points and not all of them.

He's trying to be the optimist in a thread of doomsayers and polonius/agamemnon.

Hey, personally I think the vendetta is a steal provided it stays fast attack and is not a heavy support. Russ squadrons will be hard for most armies to deal with since lumbering will basically double the firepower of an ig tank when it stays still (and why would you move it?) The new orders sound fun and fluffy, and heck even a little effective. I am saying that there are good portions to this book, but there are also some steaming piles as well. Anyone who thinks otherwise... well

I really don't see anything bad in this. I mean sure ST are now 6 pts more expensive, but they're AP3. The banewolf is perhaps one of the most compelling reasons for fast attack. An AP 3 template weapon that wounds on a 2+!! I may take 3 fast choices of these guys alone.

You're saying that an upgrade to a S3 gun to AP3 is worth 6 points?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Troops and tanks. Elite units seem to be completely hosed, and Fast Attack isn't worth a damn now that the Nerfhound has arrived,

How can you say your fast attack is bad when you have the vendetta now? HOW?. Really, you are being a bit pessimistic with that one. You have the single best anti armor flying transport scout tank in the game. Your army now has flying predator anihalators with scout that can hold 12 guardsman each. For 30% less points.

Oh, and they can come in squadrons when you want.

agree, I am more concerned about the spouting garbage, as opposed to the fact that he does not play IG. I just included that fact so that the average reader would have something to judge the validity of his posts against.

In fairness to him, though you'll probably just view this as another non ig players invalid opinion a lot of the sentiments here have been a bit wishlisty. A few posters have tried defending the vendettas pricing, have stated that the plasmatank was overexpensive at 210 (when it was 210), and have essentially cried about how awful sentinals are since they only dropped a few points and not all of them.

He's trying to be the optimist in a thread of doomsayers and polonius/agamemnon.

I wouldn't say it a thread full of doomsayers, but I have to agree that this seems a bit harsh. Especally since focussed fire was the cictim rather then the offender here IMHO...

Besides I'd like to point out some good stuff in the codex as well. For those wondering: Yes I play IG, yes I play tourneys, and yes I still feel OK with th e new codex .

- Vendetta and valks. Enough said
- RR squadrons remain the same, and are still pretty good.
- The Nerfhound's role seems to have changed, bit with either melta or flame turets he seems quite nice. Considering the main vulnerability to vehicles are melta weapons and cc, moving 12" and still being able to fire your main weapon opens up some interesting options. Imagine, if you will, the ork horde approaching, lootas on a hill, 80 orks hell bent on kicking some IG a$$... The, imagine twho hellhound, moving forward 12", turning 90°, then hosing the orks with flame. Lots of dead orks, an av12 wall that can only be hit on a 6 in cc, and lootas can only glance it. Now imagine the face of the ork player . If you're moving 12", being close to the enemy may be safer since you'll get cover saves from his troops, he won't be as eage to use ordnance, and you're able to tank shock if necessary.
- Vets still seem pretty decent. Of course we don't have 5 dropping H-vetswith melta anymore; they were too good for what they did
- Both penal legion and psychic choir sound interesting
- 30 point walking basilisk with 5+ ablative wounds and FNP
- Squadronning of vehicles
- Lots of new vehicles.
- very good troops choices
- Kill points have been adressed. Not in they way everyone wanetd, but face it: IG bled KPs because of the grunts and the IC that really weren't; both have been fixed.


This codex will take away some of the must-haves of the old ones, but I feel there's a lot of potential that we're just not seeing because we don't get the full picture. I jus t think it's a shame people are only focussing on the things that seem less then perfect or don't live up to their expectations.

