Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.

HOLY #&*%$ are you insane? 250 points for a T3 4+ save model? Please tell me you're joking. If you are, you should never do stand up comedy. If you're not, well what little shreds of credibility that you had (if any) just went down the pipe.

Out of all of the ridiculous comments I've heard about this codex, this one takes the cake.

Congratulations. Right now I'm a bit stunned and shaking my head in disbelief. Never has any one been so off the mark, even Mr Cruddarse...oops...Cruddace.

Wow...just...wow...I'll bet you play Space Marines...

Eldrad is toughness 3 and somehow manages to make it into three quarters of all eldar armies... If he's worth the cost then he's worth the risk. I'm hoping he's both highly expensive and worth the cost. Every army has a legendary supercharacter (marneus, eldrad, abaddon, ghazgull, space pope, the dude in the raider, the guy in the dreadnaut chair, etc). I want him (and maybe his flag guy with him) to be that character.


And yeah, I play space marines. I also played tyranids immediately before that. Orks before that. Tyranids before that. Whats your point?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I do think that some people will use stormies but some people use flashgitz; it doesn't make them a good choice.

Say what you will about the gitz. They are nobz with great gunz an dey is da killiest n' dems always gots a target sumwherz... derz a few o' dem in my static gunline ork list o' doom.

okay in english: Flash gitz, where they may seem inferior to lootas in typical (boring) builds. But in a strong shooting army they can break hard targets by getting a good ap roll and, when it comes time, they are a pack of nobz that waggs quite nicely.

Yeah, Inq+2 mystics behind a Squad of LRBT, that would be completely sickening



30 pt medics ... man I hope that is not right. I guess if you sink a lot of points into a CHQ (advisors ect), it might be worth it to protect your investment...



5pt Voxes, oh well, I was *really* hoping that they would be included in the price of Infantry Squads. To put them on your whole army, you are looking at over 100 pts ... hmmm better be worth it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Eldrad is toughness 3 and somehow manages to make it into three quarters of all eldar armies... If he's worth the cost then he's worth the risk. I'm hoping he's both highly expensive and worth the cost.

And your credibility goes down even further. Eldrad is T4. He has a 3+ invulnerable save. He has all of the available psychic powers, and he can use 3 per turn. Some of which that allow reroll of failed saves, wounds, and hits, and he can use one of them twice. He is also pretty good in close combat and could hold his own pretty well imo, but he's not for CC.

If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.

And yeah, I play space marines.

So of course you think Stormtroopers are good. Nevermind. Just...nevermind...that explains so much...

Vladsimpaler wrote:If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.

Warseer has pretty much confirmed that creed will be 80 points.

*this section of the post deleted because it's not worth it, would probably get him banned, and generally isnt worth the trouble*

2. Details on Master of Ordnance: 30 points, can call in a S9 AP3 Ordnance shot with unlimited range if he doesn't move that turn but this blast scatters 2d6 on a "hit" & 3d6 on a arrow, deduct BS if within LoS

So what do you guys think: autoinclude or no?

I dont generally have much use for innaccurate blasts... but for 30 points it makes me think hard. Presumably the command squad he's attached to wouldnt be moving around much anyway.

And your credibility goes down even further. Eldrad is T4. He has a 3+ invulnerable save. He has 3 psychic powers. Some of which that allow reroll of failed saves, wounds, and hits, and he can use one of them twice. He is also pretty good in close combat.

If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.

Oh, is he? Huh, didn't know he had a non standard statline. Funny how he's still an independent character that runs to the front of a combat and gets punched in the face with a power fist if you use him frivolously. Eldrad isn't worth his cost in close combat, lysander is worth his cost. A 200 point hive tyrant is worth its cost. 30 boyz and a nob are worth their cost. Eldrad is a character that alters the play of the game in a non standard fashion, just as creed is.

If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.

Actually, anything thats 250 points should be a risk. Land raiders are a risk, abbadon is a risk, eldrad is a risk. Sorry that you want your 250 point investment to be some sort of immortal juggernaut of destruction but this is a game of chance and tactical and strategic decisions. Nothing should be a sure investment.

So of course you think Stormtroopers are good. Nevermind. Just...nevermind...

I've played space marines since the release of their newest codex. I've played tyranids since third edition. Orks too. Honestly, with as much as you probably think of my defense of the unit your willingness to dismiss my opinions based on the army I play shows you to be little less than a child crying about his new toy being different from the one he wanted.

