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Just completed a round rumour checking before going to bed. The latest info seemed to be that Creeds large bubble is not old type general leadership thing but instead used for Orders only.

foil7102 wrote:

Dexy wrote:I heard Creed was an upgrade of the CHQ for +80 points.

If true, than he is manditory.....

So he can give orders to units that are 24" away. Like any commander is supposedly able to do given a vox network, He can give two extra orders which seems nice, but his special character order gives a guard unit close combat abilities. I'm sure we can all live without that. 80 points is enough to buy another HQ command squad if thats legal, and possibly enough to buy two more platoon command squads, giving us those two orders back.

And at 80 points i can buy a griffon, a hydra, a veteran unit, 2 autocannon sentinels, a heavy weapon squad with heavy bolters, a special weapon squad with 3 of anything, and countless other 'less good' stuff.

Its looking more likely that he'll be playable, but avoidable.

I'm kinda bummed out that we won't be seeing a 'Gaunts ghosts' style scout squad. Some crazy infiltrating neigh invisible scoring marine killing goodness would have been fun to play with. *edit* of course, a 0-1 choice.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I'm kinda bummed out that we won't be seeing a 'Gaunts ghosts' style scout squad. Some crazy infiltrating neigh invisible scoring marine killing goodness would have been fun to play with. *edit* of course, a 0-1 choice.

Isn't that what the Vets w/ Camo Cloaks, Move through Terrain, and Infiltrate are? I mean, other than some plasma or melta shots, they won't do much good versus SM, but the Ghosts have only rarely, rarely faced CSM in the books. And when they have, it hasn't been an easy fight.

Shep wrote: i lost a manticore and a chimera and got three leman russ weapon destroyeds and 2x crew shakens from those 6 units. Disrupting them with the fleet officer would have saved me from the big loss I took, even with my bad tactical decision i made on turn 1.

Which reminds me - I'd also meant to ask how the Manticore fared for you.

Death By Monkeys wrote:I can see this doing very well against Orks, but how would it do vs. say a similar armor-heavy Guard army?

Shep wrote:I can't really imagine what guard armor versus guard armor will be like. I'm assuming he who gets his melta guns into position first wins. or if one of them had 6-9 lascannons then he has the edge. This is the kinda matchup that makes you want to plump for infiltrators and an astropath on your veterans. Thats going to be devastating to armor spam, a chimera full of 3x Bs4 meltas flanking early and accurately.

Yeah, it's actually really surprised me that no one has talked about continuing to take Inquisitors w/ Mystics to protect the backfield. It'll be expensive, but 3x melta vets in a Vendetta will be a hard unit to beat when it comes to tank-killing power.

Shep wrote:The KP optimization is easy. Just take veterans and stay away from platoons. Not to say that platoons are KP disasters, but if you aren't feeling like micromanaging a sub-set of KP, then just don't take any of the macro-units.

That's a good point. And squadronable vehicles work very nicely towards this as well.

Shep wrote:

foil7102 wrote:

Dexy wrote:I heard Creed was an upgrade of the CHQ for +80 points.

If true, than he is manditory.....

So he can give orders to units that are 24" away. Like any commander is supposedly able to do given a vox network, He can give two extra orders which seems nice, but his special character order gives a guard unit close combat abilities. I'm sure we can all live without that. 80 points is enough to buy another HQ command squad if thats legal, and possibly enough to buy two more platoon command squads, giving us those two orders back.

And at 80 points i can buy a griffon, a hydra, a veteran unit, 2 autocannon sentinels, a heavy weapon squad with heavy bolters, a special weapon squad with 3 of anything, and countless other 'less good' stuff.

Its looking more likely that he'll be playable, but avoidable.

I think you are overlooking the fact that Creed not only gives the squad Furious Charge (nice for RR, and a charging horde of conscripts) but the same Order also gives Fearless. If we have a squad who failed their morale and is running, Creed can make them fearless and they auto regroup (even underhalf strength, and even within 6" of enemy).