Disclaimer: I don"t work for GW

CommissarKhaine wrote:- Vendetta and valks. Enough said
- RR squadrons remain the same, and are still pretty good.
- The Nerfhound's role seems to have changed, bit with either melta or flame turets he seems quite nice. Considering the main vulnerability to vehicles are melta weapons and cc, moving 12" and still being able to fire your main weapon opens up some interesting options. Imagine, if you will, the ork horde approaching, lootas on a hill, 80 orks hell bent on kicking some IG a$$... The, imagine twho hellhound, moving forward 12", turning 90°, then hosing the orks with flame. Lots of dead orks, an av12 wall that can only be hit on a 6 in cc, and lootas can only glance it. Now imagine the face of the ork player . If you're moving 12", being close to the enemy may be safer since you'll get cover saves from his troops, he won't be as eage to use ordnance, and you're able to tank shock if necessary.
- Vets still seem pretty decent. Of course we don't have 5 dropping H-vetswith melta anymore; they were too good for what they did
- Both penal legion and psychic choir sound interesting
- 30 point walking basilisk with 5+ ablative wounds and FNP
- Squadronning of vehicles
- Lots of new vehicles.
- very good troops choices
- Kill points have been adressed. Not in they way everyone wanetd, but face it: IG bled KPs because of the grunts and the IC that really weren't; both have been fixed.

Lootas have S7 guns; they eat AV 12 for breakfast.

stonefox wrote:You're saying that an upgrade to a S3 gun to AP3 is worth 6 points?

Actually yes I am. I don't care what you say, but ST can now kill SM without taking plasma guns.

Str 3 ap3, better armor, missions, orders, and more attacks is probably worth 6 points. They got a lot more than just the guns.

when it comes to any gun, all that matters to me is how many ap3 shots they can do. I will be more than happy to use stormtroopers just because of the ap. So what if they only wound on 5's? Every 5 & 6 = dead marines.

I'm going to want to see the prices for the nerfhounds before I commit too thorougly, but I'm not convinced they're awful. To be fair, I'm not enamored with the current version, and I actually played them in the old 3rd edition rules.

They seem to fill a more set role in the new codex: fast moving vehicle. the problem with the Hound has always been that while it could move, had decent fire power, was sort of durable, and not horribly expensive, it didn't actually do anythign that well. The newer hounds seem to emphasize speed, with even more limited fire power than before. However, they are more capable at the one thing IG suffer at: clearing enemies from objectives on cover.

As for the vendetta/valkerie, I'm not sold on them until I see the total points. They look good, but I"m waiting for a tidbit like "may add two lascannons for +75pts" or something. If they show up for a good price, they'll be a great addition.

the only two units that seem really useless right now are Stormtroopers and Ogryn. They're almost useless now, so it's not a huge loss, but watching GW take yet another swing and still fail to connect is just sad IMO. They look to be joining Swooping Hawks, Mega Armored Nobz, and Tyranid Warriors in the "We just can't figure out how to make these guys good" shelf.

Am I the only person whose still worried about IG in Kill Points missions? IG will cough up fewer points, to be sure, but it'll still be high. I'm not sure what else could be done, and I think more and more tournaments are moving away from KP as the primary mission objective.

ShumaGorath wrote:Str 3 ap3, better armor, missions, orders, and more attacks is probably worth 6 points. They got a lot more than just the guns.

Better armor than what? Old stormtroopers or the rumored veterans?

The problem with any comparison to the old STs is that they were pretty much universally held to be ~2pts overcosted.

I think it's going to come down to what exactly they can do in terms of orders, and what the missions actually turn out to be. As it stands, AP3 isn't worth much on a short ranged, S3 gun on a fragile platfom, HP/CCW isn't worth much (it would be worth something if combined with WS4, representing a unit that can almost stand up in combat).

It's not a lost cause, after all Harlies are worth a lot and are almost as fragile, but they are very, very good at their job (HtH shock unit), and Stormtroopers are not gonig to be amazingly good at their job (shooting things).

As a non-troops choice, the Storms are going to be competing at those prices with things like LRBTS, and that's a valuable asset that can now be taken in greater numbers., or with two AC/GL squads, or with a chimera and a sentinel squadrod, etc.

They look to be joining Swooping Hawks, Mega Armored Nobz, and Tyranid Warriors in the "We just can't figure out how to make these guys good" shelf.

Clearly you've never looked down the barrels of 8 deathspitters at the same time before. Toxin sac deathspitter warrior squads are death incarnate. They will kill anything they point their guns at with a degree of certainty. They do it on the cheap too.

It's not a lost cause, after all Harlies are worth a lot and are almost as fragile, but they are very, very good at their job (HtH shock unit), and Stormtroopers are not gonig to be amazingly good at their job (shooting things).