Cry some more. You're not getting 150 point plasmatank and sentinels aren't dropping down to 20 points a piece. Learn to play better and you won't have to whine about not having freebie powerunits. Besides, I don't even understand how all that has to do with what I said. I want him to be a lot of points and worth the cost not just a lot of points. I've said it in all three of these posts. Can you read?

ph34r wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.

Warseer has pretty much confirmed that creed will be 80 points.

An 80 point upgrade? Or just 80 points?

ShumaGorath wrote:As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.

This is the Imperial Guard. The only character that should even come close to that is Yarrick, who has several editions of bad-assery behind him. What could Creed possibly have to justify a cost like that? An order to turn lasguns into lascannons?

Edit: 80 point upgrade.

Probably an upgrade.

In any case, we don't need Creed to be our big bruiser character Shummy. He's not anyway - he's a leader, not a fighter. And the reason we don't need Creed for this is because we've already got Yarrick!

T4 human w/FNP, Eternal Warrior and a Grimaldus/Living Saint-esque recovery from death. Yarrick is back, and is far improved from Yarrick-Lite in the current Codex.

And I couldn't be happier about that.

Gestalt wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.

This is the Imperial Guard. The only character that should even come close to that is Yarrick, who has several editions of bad-assery behind him. What could Creed possibly have to justify a cost like that? An order to turn lasguns into lascannons?

Maybe? A 24" ld 9/10 bubble, 4 orders a turn, special orders for fearless and furious charge, and maybe a few orbital bombardments (he does have a lot of ships at his command) could put him in the 200 point range. Maybe give him a smaller fearless or stubborn bubble too. Guy shouts a lot.

Probably an upgrade.

In any case, we don't need Creed to be our big bruiser character Shummy. He's not anyway - he's a leader, not a fighter. And the reason we don't need Creed for this is because we've already got Yarrick!

T4 human w/FNP, Eternal Warrior and a Grimaldus/Living Saint-esque recovery from death. Yarrick is back, and is far improved from Yarrick-Lite in the current Codex.

And I couldn't be happier about that.

I don't want creed to be a fighter, I (would have) wanted him to be a ~200 point leader of epic proportions. Someone who warrants that cost with what he does to your armies capability on the battlefield with his simple presence. And yeah, yarrick is quite a beast. He would have to be to lift that giant ridiculous crab hand.

Edit: 80 point upgrade.

How much is the base unit?

Valks went up to $58?!

Bah!

Oh GW...hiking prices on advance orders over the weekend..sneaky fethers...

ShumaGorath wrote:
Oh, is he? Huh, didn't know he had a non standard statline. Funny how he's still an independent character that runs to the front of a combat and gets punched in the face with a power fist if you use him frivolously. Eldrad isn't worth his cost in close combat, lysander is worth his cost. A 200 point hive tyrant is worth its cost. 30 boyz and a nob are worth their cost. Eldrad is a character that alters the play of the game in a non standard fashion, just as creed is.

And you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper...I said that he could hold his own if faced with a combat situation. No crap 30 boys are worth their cost. A 7 year old would get that. Granted Eldrad will lose against 30 boys, but then again, what doesn't? You obviously have no idea of how good Eldrad is. He allows you to reposition units via Divination. And trust me, though he may be used a lot, he's not often used for close combat unless absolutely necessary. I get the feeling that you've never played with or against Eldrad. Oh wait, you haven't. So you wouldn't know.

Actually, anything thats 250 points should be a risk. Land raiders are a risk, abbadon is a risk, eldrad is a risk. Sorry that you want your 250 point investment to be some sort of immortal juggernaut of destruction but this is a game of chance and tactical and strategic decisions. Nothing should be a sure investment.

Abaddon isn't a risk, he is a freaking monster. He annihilates, like, well...everything. He's a CC monster. He's worth his points. A Land Raider is tough to kill. You're killing your credibility more every time you speak. Creed is not even near the point cost of Abaddon. If I invest 250 points in something, I want it to at least do its job. I don't want it to just flail about. I agree that nothing should be a sure investment, but I at least want it to do its job at least a little, even if it gets killed. You're trying to make me look like a power player.