If Creed is really 80pts, I think he will be finding a way into most of my 1500+ lists.

BoxANT wrote:I think you are overlooking the fact that Creed not only gives the squad Furious Charge (nice for RR, and a charging horde of conscripts) but the same Order also gives Fearless. If we have a squad who failed their morale and is running, Creed can make them fearless and they auto regroup (even underhalf strength, and even within 6" of enemy).

If Creed is really 80pts, I think he will be finding a way into most of my 1500+ lists.

The devil remains in the details. Does the Fearless order persist through the following enemy turn? Can a Fleeing unit take orders?

Janthkin wrote:

BoxANT wrote:I think you are overlooking the fact that Creed not only gives the squad Furious Charge (nice for RR, and a charging horde of conscripts) but the same Order also gives Fearless. If we have a squad who failed their morale and is running, Creed can make them fearless and they auto regroup (even underhalf strength, and even within 6" of enemy).

If Creed is really 80pts, I think he will be finding a way into most of my 1500+ lists.

The devil remains in the details. Does the Fearless order persist through the following enemy turn? Can a Fleeing unit take orders?

True, more details are needed, but considering one of the SC is said to have an Order that gives Furious Charge and Counter-Attack (which would do nothing if it didn't work in enemy turn), i think it is a safe bet to think that they will work in both yours and your opponents following turn.


As for giving Orders to fleeing units, hopefully!

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:I'm kinda bummed out that we won't be seeing a 'Gaunts ghosts' style scout squad. Some crazy infiltrating neigh invisible scoring marine killing goodness would have been fun to play with. *edit* of course, a 0-1 choice.

Isn't that what the Vets w/ Camo Cloaks, Move through Terrain, and Infiltrate are? I mean, other than some plasma or melta shots, they won't do much good versus SM, but the Ghosts have only rarely, rarely faced CSM in the books. And when they have, it hasn't been an easy fight.

I guess you're right. That is basically what they are. Maybe Ghosts would have +1 ws or somthing, or their shots would be rending. I dunno. I should kill some (more) time and write a Tanith 1st mini-dex. lol, rending las guns! Only the 1st and only!

The thing about tanith is that they are the main characters and they basically have to win. It's like a movie marine army, it's an interesting idea but doesn't really work in the game.

BoxANT wrote:
I think you are overlooking the fact that Creed not only gives the squad Furious Charge (nice for RR, and a charging horde of conscripts) but the same Order also gives Fearless. If we have a squad who failed their morale and is running, Creed can make them fearless and they auto regroup (even underhalf strength, and even within 6" of enemy).

If Creed is really 80pts, I think he will be finding a way into most of my 1500+ lists.

Doesn't everyone have the "hey you! regroup and unpin yourself!" order? That seems like it would do what you were saying the fearless half of "for cadia!" would do.

And he doesn't seem to be 80 points, he seems to 'replace' the company commander for 80 points. So total cost 140 for a company command squad featuring the Lord-Castellan.

If I played Cadians, i'd use him for sure, because of the rule of cool and because he seems like he has some cool rules. But it doesn't seem like people are going to need to make "counts as" creed's.

I will be having my basic metal commander model count as creed, because I have no desire for a sneaky commander, or a conscripty commander, or any other such "flavor" commander. I just want a commander that commands, as well as possible.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Which reminds me - I'd also meant to ask how the Manticore fared for you.

Manticore was great. If the rule is basically 'shoot it 4 times, each shot is d3 blasts' then its a great artillery piece. If you roll a 1, 1, 2, 3 for your 4 rockets, then you've fired 7 blasts. Which is one more than any other artillery piece would fire in a game, and you front-loaded it, which is a major advantage. the loss of AP3 on a bassy is negligible. I assume any power armored model will be in area cover if they see me coming with a rack of bassies, which means the bassy is only 16% more deadly. I don't think the manticore is an "always take" vehicle, but its a nice option at 160 points. I'm not sure if its covered in the main rulebook or in the manticore profile but if the d3 shots ended up falling under the 'multiple barrage' rules in the book, then it can be pretty devastating if you get a couple 'hit' rolls on the scatter die.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Yeah, it's actually really surprised me that no one has talked about continuing to take Inquisitors w/ Mystics to protect the backfield. It'll be expensive, but 3x melta vets in a Vendetta will be a hard unit to beat when it comes to tank-killing power.