Their job is to shoot highly protected or inaccessible things, not "things". Which is a job that no other unit in the new codex looks like it will have. Have an objective across the board with some camo cloak scouts hunkering down in it? Stormies with flamers. Pathfinders? Stormies with flamers. Got a whirlwind messing you up stuck behind two buildings? Stormies with melta. Broadsides giving you fits? Stormies with plasma. The accurate deepstrike and flanking missions on a high output alpha strike unit should not be underestimated. There are plenty of units in the game that don't at first glance appear to be excellent, and many which seem better then they really are. For a unit like this its all in how well you can use them.

Hey guys, hung out with my good friend and excellent 40k player John and we talked new dex, I wanted to add some of our thoughts to this discussion, we were talking mainly about power lists, once I figure out a couple winners, then I'll move on more to the fun lists. Here are a couple 1750s and a new cover save concept for side shots on vehicle squadrons.

I put this up last week.

command squad with artillery officer
chimera

3x10 veterans with 3x3 meltaguns
3x chimera

2x3 leman russ
manticore

Played a game with an ork list built to beat it. Misplayed it heavily, its not worth a batrep, but I would recommend finding points for the fleet officer. My ork opponent ran 3x1 deffkopta with rokkits and 3x5 kommandos with power klaw and 9x killa kans. it was admittedly built to beat the list I told him i was bringing. (he doesn't like to lose) haha. The russ squads are close to impervious to shooting, but are as vulnerable to CC as they are invulnearble to ranged fire. Your entire gameplan needs to revolve around keeping them screened, fortunately that is totally doable. The naked russes were causing about 15 wounds per shot to the ork units. What that translated to in game terms was... if they were eradicators i win, if they are russes I lose.

Here are some new lists to discuss.

command squad artillery officer and fleet officer
chimera

4x10 veterans with 4x3 meltaguns
4x chimera

3x griffon
3x griffon
2x plasma executioner with plasma sponsons

Large blast barrages can rack up a lot of hits, when you read the rules carefully. For half the points of 3x russes, the griffon can kill at least twice as many orks. they have no ability to hurt tanks, but being lured into shooting at a tank with a 450 point unit of russes is a temptation most of us can live without. I guarantee it won't yield 450 points of tank hurt

The plasma executioners are in there to answer to deep striking tank killing elements like crisis suits/terminators/oblits and to help with some long range weakening of MCs. The griffons are better against everything other than marines than the leman russes, and they can be very well screened by the chimeras, if they can't find true los blocking. I can guarantee them 4+ cover from the front and the sides very easily.

And this next one, if the unrestricted access to chimeras is actually true, and their firepoints rumor is true, might be the one I'm most scared of...

command squad fleet officer ordnance officer
chimera

platoon command and some kind of weapon
chimera
2x infantry squad autocannon/grenade launcher
2x chimera
3x HWS 3x3 lascannons
3x chimera
2x HWS 2x3 autocannons
2x chimera
2x SWS 3x3 meltas
2x chimeras

veterans 3x meltas
chimera

So this firepower is obscene! here's the count.

9x lascannons, 8x autocannons, 12x meltaguns, 12x multi-lasers, 12x heavy bolters. Its a huge amount of kill points, but every chimera except one scores, (units inside the chimera are troops just to head off any "vehicles don't score" replies) Once you've stripped an armies ability to kill armor 12 from long range or their power fists, you are in pretty good shape. this one is really just building blocks, i haven't even set it up on a table yet but it looks pretty intimidating. 41 heavy weapons coming from an entirely armor 12 firebase.


Ok i mentioned the cover save thing. This is going to be tough to do with ascii, but I'll try.

R_C_R_R//R_R_C_R
____C_C__C_C____

The C's are chimeras, the Rs are squadroned russes, the leftmost 3 russes are one squadron and the rightmost are the other.

In this formation, all russes have 4+ cover to the front as 2 of 3 are obscured by the chimeras. The formation also has side armor 13 with a 4+ cover save as any firer that has a side arc shot on the outermost russ will have the other two russes in the squadron obscured by the chimera separating them. Yes, the chimera measures less than 4" wide.

