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tomguycot wrote:At least the speacial weapons squads can hop in someone else's Chimera without penalty unlike the poor heavy weapons squads that are apparently stranded out in the open with no ride (and will lose a precious turn of shooting if they decide to get into one) and will forever be walking onto the table from reserves in missions that use them.

Valkyries are not dedicated transports. Heavy weapons teams can start the game in them. Don't ask me why you'd want them to.

lol, don't ask me why you'd bother with HWS.

You're better off getting a Griffin or a Russ than any single HWS.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So if a book is badly written... I shouldn't blame the person who's name is on it? Then who should be blame? Jervis is a good one to start with, but he didn't write it - Arby did. That's not to say it wasn't a collaborative effort, I'm sure it was, but his name is on it, he shold be held accountable for both the good and the bad.

As for nicknames, please. I call Jervis the Sultan of Bland, and when Pete Haines was still around I called him Page 41.

All I'm saying is there is more to writing a codex then the Army list. If the fluff sucks, it's probably the writers fault, if the army list sucks, it's probably not the writer's fault but the studio's fault. Also, to know if a book is badly written, I would hope you have read it first. Making assumptions based on rumors you don't like, when you do not have the full picture, casts you in negative light, at least in my eyes. I've followed your posts a long time and I normally enjoy reading what you have to say. I look forward to enjoying what you have to say in the future, but currently I don't want to read you lambasting a book that's not out and blaming a writer that mostly was not responsible. It's half cocked and unfair for both the book and anyone that reads this thread. After the book(or PDF) has been out and I read your Cover to Cover review, I hope you lay into anything that's weaksauce, but blasting at a new writter for an Army list that others in the studio probably had huge inpact on seems weak. I know you and Jervis are homeboyz and all but really are you soooooo angry that you have to blast someone you don't know, don't know what they did, just because you know there name?
I guess we all need hobbies, mine is playing 40K, you should join me, it's fun.

Hmm...

If the rumoured values/etc are true, here's a potential list:

1 Primaris Psyker 70

1 Infantry Platoon 180
Platoon Command w. 4 Flamers
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon

1 Veterans 90
2 Meltaguns

2 Vendettas 260

2 Vendettas 260

2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks 340
Heavy Bolter sponsons

2 Hydras 150

2 Griffons 150

1500


The squads all take to the skies in Vendettas, basically just the cheapest way to make them scoring (I see why Veterans are not 5-10 any more!). The equipment is mostly an after thought. The Priamris Psyker is just there 'cause he's an IC so I can hide him in a vendetta without stopping it scoring.

The Russes give the Hydras a cover save, and the Griffons hide behind them both, against the table edge of quarter. The Vendettas use their huge bases as a buffer stopping the russes from getting assaulted. Then in later turns they move out onto objectives. In a Kill Points game you might start the infantry platoon on hte table for a couple extra autocannon shots, but it's probably better to hide them (so I should probably leave them naked and throw HB's on the valks or something, oh well).

This list scales up very well pretty much geometrically as far as 2250. I'm not saying it will be the new power list, but it's a basis to work from and shows what the new guard is capable of. It does all hinge on the the Vendetta's transport capacity not being a typo (seems a bit out of left field).

There's also this version, a complete airforce:

1 Primaris Psyker 70

1 Infantry Platoon 345
Platoon Command w. 4 Flamers
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Special Weapon Squad w. 3 Flamers

1 Veterans 100
3 Meltaguns

3 Vendettas 420
Heavy Bolter sponsons

2 Vendettas 280
Heavy Bolter sponsons

2 Vendettas 280
Heavy Bolter sponsons

Total: 1500

This one scales to 1850 OK and gets shakey after that.
Could also work as a theme list with only veterans in the vendettas.

I can't even begin to fathom why these things are 0-3. Imagine if Falcons were 1-3!

Scottywan82 wrote:lol, don't ask me why you'd bother with HWS.

You're better off getting a Griffin or a Russ than any single HWS.

Or - a Vendetta!

NinjaRay wrote:I guess we all need hobbies, mine is playing 40K, you should join me, it's fun.

*glares*

With statements like that mate, you ain't worth responding to... Although I will say you are correct that there's more to a Codex than just the list. But we're discussing the list. And if the fluff is ok and the list is bad what happens then? Do the players 'break even'? We ignore the bad because the good cancels it out? No. If it's a bad list then it's a bad list, and we'll say as much.

BYE

Clever.

See? This is karma for saying that the more crazy people that stab me with words the better in pm! Your slight embarrassment is my total victory!