I instantly thought inquis/mystics unit next to the leman russ executioner when I started building, but i think that the fleet officer combined with tons and tons of large blasts and transport options up the wazoo is going to hurt drop pod assault and demonic assault big time. As long as you have a physical bubble to block melta from getting into russ squadrons and as long as demons only have vehicles to shoot at, I think mystics tend to be a 'win more' unit, and they inject that awful kill point problem again.

The main reason the vendetta hasn't made any of my lists is that I really want to confirm which set of rumors is right. move 6" fire 3 twin-linked lascannons sounds pretty good, but I want to know what else I'm getting for 130 points. Also, with the 3 fire points non-open topped, chimera, our formerly suicidal anti-tank units have become substantially less suicidal and much more reusable. But not if they are grav-chuting out of a vendetta.

You seem to be asking some pretty insightful questions and making some pretty good observations. Are you a tourney player? What builds are you looking at considering the rumors so far?

The good thing about an inquisitor and mystics is that it is really easy to hide especially if you have vehicles.

Anyone tried out the Deathstrike yet?

Shep:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Yeah, it's actually really surprised me that no one has talked about continuing to take Inquisitors w/ Mystics to protect the backfield. It'll be expensive, but 3x melta vets in a Vendetta will be a hard unit to beat when it comes to tank-killing power.

I instantly thought inquis/mystics unit next to the leman russ executioner when I started building, but i think that the fleet officer combined with tons and tons of large blasts and transport options up the wazoo is going to hurt drop pod assault and demonic assault big time. As long as you have a physical bubble to block melta from getting into russ squadrons and as long as demons only have vehicles to shoot at, I think mystics tend to be a 'win more' unit, and they inject that awful kill point problem again.

I was just looking at their "free shot" rule. With tanks now in squadrons, won't this allow an entire squadron of three to fire each detected incoming deep-strike unit as if standing still? The standing still part seems like a limited benefit, given that I doubt deep strikers would be within an IG tank's sposon traversal arc, but that still seems like it would allow tanks to guard their own rear quarters nicely.

Shep wrote:I instantly thought inquis/mystics unit next to the leman russ executioner when I started building, but i think that the fleet officer combined with tons and tons of large blasts and transport options up the wazoo is going to hurt drop pod assault and demonic assault big time. As long as you have a physical bubble to block melta from getting into russ squadrons and as long as demons only have vehicles to shoot at, I think mystics tend to be a 'win more' unit, and they inject that awful kill point problem again.

True - there is the KP problem, but I can especially see them getting play at the 2500 point 'Ard Boyz level - throw them in a Land Raider for extra survivability and TL-lascannon goodness.

Shep wrote:The main reason the vendetta hasn't made any of my lists is that I really want to confirm which set of rumors is right. move 6" fire 3 twin-linked lascannons sounds pretty good, but I want to know what else I'm getting for 130 points. Also, with the 3 fire points non-open topped, chimera, our formerly suicidal anti-tank units have become substantially less suicidal and much more reusable. But not if they are grav-chuting out of a vendetta.