When you are up against a shooty army, and you don't need to screen russes from charges, you can just get all the chimeras 4+ cover and LOS through the russes up front...

__C_C_C_C_C_C
_R_R_R//R_R_R


Or when playing against a slow choppy army...

RR/RR
CR/RC
.C.C.C

Russes can see right over chimeras, assuming the unit being fired at is getting cover any way or you took eradicators, then you can have a decent physical screen from charges while you mop up.


My recommendation after a playtesting game and hours of discussion with the gaming group. Take eradicators or griffons, cover is too good, period. If you can't fight in CC cover will ruin you. And take the fleet officer, its not really to delay the reserves so much, although that is awesome, but spoiling the out-flank rolls a little bit is game breaking, especially in spearhead.

ShumaGorath wrote:

They look to be joining Swooping Hawks, Mega Armored Nobz, and Tyranid Warriors in the "We just can't figure out how to make these guys good" shelf.

Clearly you've never looked down the barrels of 8 deathspitters at the same time before. Toxin sac deathspitter warrior squads are death incarnate. They will kill anything they point their guns at with a degree of certainty. They do it on the cheap too.

I have not, but IIRC that unit only became the hawtness after 5th edition, not as a result of actual, you know, design. I'm also not sure I'd called ~250pts cheap, but YMMV.

Their job is to shoot highly protected or inaccessible things, not "things". Which is a job that no other unit in the new codex looks like it will have. Have an objective across the board with some camo cloak scouts hunkering down in it? Stormies with flamers. Pathfinders? Stormies with flamers. Got a whirlwind messing you up stuck behind two buildings? Stormies with melta. Broadsides giving you fits? Stormies with plasma. The accurate deepstrike and flanking missions on a high output alpha strike unit should not be underestimated. There are plenty of units in the game that don't at first glance appear to be excellent, and many which seem better then they really are. For a unit like this its all in how well you can use them.

Well, the uses your describing are essnetially suicide drop type uses, making a unit of 5 roughly a 100pt shot that can still scatter into trouble. I'm not saying they're worthless, but you're probably not going to kill even 5 scouts with two flamers and 3 hellguns. You'll take the piss out 'em, sure, but it's not the sure thing you seem to think. Even with a re-roll, getting flamers to land close to an enemy unit is tricky.

With a fast hellhound, Vakyries deep striking basic squads and/or vets, and chimeras cheap enough to be used to actually move squads, i think there is stiff competition for even the role of behind the lines flusher.

ShumaGorath wrote:Clearly you've never looked down the barrels of 8 deathspitters at the same time before. Toxin sac deathspitter warrior squads are death incarnate. They will kill anything they point their guns at with a degree of certainty. They do it on the cheap too.

Just wanted to make a side point for clarity's sake. What you're actually arguing with Tyranid Warriors is that players will find ways to use a unit even if it's not what's needed or intended. Tyranid Warriors actually don't do their intended job as well as they should. Somewhat ironically, effective shooting isn't needed by Tyranid armies so much as durable, reliable forward synapse, and Warriors are so-so in that role. Polonius also makes a fair and important point that said build only became effective because of main rules changes four years after the codex was designed.

I'm not enough of an IG expert to really have an informed opinion on ST, but that price tag is certainly high enough for a semi-suicide unit to give anyone pause.

I have not, but IIRC that unit only became the hawtness after 5th edition, not as a result of actual, you know, design. I'm also not sure I'd called ~250pts cheap, but YMMV.

Certainly true enough, though drop melta vets weren't spectacular until fifth edition either. Thats neither here nor there though.

Just wanted to make a side point for clarity's sake. What you're actually arguing with Tyranid Warriors is that players will find ways to use a unit even if it's not what's needed or intended. Tyranid Warriors actually don't do their intended job as well as they should. Somewhat ironically, effective shooting isn't needed by Tyranid armies so much as durable, reliable forward synapse, and Warriors are so-so in that role. Polonius also makes a fair and important point that said build only became effective because of main rules changes four years after the codex was designed.

Fair enough.

I'm not enough of an IG expert to really have an informed opinion on ST, but that price tag is certainly high enough for a semi-suicide unit to give anyone pause.