All I said was the more the merrier. How you choose to interpret that is up to you.

Raxmei wrote:Valkyries are not dedicated transports. Heavy weapons teams can start the game in them. Don't ask me why you'd want them to.

Agreed ,I can't think of why you would want a heavy weapon team in a valkyrie either. The only reason I was interested in a chimera is because of the 5 firepoints.

The only way I could see using the heavy weapons teams is if they had an AV 12 shell to mitigate the fact that they are basically overpriced 'instant death' waiting to happen.

Then, top it all off with the fact that you can't give 'em a vox either. They're probably the one unit in the book that I'd actually like to give a vox to so of course it isn't an option. In fact, the only use I can see for the voxes in this book would be if you are planning on 'blobbing' your platoons you could maybe give one squad a vox and let the whole 50 man platoon benefit from it. That might not be terrible. Otherwise they are just as big of a point sink as they are now.

Well, I think it will be smart to give one Infantry Squad per platoon a Commissar and a Vox. So if you decide to make a large squad, you they wont run or be swept, and you can give them orders (while keeping your command squads safely away).


All I know is in a Dawn of War mission, I look forward to starting the game with over 100 bodies on the table

H.B.M.C. wrote:All I said was the more the merrier. How you choose to interpret that is up to you.

Quick q, why did you call Pete Haines pg 41?

However, my favorite combo in this entire book is going to be the Creed+10 Rough Riders. Don't know why, he just is going to be.

I mean seriously, 20 Str 6 I6 power weapon attacks. Come on. I seriously doubt that most power/terminator armored units can withstand that. Plus they can outflank because Creed gives out Scout...whee!

Of course, after the initial charge they're as good as dead, but oh it's so worth it.

People are posting all sorts of lists with several vendettas, 4+ Leman Russ, and almost no infantry, <6 squads. I don't think they are going to carry the army like some seem to be thinking.

Heh. An IG army with nine squads or less can take the field entirely in flyers. 1170 plus upgrades on fast attack, then the rest in troops. That's a little like drop troops, air assault instead of airborne.

For the record, I don't plan on fielding an army remotely like this. The 1500 army I have planned has two medium size platoons, groundpounding fast attack, some chimeras and three single vehicle heavy support slots.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:All I said was the more the merrier. How you choose to interpret that is up to you.

Quick q, why did you call Pete Haines pg 41?

However, my favorite combo in this entire book is going to be the Creed+10 Rough Riders. Don't know why, he just is going to be.

I mean seriously, 20 Str 6 I6 power weapon attacks. Come on. I seriously doubt that most power/terminator armored units can withstand that. Plus they can outflank because Creed gives out Scout...whee!

Of course, after the initial charge they're as good as dead, but oh it's so worth it.

They should be able to make their points back, even against Assault Termies (although just barely).

21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 8.75 wounds ( read, dead squad of MEQ ), 5.83 dead Termines, 2.91 dead AssTermines.

I probably would not toss them at a squad of AssTermines (unless I had to), but against pretty much anything else, they will cause some hurt

And lets not forget, they have frag grenades hehe

tomguycot wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Valkyries are not dedicated transports. Heavy weapons teams can start the game in them. Don't ask me why you'd want them to.

Agreed ,I can't think of why you would want a heavy weapon team in a valkyrie either. The only reason I was interested in a chimera is because of the 5 firepoints.

It's not that terrible of an idea IMO, keep in mind you can use the scout move to deploy the heavy weapon team and still fire on the first turn. I could see the advantage of moving them up the flanks like that. Make a 24" rush with the Valk/Vendetta, fly over some woods and dump the heavy weapon team in, you will have to make a dangerous terrain test (I assume only one, and that the one for disembarking over 12" and deepstriking into difficult terrain aren't cumulative), because the team is now a single model with 2 wounds, you won't lose any models to those tests and they are ready to open fire turn 1.

Of course, being up on the flank is only really significant if you have anti tank weapons, and if that's the case you may as well just rush the vendetta up empty and use it to hit the tank's side/rear armour.


On a side note, I see alot of people saying the vendetta has to "stay still" to make use of it's triple twin linked lascannons, I'm not sure if it's hyperbole or they don't know fast vehicle rules, and maybe it's been pointed out, but they can still move 6" a turn and unload all 3.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Quick q, why did you call Pete Haines pg 41?

Because the man made his own personal army Uber in the Real Chaos Codex. What army? Iron Warriors. And what page of the Real Chaos Codex are they on? Yep, you guessed it, Page 41...