Very understandable - hell, I applaud you for trying to playest what list we already have. I can certainly understand not wanting to playtest something that we know so little about. I mean, from my perspective, 3x TL Lascanons for 130 points is a steal! Not to mention transport capacity? That's just silly. I mean, look at Imperial Armor. I'd consider the Thunderbolt to be moderately comparable from a strategic role/armament perspective - although instead of 3x TL Lascannon, you've got 1x TL Lascannon and 2x TL AC. Granted, as a flier, the Thunderbolt has advantages both defensive (hard to hit, additional range for height) and offensive (easy LOS from the air and the ability to make your full move and fire), but at 180 points, the Thunderbolt is only marginally overpriced as a tank/vehicle killer (as opposed to completely overpriced by IA standards). In comparison, the Vendetta has better vehicle-killing power, better armor, and weirdly a transport capacity (IMHO a gunship like this really shouldn't), but lacks the ability to do SGF and fire, thus requiring it to make it easier to hit if you want to attack with it. The advantages more than outweigh the disadvantages for the price, though. While at one point, I was excited about the possibility of a Valk-heavy army, as the rumors have progressed, I've backed away from those thoughts, but have begun thinking more seriously about a squadron of Vendettas.

Shep wrote:You seem to be asking some pretty insightful questions and making some pretty good observations. Are you a tourney player? What builds are you looking at considering the rumors so far?

Heh. I wish. I'm just a long-time player who has tried to study the lists and tactics of folks like H.B.M.C. and Janthkin who have made it their focus to make solid IG lists, as well as folks like Stelek, who, like him or hate him, has a talented eye for exploiting strong (some might say "broken") units. As far as my own builds go, I've never been one for Ogryns, Stormtroopers, or RRs, so I can't say I've really considered them into my builds yet. Frankly, the closest I've come to a build list so far is:

1x CHQ w/ 3x Melta in a Chimera
2x Vet Squad w/ 3x Melta in Chimeras
3x LRBTs (1 w/ Knight Commander Pask)
3x LRBTs
3x LRBTs

And particularly after your playtest report, I don't think it's much good. As a number of folks have said, the devil is in the details, so I'm having a hard time settling on a list I like without knowing the detailed rules for a lot of these models.

Has 3x TL LC been confirmed for vendettas? That seems pretty damn strong for only 130 points.

Agreed. Yes, he's two kill points. But. He's two kill points of Impossible-to-shoot/assault-unless-you-go-diving-through-my-front-line-and-melta-his-transport-somehow.

ShumaGorath wrote:

They look to be joining Swooping Hawks, Mega Armored Nobz, and Tyranid Warriors in the "We just can't figure out how to make these guys good" shelf.

Clearly you've never looked down the barrels of 8 deathspitters at the same time before. Toxin sac deathspitter warrior squads are death incarnate. They will kill anything they point their guns at with a degree of certainty. They do it on the cheap too.

It's not a lost cause, after all Harlies are worth a lot and are almost as fragile, but they are very, very good at their job (HtH shock unit), and Stormtroopers are not gonig to be amazingly good at their job (shooting things).

Their job is to shoot highly protected or inaccessible things, not "things". Which is a job that no other unit in the new codex looks like it will have. Have an objective across the board with some camo cloak scouts hunkering down in it? Stormies with flamers. Pathfinders? Stormies with flamers. Got a whirlwind messing you up stuck behind two buildings? Stormies with melta. Broadsides giving you fits? Stormies with plasma. The accurate deepstrike and flanking missions on a high output alpha strike unit should not be underestimated. There are plenty of units in the game that don't at first glance appear to be excellent, and many which seem better then they really are. For a unit like this its all in how well you can use them.

highly protected or inaccessible units, lets see how your examples stack up

scouts in camo cloaks = hellhound or banehound (you may quibble survivability but in my experience ork skorchas which are very similar tanks can do this job), vets with flamers and a valkyrie (they can capture the objective afterwards too), griffon (admittedly it has a range issue)

pathfinders = all of the above + the griffon will probably work better since they have to get closer to use their markerlights

whirlwind = earthshakers, the fire anywhere ordnance officer, vets with meltaguns and a valkyrie, vendetta moving fast to get off a good shot, outflanking sentinels with multilasers or better, devil dog.