I used to pay that much for a pair of lictors, and considerably more for infiltrating stealers (though admittedly lictors are just awful). I now pay considerably more than that for a sternguard squad, and once assembled I'm going to be paying more for a squad of melta drop pod marine command squadies (dear god they are cost effective).

It's in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Many armies pay as much or more for suicide units. The guard are just new to the concept of a suicide unit over 100 points.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Certainly true enough, though drop melta vets weren't spectacular until fifth edition either. Thats neither here nor there though.

Nope. They rocked hard in 4th edition as well. They did get better with 5th, as no missions lacked deep strike, outflank gave them a new option, and they could even be held back for counter charge, but they were a great unit in 4th edition.

I used to pay that much for a pair of lictors, and considerably more for infiltrating stealers (though admittedly lictors are just awful). I now pay considerably more than that for a sternguard squad, and once assembled I'm going to be paying more for a squad of melta drop pod marine command squadies (dear god they are cost effective).

It's in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Many armies pay as much or more for suicide units. The guard are just new to the concept of a suicide unit over 100 points.

The point we're making is that comparisons to Sternguard are difficult, because sternguard can both do more damage (with combi-meltas), can split fire (with combat squads), can land far more accurately (with a pod), and are substantially more resilient (with T4, LD9, ATSKNF, and a 3+ save), that comparisons break down a bit. Stern guard reliably drop a landraider or an MC. I'm not sure stormtroopers can do that. If there are no other options available, stormtroopers might rise to the occaision, but I'm not going to run a suicide squad that's more expensive than either what it destroys, or what it protects by knocking out a threatening unit.

Shep wrote:Hey guys, hung out with my good friend and excellent 40k player John and we talked new dex, I wanted to add some of our thoughts to this discussion, we were talking mainly about power lists, once I figure out a couple winners, then I'll move on more to the fun lists. Here are a couple 1750s and a new cover save concept for side shots on vehicle squadrons.

I put this up last week.

command squad with artillery officer
chimera

3x10 veterans with 3x3 meltaguns
3x chimera

2x3 leman russ
manticore

Played a game with an ork list built to beat it. Misplayed it heavily, its not worth a batrep, but I would recommend finding points for the fleet officer. My ork opponent ran 3x1 deffkopta with rokkits and 3x5 kommandos with power klaw and 9x killa kans. it was admittedly built to beat the list I told him i was bringing. (he doesn't like to lose) haha. The russ squads are close to impervious to shooting, but are as vulnerable to CC as they are invulnearble to ranged fire. Your entire gameplan needs to revolve around keeping them screened, fortunately that is totally doable. The naked russes were causing about 15 wounds per shot to the ork units. What that translated to in game terms was... if they were eradicators i win, if they are russes I lose.

Really? So 6 Russes didn't do the job, then? Do you feel confident that the anti-cover save round makes up for the lack of range compared to the standard Russ? How different of a result do you feel this would have made? Are we talking that it would have made it a close game instead of a loss or that it would have wiped the board?

Shep wrote:Here are some new lists to discuss.

command squad artillery officer and fleet officer
chimera

4x10 veterans with 4x3 meltaguns
4x chimera

3x griffon
3x griffon
2x plasma executioner with plasma sponsons

Large blast barrages can rack up a lot of hits, when you read the rules carefully. For half the points of 3x russes, the griffon can kill at least twice as many orks. they have no ability to hurt tanks, but being lured into shooting at a tank with a 450 point unit of russes is a temptation most of us can live without. I guarantee it won't yield 450 points of tank hurt

The plasma executioners are in there to answer to deep striking tank killing elements like crisis suits/terminators/oblits and to help with some long range weakening of MCs. The griffons are better against everything other than marines than the leman russes, and they can be very well screened by the chimeras, if they can't find true los blocking. I can guarantee them 4+ cover from the front and the sides very easily.

I can see this doing very well against Orks, but how would it do vs. say a similar armor-heavy Guard army?

Shep wrote:And this next one, if the unrestricted access to chimeras is actually true, and their firepoints rumor is true, might be the one I'm most scared of...

command squad fleet officer ordnance officer
chimera

platoon command and some kind of weapon
chimera
2x infantry squad autocannon/grenade launcher
2x chimera
3x HWS 3x3 lascannons
3x chimera
2x HWS 2x3 autocannons
2x chimera
2x SWS 3x3 meltas
2x chimeras

veterans 3x meltas
chimera

So this firepower is obscene! here's the count.