I've played space marines since the release of their newest codex. I've played tyranids since third edition. Orks too. Honestly, with as much as you probably think of my defense of the unit you're willingness to dismiss my opinions based on the army I play show you to be little less than a child crying about his new toy being different from the one he wanted.

No, I'm only saying it because I got the feeling the you've never, EVER played with the Guard. Yes it maybe a bit stupid to call you a Marine player, but still. If you've had no experience with them, please don't try to provide insight to things that you are not that well aware of.

Cry some more. You're not getting 150 point plasmatank and sentinels aren't dropping down to 20 points a piece. Learn to play better and you won't have to whine about not having freebie powerunits.

L2P NUB!!111 Is really childish. I never said I wanted an 150 point plasma tank. Nice strawman argument anyway. An 'A' for effort.

You try your very hardest to make me look like a power player, and that really pisses me off.

DebonaireToast wrote:Valks went up to $58?!

Bah!

Oh GW...hiking prices on advance orders over the weekend..sneaky fethers...

I see you're not using firefox!

Death By Monkeys wrote:
Frankly, the closest I've come to a build list so far is:

1x CHQ w/ 3x Melta in a Chimera
2x Vet Squad w/ 3x Melta in Chimeras
3x LRBTs (1 w/ Knight Commander Pask)
3x LRBTs
3x LRBTs

Looks like about an 1850 point list? I'm thinking of something roughly like:

Company HQ with meltaguns, advisor that gives +1 to reserve rolls
6 vet squads with meltaguns
mix of 9 valks(lascannon, multiple rocket launchers) and vendettas

I'd like 9 vendettas, but might cause issues against infantry heavy lists. The valks with multiple rocket launchers, though, should do fairly well against them. Maybe 2 vendettas and 1 valk per squadron to ensure some redundancy. Don't have my rulebook handy, but if the "scout" rule allows outflanking for personnel onboard, too, it could be nasty, which is why I would include the advisor.

And you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper...I said that he could hold his own. No crap 30 boys are worth their cost. A 7 year old would get that. You obviously have no idea of how good Eldrad is. He allows you to reposition units via Divination. And trust me, though he may be used a lot, he's not often used for close combat unless absolutely necessary. I get the feeling that you've never played with or against Eldrad. Oh wait, you haven't. So you wouldn't know.

Abaddon isn't a risk, he is a freaking monster. He annihilates, like, well...everything. He's a CC monster. He's worth his points. A Land Raider is tough to kill. You're killing your credibility more every time you speak. Creed is not even near the point cost of Abaddon. If I invest 250 points in something, I want it to at least do its job. I don't want it to just flail about. I agree that nothing should be a sure investment, but I at least want it to do its job at least a little, even if it gets killed. You're trying to make me look like a power player.

And people say I troll.... Abbadon is a beast that is quite difficult to make worthwhile. It's harder to kill 250 points worth of units with him then it seems. He's not mobile, a rhino will just get shot, and a land raider is a 250 point delivery system for a 250 point brick. There goes a fourth of your army in two models that can easily be tarpitted. And yes, I've played eldrad. How does my saying that he's meh in close combat but fantastic for what he does to the course of the game infer that I don't know about his special abilities?

Do you just read every other word I write or something? And no, I'm not trying to make you look like a power player I'm telling you you're making no sense.

No, I'm only saying it because I got the feeling the you've never, EVER played with the Guard. Yes it maybe a bit stupid to call you a Marine player, but still. If you've had no experience with them, please don't try to provide insight to things that you are not that well aware of.

Uhuh. Yup. Sure. Yeah. For reference guard are the single most common army type I play. Not that you'll likely believe that. You're sort of in your own world at this point.

L2P NUB!!111 Is really childish. I never said I wanted an 150 point plasma tank. Nice strawman argument anyway. An 'A' for effort.

Yeah, I didn't really need the strawman in there. I mean sometimes maybe, but not to argue with what your saying.

You tried to make me look like a power player, and that really pisses me off.

No, I'm saying your posting drunk. Which is dangerous because you lose sight of your point and just start shouting at people.




What does any of this have to do with my wanting creed to be a 200+ point leader of legendary ability? How does my wanting him to be a supercharacter that is worth his points warrant all this nerdrage? HBMC understood what I was saying, and the two of us usually communicate like there some sort of creepy funhouse window between the two of us.