broadsides = assuming use of cover that will make ordnance bounce off them I would say that this is one job the stormies can potentially do better than other options but 3 plasma vets with a valkyrie is comparable for about the same pts


I agree with you that they're an alpha strike suicide unit which can be used to target a big enemy threat early in the game, kill it before it causes too much trouble and then die as they've probably easily made their pts back/fulfilled their role. However the way they're designed you have to pay for that ap3 even if the target you have in mind won't be too fussed by it. It is a total waste of pts against vehicles or most cover save reliant units. In fact it may not work against some of the units it is seemingly there for as things like broadsides, devastator squads and the like that you bought your stormies to kill will be sitting in cover and rocking cover saves that lets them not care too much about that ap3.
In contrast vets with a valkyrie can do much the same job but cheaper and so more efficiently if not quite so effectively.



Changing the subject the psyker choir looks to be a decidedly nasty option and possibly the best elites choice in the new dex. A lot depends on pts and the exact wording of the rules but as I read it now 9 psykers will give a -9 leaderhip drop to a target unit in range. That is huge and combos horrifically with Imperial Guard shooting. Ratlings, ordnance barrage, mortars and stormies (with mission) all pin. The hellhound forces an ld test still I believe. Selecting an enemy unit that is deadly and pinning it for the whole game could be an excellent way of dealing with some of the uber units in 40k. Imagine leaving nob bikers stuck in the middle of the battlefield for an entire game. It could be a very good tool for defending positions from enemy assault units. The choir drops their ld,　the pinning weaposn hold them for a turn and the rets of the guns suddenly have an extra turn to try and wipe them out.

On Warseer (p. 82, http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188818&page=82), a fellow called Lamoron claimed to have looked at a codex at his FLGS. He had answers to three of my questions:

1. Cost of voxcasters: 5 points (Warseer p. 85, http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188818&page=85)

2. Details on Master of Ordnance: 30 points, can call in a S9 AP3 Ordnance shot with unlimited range if he doesn't move that turn but this blast scatters 2d6 on a "hit" & 3d6 on a arrow, deduct BS if within LoS

3. Cost of medics (command squads only): 30 points (also on p. 85)

Has anyone seen these point values on other rumor sites? I can live with 1 and 2 but may not buy any medics at 30 points each. On the other hand it would frustrate your opponent if he tried to kill your command squad by shooting through your other squads. You could 'go to ground' and get a 3+ cover save followed by a FNP roll.

The only problem I see with the psychic choir is that making a combo with -ld and pinning takes planning to execute and doesn't offer that great a reward. However it could be great for getting rid of uber units.
EDIT: ouch @ 30 point medics. +30 points to a 50 (130 with creed?) command squad seems like a high price to pay for FNP. I would rather just hide my command squad.

FNP for 5 piddly humans is worth 30 points?

Jesus...

That's another 6 Guardsmen right there!

I'd rather add 6 Guardsmen to the command squad.

What's this new guy's name? The one writing this Codex? You can tell it's his first, can't'cha?

*thinks back to my original Codex Cadia in the mid 90's and the sheer awfulness of it*

Yeah, really obviously his first stab at this.

I think it's Robin Crudace(sp?).

I don't care what his name is... yet. If the book turns out well (somehow) then I'll continue not caring. If it is stinker I need to think of stupid plays on his name. Like mr. Crudface

In contrast vets with a valkyrie can do much the same job but cheaper and so more efficiently if not quite so effectively.

Given that the valk is a 100+ point transport carrying a squad its vulnerable in ways that the stormies aren't. It's also two kill points to the stormies one (an issue with the more accurate and harder hitting sterns too).

I agree with you that they're an alpha strike suicide unit which can be used to target a big enemy threat early in the game, kill it before it causes too much trouble and then die as they've probably easily made their pts back/fulfilled their role. However the way they're designed you have to pay for that ap3 even if the target you have in mind won't be too fussed by it. It is a total waste of pts against vehicles or most cover save reliant units. In fact it may not work against some of the units it is seemingly there for as things like broadsides, devastator squads and the like that you bought your stormies to kill will be sitting in cover and rocking cover saves that lets them not care too much about that ap3.