9x lascannons, 8x autocannons, 12x meltaguns, 12x multi-lasers, 12x heavy bolters. Its a huge amount of kill points, but every chimera except one scores, (units inside the chimera are troops just to head off any "vehicles don't score" replies) Once you've stripped an armies ability to kill armor 12 from long range or their power fists, you are in pretty good shape. this one is really just building blocks, i haven't even set it up on a table yet but it looks pretty intimidating. 41 heavy weapons coming from an entirely armor 12 firebase.

That's a boatload of Chimeras. As opposed to the above list which will do better vs horde and worse vs armor, I see this as the opposite. I can see horde orks giving this some problems. The other thing I'd be interested to see from your playtesting is how well these armies do in KP missions. Have you figured out a list optimized for KP yet?

I was knocking around ideas for the Psyker Choir (or whatever it is called) and am thinking that a LD beat down focused army using IG and Inq. could be fun (if not terribly effective).

Use say a Psyker squad to drop a unit's LD to 6 or 7, assuming that is what they do. Fearless units don't care, until you drop a Callidus next to them and hit them with a neural shredder, wounding on a 2-3+ with an AP1 template.
If you have snipers (ratling or otherwise) you can almost certainly get a pinned result after dropping a unit's LD down so low it can't pass a check.
An immolator with Holy Promethium making every wound count as a 25% loss requiring a LD check.
Tank shock...
I don't remember for certain, but I think Daemonhosts have a fear causing ability.

I suspect I am missing a few more things that exploit low leadership targets, but just those make for a fun/wierd army idea. I am kind of excited now to make an army based around that mechanic, assuming it doesn't secretly suck.

Your psychic choir idea is very interesting and a lot will depend on how important LOS is/how easily the Choir can be protected and their range. If they're reasonably economical points-wise, this could be a very powerful addition to a "standard" list, especially in pushing troops off of objectives.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
Really? So 6 Russes didn't do the job, then? Do you feel confident that the anti-cover save round makes up for the lack of range compared to the standard Russ? How different of a result do you feel this would have made? Are we talking that it would have made it a close game instead of a loss or that it would have wiped the board?

The range certainly is a big issue, and I think its valid. Thats kinda why I like griffons as well as eradicators. Against the particular list I played against, if my russes were eradicators and I had the fleet officer, I would have tabled him. i wouldn't have been tempted to put my pie plates on KFF covered killa kans, I would have shredded the two units that had KFF meks, then after screening my russes from kan charges i would have put my 9 meltas onto the kans... with no cover saves, they'd have dropped fast. the way the game went, I put my entire army into one kan unit. After all the scattering was done, I had killed 12 orks in two different units and one kan and crew shook another. Game was over at that point. if those 6 russes ignored cover, then turn one I say -1 30 man ork unit with KFF. On turn 2 I say - another 30 man unit and the other KFF, and then probably get thrashed by whatever kan unit had the best run rolls. Then on turn three I kill 5 or 6 killa kans with my BS4 meltas, whatever I have left in leman russes at this point can start picking at his last remaining ork unit. The kommandos and deffkoptas were absolutely devastating to me. i lost a manticore and a chimera and got three leman russ weapon destroyeds and 2x crew shakens from those 6 units. Disrupting them with the fleet officer would have saved me from the big loss I took, even with my bad tactical decision i made on turn 1.

Death By Monkeys wrote:I can see this doing very well against Orks, but how would it do vs. say a similar armor-heavy Guard army?

Well, I knew that standard russes weren't the greatest anti-tank shot when they were single tanks. For some dumb reason i thought that somehow having three of them would make the unit a tank killer. It is obviously better at killing tanks, but not cost effective. 6 standard russes wouldn't help me face off against armor 14 spammers. I'll need my melta guns for that, or spammed HWS with lascannons and order support.

I can't really imagine what guard armor versus guard armor will be like. I'm assuming he who gets his melta guns into position first wins. or if one of them had 6-9 lascannons then he has the edge. This is the kinda matchup that makes you want to plump for infiltrators and an astropath on your veterans. Thats going to be devastating to armor spam, a chimera full of 3x Bs4 meltas flanking early and accurately.