Hmmm, my current build is looking to have 3 Vets w/ Meltas in Vendettas and one whole platoon squad in Chimeras. That should secure some objectives :p

I'm going to defend ShumaGorath here Vlad so listen carefully.

He ISN'T saying that Creed is as good as Eldrad
He ISN'T saying that Creed SHOULD cost 250pts now because he is as good as Eldrad or Abaddon
He ISN'T saying that under the current rules Creed should be about 200pts

what he IS saying is

Guard DESERVE an epically heroic character who costs 200pts+
Guard DESERVE a character that is as good as Eldrad i.e. he isn't a close combat monster but like Eldrad he has the capacity to vastly improve the army
Guard DESERVE a character on roughly the same game changing power level as Eldrad for about the same cost as Eldrad.

He THINKS Creed would be a good candidate to BECOME that character. Not that he is now, but that Shuma would like him to become so.


Which IMHO is perfectly reasonable but not really that fluffy. Guard are ordinary guys, they don't get to have epic heroes on the scale of Eldrad, even commander types. I think the current level of Creed is quite reasonable. He's an improvement but not mandatory like Eldrad is.

Which IMHO is perfectly reasonable but not really that fluffy. Guard are ordinary guys, they don't get to have epic heroes on the scale of Eldrad, even commander types. I think the current level of Creed is quite reasonable. He's an improvement but not mandatory like Eldrad is.

He is the single most important imperial commander in the galaxy. The cadian gate is basically a constant war and has been for thousands of years. The leader of that place has to be something special, though I can understand not wanting a simple human to be up there with characters like calgar or abbadon.

Also thanks for helping clarify!

If we have a 250pt guard leader, it would probably have to do things like give everyone infilitrate or some other dramatic army-wide change to make it worth it. It would then be a "mandatory special character" for a entire army type and HBMC would be out for blood, since Guard armies shouldn't be built around a single bloody person.

A special character is only mandatory if its too good for its cost. Thats poor design, it has nothing to do with the concept itself. The reason you see eldrad everywhere is because he's too good for his points(in my opinion), regular farseers are pointless by comparison.

Personally, I like where they are going with C&K.

Not too expensive, but have some (what appears to be) nice *commander* abilities.


I am looking forward to seeing what our other SC exactly do.

He could simply allow the player to choose the mission. Get first turn and place one more objective than the opponent. Also something like taking Ogryn, ST or something similar as troops. Stats could remain the same. That would be worth 250pts for many people with out improving his stats. If it is balanced or fair is another story altogether.

I am not sure a legendary human commander can be represented well in 40k. The strength of these men would be from charisma, tactics, influence and probably massed troops at their beck and call. Cant really give the guard player and extra 500pts or make them play better. Easier to add a marine special character that feels legendary than a human with great tactics and make it feel right. I would love if it were true but sadly I do not see this happening. I love my guard but our characters will probably always be non epic feeling as it is easier to make them "neat" with out being all that special. This will probably always keep us around the 60 to 125pt category and curse Eldrad and Calagar when the punks are not looking.


Just my 2 cents...

Everyone check outside for the 4 horsemen, because Shummy's actually right here.

*hushed gasps from the penut gallery - Malfred faints*

Guard deserve some sort of 'big' character. Now as brave Sir Robin clarified, this doesn't mean the Guard 'big' character is an equal to Failbaddon, or Pimp Master Calgar or even Farseer Ubiquitous. It just means someone who has the same sort of effect on a Guard army, but on a comparable (not equal) level.

And I can even see what he's saying about Creed being that guy. Where Shummy and I differ (or, where one of the areas where Shummy and I differ) is that I think that 'big' character should be Yarrick, 'cause he's way cooler than Creed. But that's my personal bias showing through there - I've always liked Yarrick, and have fond memories of him from 2nd Ed. Creed, to me, has always been the guy who got to the quartermaster's office after everyone else and had to settle for the Size Ogryn jacket.

I want Solar Macharius back. :(

(JohnHwangDD)

There's always Apocalypse and 'Counts As'!!!!

(/JohnHwangDD)

If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good. The Master of Ordnance, too, feels dubious. You pretty much have to put him in LOS of his intended target to have even a statistical chance of hitting, and that puts his entire squad at risk of being plinked off (considering the value of Orders, I don't see anyone NOT trying to kill your command squads if they get the chance).

30 points for a basilisk shot that scatters a lot seems okay to me. After all, thats less than 1/4 the cost of a basilisk, and can still deliver the same punch, just not exactly where you want it.