(As I haven't looked at the Real Chaos Codex in a while, if I'm wrong about the page reference, Page 41 could be the Thousand Sons section, which he totally Tzscrewed over with his Tzcrap Tzrules, but I doubt it)

H.B.M.C. wrote:I wouldn't call a min-maxed out tha whazoo list 'fun', Reecius. 9 Vendys and 9 Griffons looks decidedly dull to me, no matter how 'effective' it may be.

Hey brother, one man's fun is another man's getting reamed by the might of the Imperium!

I would never actually build that list for a lot of reasons, it's just fun to play make believ, I mean that is what internet land is for, right?

In all honesty, my list will hardly change upon codex release, jus tno more airborne infantry, which is annoying. But my 3 10 man Vet squads are loving life with the points decrease. I had them all set up at 10 men with 3 plasma and a las cannon. Actually, with plasma going up they are slightly more costly, but oh well, they are still very effective.

I am stoked on the info we have, guard are going to have hundreds of different lists now, which is fantastic.

Just the dang Ogryns. All they need is a power weapon or fist for the Bone ead. The way they are now, they will lose through combat res to a good assault unit and get run down. A shame really.

Well, mine will just have to be a counts as GKT squad.

Codex: any army with 2 wounds has got a lot going for it

Quick question: does using the Chimera's sunroof still make it open-topped?

Raxmei wrote:Quick question: does using the Chimera's sunroof still make it open-topped?

Everyone who is saying anything, is saying no

Quick question HBMC, what is the "Real Chaos Codex" you speak of?


-A.

The one before the current pile of gak.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

middle wrote:HB can be a Lascannon for 15.

I'd like everyone to note that this is a 5 point increase on the cost of a Hull Lascannon. Right now, Hull weapons on a Russ are +5 for an HB, +15 for a Lascannon. With the new 'Dex HB's come as standard, so the +15 is really a +20 from no weapon.

middle wrote:Sponson HB/HF for 20. MM for 30. PC for 40 ( All variants. Means Standard Russ can have PC / MM ). SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Entire squadron: Camo netting for 20.

Love to know what mythical magical land 2 BS3 Plasma Cannons are worth 40-fething-points.

Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

Secondly the PC is priced to dissuade players from using it, as 2 PC sponsoons is far far superior (BS3 PC "hits" as often as any other Scatter weapon, 1 in 3), If it were priced "reasonably" you'd never ever see a Russ without them.


Lastly, I wonder how long it will take people to realize that Vendetta Spamming isn't nessecary. And that a HWS can be used effectively. watch and wait.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm taking game design courses right now (both board/card/and computer) and you would be amazed how easy it is to make bi polar design decisions. Not for me of course, I tend to edge on too little variation, but some people just don't understand how to balance a game system. Often times these people are the wacky artsy types that would want to make a game like FATAL (or besm, fatals cousin).

Yowza. You do BESM a grave injustice to compare it with FATAL. Granted, I don't know it, but it cannot be as bad as the game which has a separate chart for Fist Circumference.

augfubuoy wrote:Quick question HBMC, what is the "Real Chaos Codex" you speak of?


-A.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The one before the current pile of gak.

QFT.

I would love to pull out my Chaos Army again and actually play with it. I just couldnt justify re-buying almost 2/3rds my army when the new dex came out. Wouldnt of been so bad... if it didnt loose all the fluff goodness and flavor.... not to mention its fangs.

strange_eric wrote:Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

The theory would go, Assuming that in the old codex a Leman Russ costs X points, it can have a 5 pt bolter(X+5 total), or a 15 point lascannon(X+15 total), as you can see, there is a point difference of 10 points.

With the new Leman Russ(cost Y base), it includes a bolter, so the math would be Y = X+5, but then it pays 15 points on top of this for a lascannon, Y = X+5+15 : Y = X+20, It's a 15 point upgrade to the modern leman russ, but is equivalent to paying 20 points on the older one.

I don't know if that's as clear as I think it is, but rest assured his comment does make sense, although I think it's a silly thing to express, because right now a hull lascannon on a leman russ is a fancy pole if it moves at all. But that's just my opinion.

I have to come in here... the vendetta freakout is a little bit much. Let me put out some comparable cost comparisons and a note on the limitations of squadrons.

First and foremost. Don't worry about 9 vendettas. a squad of 3 will put 6.75 lascannon hits on something for 390 points. If that 'something' is a vehicle that isn't squadroned, it can only die once. If that unit is not a vehicle, it'll have a cover save, and you just witnessed an impressive waste of 390 points. Btw, those 6.75 hits go into a land raider that popped smoke... you only end up with 1.12 glances/pens.