Death By Monkeys wrote:That's a boatload of Chimeras. As opposed to the above list which will do better vs horde and worse vs armor, I see this as the opposite. I can see horde orks giving this some problems. The other thing I'd be interested to see from your playtesting is how well these armies do in KP missions. Have you figured out a list optimized for KP yet?

The KP optimization is easy. Just take veterans and stay away from platoons. Not to say that platoons are KP disasters, but if you aren't feeling like micromanaging a sub-set of KP, then just don't take any of the macro-units.

KP are very tricky when it comes to armor, because once you've killed an enemies ability to kill armor then you just get to scratch every vehicle off of your KP list. That 24 KP army I just posted drops immediately to a 0 KP army the second you eliminate heavy weapons and/or power fists. Not ever gonna happen practically speaking, but the concept is sound.

In that playtest game this weekend, I would have loved KP. With his 6 outflanking units, and 4 troop units and 3x kan units, I was way up. He went right after my russes, which were only worth 2 total KP, I conceded when i stopped learning, he would have gotten all 6 russes at the end. But I had already tallied 3 deffkoptas, 2 units of kans, 2 troop units, 2 big meks and 1 kommando unit, he was a manticore a chimera one vet unit and 2 russ squadrons into me. He had a lone kan and 2 5 man ork units in sight of my guns. i don't think KP would have ended well for him. But that wasn't the mission, and he had me beat. And it was cover saves that made it happen for him.

Seems to me that if Veterans are as good as they sound, I might just field my Kasrkin as Carapace Armored Vets with a Chimera or something. They'll lose the AP3 Lasgun, but will gain a 3rd Plasma Gun in each Squad, and will give me an opportunity to try modeling a Storm-Trooper style Heavy Weapon.

I'd really like to see what is in store for Storm Troopers, though. My first impression is "Holy gak, you expect me to pay 16 points per model for that?!" but with all their orders and the ST Special Character I keep hearing about, I am hesistant to pass judgement. All I know for sure is that until leaked pages or the 2nd of May rolls around, I will be in the dark.

CK

Recent from warseer user Lamoron "This is correct, but Creed has a 24" command radius (making him damn near mandatory) and Kell takes the place of a veteran (not standard bearer). Kell allows the unit he's in to use the officers leadership instead of the units, for units affected by that officers orders. Kell does NOT need to be in the same squad as creed, but they get a "look out sir" rule if they are."

Every time I hear something new about Creed the word "mandatory" springs immediately to mind. HBMC must be happy.

Raxmei wrote:HBMC must be happy.

Fuming, more like it. I'm tired of mandatory unspecial Special Characters. If he really does have a 24" Command Radius (so, 48" diameter, which is huge) then he will be mandatory, especially with the (completely unecessary) loss of regular Command Radii. End of Story.

Every Guard army will have Creed, and he joins the ranks of Eldrad as one of the most overused characters in the game.

Does that mean that Eldratar is to Imperial Creedard as Spawn are to Ogryn?

CK

Creed/Kell are sounding more and more powerful. 4 orders that allow for FC/fearless (not only great for charging into objectives, but also auto rallys any fleeing troops). Now a 24" Leadership bubble, which is again, huge. So you will be able to have 4 HWS all getting CHQ orders at LD10 (instead of Ld7). Gives a unit Scout (not to be underestimated in the least), and may even have other abilities.

However, we do not have the price of C&K yet, so although he sounds like the King Kong of HQs, he may cost a lot.

But personally, I am hoping not, because I love Creed and Kell, like any loyal son of Cadia!

Mind ya'll, Creed is the Lord Castellan of Cadia, making him a lite-version of Calgar to some degree.

I heard Creed was an upgrade of the CHQ for +80 points.

BrookM wrote:Mind ya'll, Creed is the Lord Castellan of Cadia, making him a lite-version of Calgar to some degree.

So, he is only over one planet.... Small fry.... Get me an IG segmentum commandar at the very minimum...

Dexy wrote:I heard Creed was an upgrade of the CHQ for +80 points.

If true, than he is manditory.....