Here's a timeline showing my enthusiasm regarding Impetial Guard.

1995: 20%. I play lots and lots of Necromunda and have hundreds of figures that could go in an IG army, but I'm not interested in 2E 40k anymore as it's not very playable and Necro is so good.
1999: 0%. I retool my large Eldar army for 3rd ed.
2000: 50%. I spy an entry at the back of Codex Armageddon and my head cogs start turning. A Necromundan PDF militia! Yes!
2001: 100%. Army is finished to the point of being playable. Lots of conversions, lots of necromunda figures bought, about half painted. Greenstuff conversions on Catachans to turn them into Orlocks. I remember the trial assault rules being rather good for them somehow but don't remember why. Stand and shoot or something like that.
2002: 0%. I stop playing Warhammers completely. I aquire thousands of magic: the gathering cards.
2004: 80%. I give all my 40k stuff to a friend to sell on ebay for me. He sells off my Ork army and my Empire army. He tells me we should have one more game "for old time's sake". I pull out the guard... the rest is history. (I then painted up a new space marine army)
2005: 100% I find out there's a new Guard codex and try and try to make my old army work. Lots of converting models to have Lasguns.
2006: 20% After a few games of explaining "These Heavy Stubbers are Autocannons, this heavy Plasma Gun is a regular Plasma Gun, all these guys with autoguns have lasguns, oh that gun is a wierd looking heavy stubber, so autocannon..this is a really old heavy bolter, from Space Crusade, no really, that's what they looked like.." etc etc I give up.
2007: 0% I sell off half the army (everything that wasn't painted).
2008: 30% I pull out all the Guard models for a big Apocalypse game. I try to work out the list again this time with like Witchhunters or something and give up again.
January 2009: 80% I hear there's a new codex and start getting excited. I decide to abandon the old PDF Militia and start a new army. Cadian models, in Dark Angels colours, to match. This time I'll paint them well. They will be my new Tournament army for 2010 (2008 was Dark Angels, 2009 is Daemons)
February 2009: 110% I am absolutely desperate for new information. I've somehow aquired a couple of new heavy weapon teams, how did that happen. I want to base them up (planning to use seperate 25mm's as usual) but want to wait just in case something silly has been done like making double basing compulsory. I reload Dakka and WargamerAU every 10 minutes looking for rumours. I even go to Warseer. I plan the fluff, I plan the paint scheme. I plan the 6000 point Apocalypse combined force with my Dark Angels.
Three Weeks Ago: 80% French list is posted. Hmm, weapon teams have to be doubled up, annoying, good thing I held off. The Punisher is badly designed. AP3 Hellguns, huh? They can be my litmus, if Stormtroopers are 8 points with those stats, the codex will probably be balanced.
Two Weeks Ago: 10% Point cost of Stormtroopers revealed. My interest drops like a stone. Just like that. The more details revealed, the more I dislike. This codex was going to be Guard's savoir, their new codex to bring them up to competitiveness. But 16 point Stormtroopers! How can this be?
One Week Ago: 0% Hey, War of the Ring looks pretty cool, I have an Elf army kicking around. I'll paint that instead.
Right Now: 20% I think I might be able to kludge together something fun with lots and lots of tanks. I'll wait until after the 3 month impulse buy/sell window and grab them cheap second hand. Maybe. After I've finished painting the Elves. And possibly a Moria army. Today in GW I can't help but notice the empty shelf space where once Cadians sat, removed to be "repackaged", and sigh wistfully.

Agamemnon2 wrote:If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good. The Master of Ordnance, too, feels dubious. You pretty much have to put him in LOS of his intended target to have even a statistical chance of hitting, and that puts his entire squad at risk of being plinked off (considering the value of Orders, I don't see anyone NOT trying to kill your command squads if they get the chance).

i'm going to wager we will be seeing lots of CHQ's sitting in the back of chimera's barking orders at people and providing LoS for the MoO (hehe moooooo) in a handy armor 12 cover saved can.

If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good.

If you are going el'cheapo with a base command squad, then ya no way. But lets say you've got the standard and have also added extra bodies like advisors and rumored bodyguards. Then ya 30 points doesn't seem so bad to keep that investment around for as long as possible.

But I guess for a few points more you can get a chimera 'force field' instead.