They are an multi use unit, to be sure. However having a range of capability doesn't make them worse. Flexibility is expensive, but they are fairly capable of doing all of the above in a way that a vet squad zooming over and unleashing melta hell (for the same or more points given the cost of their transport) could not. They are also not at risk of having their giant flying 12/12/10 aircraft shot down, though they are in danger of flanking the wrong board edge or scattering into a rock and disappearing forever. They aren't the inaccurate scalpel of current low cost vet squads, but they manage to get their job done for relatively cheap compared to similar units in other armies or the alternatives within the same codex.

They are just different. I'm confidant they will find a niche of use in certain armies (as all specialty units should).



As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.

ShumaGorath wrote:

In contrast vets with a valkyrie can do much the same job but cheaper and so more efficiently if not quite so effectively.

Given that the valk is a 100+ point transport carrying a squad its vulnerable in ways that the stormies aren't. It's also two kill points to the stormies one (an issue with the more accurate and harder hitting sterns too).

I agree with you that they're an alpha strike suicide unit which can be used to target a big enemy threat early in the game, kill it before it causes too much trouble and then die as they've probably easily made their pts back/fulfilled their role. However the way they're designed you have to pay for that ap3 even if the target you have in mind won't be too fussed by it. It is a total waste of pts against vehicles or most cover save reliant units. In fact it may not work against some of the units it is seemingly there for as things like broadsides, devastator squads and the like that you bought your stormies to kill will be sitting in cover and rocking cover saves that lets them not care too much about that ap3.

They are an multi use unit, to be sure. However having a range of capability doesn't make them worse. Flexibility is expensive, but they are fairly capable of doing all of the above in a way that a vet squad zooming over and unleashing melta hell (for the same or more points given the cost of their transport) could not. They are also not at risk of having their giant flying 12/12/10 aircraft shot down, though they are in danger of flanking the wrong board edge or scattering into a rock and disappearing forever. They aren't the inaccurate scalpel of current low cost vet squads, but they manage to get their job done for relatively cheap compared to similar units in other armies or the alternatives within the same codex.

They are just different. I'm confidant they will find a niche of use in certain armies (as all specialty units should).

They aren't a multi-use unit nor are they flexible. They can be tailored to remove one kind of opponent in a suicide strike before they die. They always come as stock and priced to include weapons that make their targets principally MEQ units. Tailoring them to fight other forces is therefore wasting those points spent on the hot shot lasguns. Arguably melta and hot shots gives you some flexibility but they certainly can't be built to take on all the foes you suggested at once.

The questions before using them a player has to ask himself is
1.) What options do I have in my army for dealing with small dangerous MEQ units, hidden vehicles and enemies entrenched in cover?
2.) which of these options are the most efficient for dealing with these threats?
3. which of these options are the most reliable for dealing with these threats?

In my opinion hellhounds are more efficient for entrenched enemies, vets in a valkyrie are more efficient for hidden vehicles and pretty much everything else in the army can deal with small dangerous MEQ units although arguably stormtroopers are quite good at it.

I do think that some people will use stormies but some people use flashgitz; it doesn't make them a good choice.

ShumaGorath wrote:

As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.

HOLY #&*%$ are you insane? 250 points for a T3 4+ save model? Please tell me you're joking. If you are, you should never do stand up comedy. If you're not, well what little shreds of credibility that you had (if any) just went down the pipe.

Out of all of the ridiculous comments I've heard about this codex, this one takes the cake.

Congratulations. Right now I'm a bit stunned and shaking my head in disbelief. Never has any one been so off the mark, even Mr Cruddarse...oops...Cruddace.

Wow...just...wow...I'll bet you play Space Marines...


Oh, and still no one has answered my question:

What the feth do Targeters do?!