If you face 9 vendettas, then your vehicles that aren't under a KFF or smoke launchers are boned. But you are only facing 600 points of army after all those lascannons have flashed in the pan.

heres something you can get for 395

3x3 lascannon HWS 315
company command 50
platoon command 30

4 out of 5 of these squads are scoring units. 6 of these lascannons are twin-linked when the unit passes its leadership test (55% of the time) and 3 of these lascannons are strength 10. The whole thing will have a 4+ cover save. And the three HWS can each fire at a different unit.

I'll do you one better. Add this guy...

commissar lord 70

make sure he is within 6" of the HWS and now you have a 91% chance to pass orders. So thats the same 9 lascannons, as troops, that can split their fire, or fire sequentially (to see if the first three lascannons killed the target) that don't run from shooting, that don't shut off on crew shaken results, and exist as three seperate entities for targeting. Costs 75 more points, but since those units are scoring you aren't taking away from the core of your list.


How about this unit.

10x veterans 3x meltaguns 100 points
chimera 55

Only 2 hits instead of 2.25. Only 12" range, but brings an additional multi-laser and heavy bolter (which obviously can fire at a seperate target), at 6" range the 2 meltagun hits yield more destroyed results than the vendetta's lascannons, and its a troop choice... for 25 more points.



I didn't put these units up here to say that the vendetta isn't good. What I'm pointing out is that there are other just as viable ways of getting tank kill into your list.

If you want to have infantry platoons supported by tanks and artillery, you can certainly use HWS to kill stuff from range. If you've got tons of troops, you're probably taking company command squads and aura producers like the commissar lord anyway. He really makes those orders go off.

If you want to be mechanized and don't feel like calling in the navy, you can certainly accomplish your hard target tank kill with veterans in chimeras, and keep your heavy support killing infantry.


Can we look at a properly equipped valkyrie again before we throw it away? Heres how i'd build mine.

multilaser, multiple missile pods, HB doors 140

ok 10 points more than the vendetta, but here is what you get. Move 6" fire 6 heavy bolters, 3 multi-lasers, and 2 LARGE blast markers.
Or move 12" fire 3 multi-laser shots and still get 2 large blast markers. Creative use of the tall flight stand and out-flank can mitigate cover saves taken on those large blasts. If you want to save 10 points you can drop those door gunners, then you can fire at full effectiveness after deepstriking or moving 12" every turn. Comparing this vehicle to the vendetta is impossible.

You'll say you can get infantry kill in other slots. I'll say I can get tank kill in other slots. The point is, both the valkyrie and the vendetta are upgunned, expensive and effective fast transports, when properly equipped. Which you choose has more to do with what your list is missing, and less to do with which one is a 'no-brainer'

Its fun to try and rip codexes apart. But in this particular case, the vendetta, although very usable and very cool, is not going to be the only show in town.

strange_eric wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

middle wrote:HB can be a Lascannon for 15.

I'd like everyone to note that this is a 5 point increase on the cost of a Hull Lascannon. Right now, Hull weapons on a Russ are +5 for an HB, +15 for a Lascannon. With the new 'Dex HB's come as standard, so the +15 is really a +20 from no weapon.

Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

It's not complicated math.

Current IG Codex:
A LRBT costs 140 pts, with a mandatory hull-mounted weapon: HB @ +5 pts, LC @ +15 pts. Total cost: 145 or 155 pts; there is a 10 pt difference between the two.

New IG Codex:
A LRBT comes with the hull-mounted HB. Buying the LC costs an additional +15 pts. The spread between a HB LRBT and a LC LRBT is now 15 points.

Secondly the PC is priced to dissuade players from using it, as 2 PC sponsoons is far far superior (BS3 PC "hits" as often as any other Scatter weapon, 1 in 3), If it were priced "reasonably" you'd never ever see a Russ without them.

This is stupid game design. They have control over the legal options. If they don't want a standard Russ to have PC sponsons, they can write it that way. (And, in fact, they have been for several decades now.)

Points aren't supposed to be punitive; they are supposed to have some relation to the actual in-game value of the option.

Lastly, I wonder how long it will take people to realize that Vendetta Spamming isn't nessecary. And that a HWS can be used effectively. watch and wait.

Please don't confuse "effective" with "optimal." HWSs may be effective; they don't appear to be optimal.