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strange_eric wrote:Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

Janthkin covered it better than I did, but to put my own spin on it:

Lern too math!!!2

Old Codex - Heavy Bolter +5 or Lascannon +15 (145 or 155)
New Codex - Heavy Bolter standard, upgrade to Lascannon still +15 (150 or 165)
Therefore - New Lascannon more expensive.

Enough straw for ya?

Secondly the PC is priced to dissuade players from using it, as 2 PC sponsoons is far far superior (BS3 PC "hits" as often as any other Scatter weapon, 1 in 3), If it were priced "reasonably" you'd never ever see a Russ without them.

If you truly believe that... wow...

Drunkspleen wrote:I don't know if that's as clear as I think it is, but rest assured his comment does make sense, although I think it's a silly thing to express, because right now a hull lascannon on a leman russ is a fancy pole if it moves at all. But that's just my opinion.

Yes but they're already put the cost of the tank up, so why make something more expensive just because now we get to use it? It wasn't worth its points before because, as you said, it was a fancy pole that waggled - it didn't do anything. But now it is worth its points... and Arby puts the cost up. My only solace is the fact that it is at least consistent with the rest of the pricing in the Codex. The Lascannon is 20 points in the Guard, therefore a Lascannon replacing a HB for +15 means the HB is worth 5 (or should be... or something). Problem lies in the fact that if you base weapon points costs on Ballistic Skill you run into odd situations where a Lascannon is somehow worth 20 points on an AV14 vehicle, an AV10 Open-Topped Walker and a T3 W2 Sv5+ model... when really their cost should be based on the platform the weapon lies on (less on the weaker things, more on the tougher things).

Well, a hull lascannon will be fire *much* more frequently than it is currently... Now granted on a LRBT you may just be firing the aforementioned lascannon at a MEQ... but still

Honestly, LRDemolisher w/ a hull Lascannon makes for a pretty good tankhunter/termi killer. At least (unlike the Vanquisher) it can still drop pie.

I don't get the problem with "power builds".
Isn't there always something like this in every new Codex?

Eldar have incredibly powerful Harlequins and tanks.

Orks have really mean cheap infantry, but no one even touches Looted Wagons and Flash Gitz in a competive environment.

I'm sure there's more if we look for it....


Still, I don't really care that much if Ogryn's are overpriced and don't work well with any other kind of IG unit. I still want them. Ogryns are cool. They'll look cool in my Nurgle-themed traitor guard army and I'm sure I'll find a way to make them fit into an airborne division.

All of the above does not mean, that I don't enjoy H.B.M.C. rants.

Here's a few questions:
Are CHQ indeed 50 and PHQ 30?
Can we take multiple CHQs?
Is Creed an upgrade to a CHQ? +80 or 90 points on top of the 50?
EDIT: And are bodyguards seriously 30 points each?

Agamemnon2 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm taking game design courses right now (both board/card/and computer) and you would be amazed how easy it is to make bi polar design decisions. Not for me of course, I tend to edge on too little variation, but some people just don't understand how to balance a game system. Often times these people are the wacky artsy types that would want to make a game like FATAL (or besm, fatals cousin).

Yowza. You do BESM a grave injustice to compare it with FATAL. Granted, I don't know it, but it cannot be as bad as the game which has a separate chart for Fist Circumference.

BESM = Big Eyes, Small Mouth. It's the Anime RPG. It's worse than co-starring in a donkey show.

The IG won't come out as the stand alone top army in tournaments, but they will join the rocks-papper-scissors circle at the top tables. Certain IG builds have the capability oif taking on most of the top lists and coming out ahead more often than not. There are IG builds that beat LR spam, Ork Horde, and Lash Chaos. There is no one IG build that can do it all. It will be difficult to metagame against the IG because of all there possible builds.

Now some people might say this is a weakness of the codex that one list can't 'rule them all', but I don't think so. It will turn the IG into a wild card which the other top lists will have to hope they can avoid during a tournament. The IG codex is beginning to spread the wealth around and taking away 1-2 top builds in favor of many more possibilities. I hope this trend continues with the other new army releases, but in reality the IG variety is what has done this more so than any devious plan from the top.

Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

Ivan: Psyker battle squads are just an elites choice, so yarp, you can run 3.

NinjaRay wrote:but nothing says he's infallible or not missing some small details that could make all the difference in the world.

Completely true. I'm writing what I saw. I'm not saying I saw everything. The staffer gave me some GW paper and a GW pen and said it Would be fine to make notes on anything that could be useful in my army. My army is guard and everything is useful to me. Hey if I missed something i'm sorry.

I wouldn't call them rumours, but if you want it word for word then buy the dex and don't read this. I'm just helping the folks who won't be getting their previews for two weeks or so. You want rumours, go to warseer. Multimelta sentinels, ha!

It's public knowledge over here and it should be public knowledge over there if you haven't got yours yet.

ikew: Straken replaces the Company Comander, as does Creed. Al'rahem and Chenkov replace Platoon commanders.

tomguycot : SWS and HWS may not have a vox. I presume this is to tone down making your opponent re-roll cover saves from 3 demo charges and 3 lascannons by not giving the orders re-rolls.. They may still be given ordes normally though so it's not out of the window. I'm thinking thatt one Platoon Commander can babysit some HWS while the other Platoon Commander can run round with the inf.

ph34r: CCS is 50. PCS is 30.

No limits on the CCS. You do not have to have one and you may have two. You can have Yarrick and a Commissar lord lead an army if you like.

With creed and Straken you pay their points on top of the 50 for the CCS. If you call it 7 points a vet then thats an extra 22 points on top of Creeds 90. Oh so cheap.

Bodyguards are 15 each and you may have 2 in each CCS. I have a feeling Nork replaces one if not both if you have bought any ( so you just wouldn't ).

frgsinwntr wrote:Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

While no doubt possible, I probably wouldn't invest in the extra russes because I have a strong feeling that the Witch Hunters gets redone, they'll take away the whole allies rule.

If Chaos Marines can't call in Chaos Daemons, I doubt Inquisition will be able to call in Marines and IG anymore. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

Ubik Lives wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

While no doubt possible, I probably wouldn't invest in the extra russes because I have a strong feeling that the Witch Hunters gets redone, they'll take away the whole allies rule.

If Chaos Marines can't call in Chaos Daemons, I doubt Inquisition will be able to call in Marines and IG anymore. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

I agree, but I know the WH and DH codices will be the last ones on the table for revision. The WH one would require a whole new line of minis... remember the sisters metal models are from like the late 80's...

even if I don't have them personally... I have the Russes I can borrow

middle, your suggestion that an army could be lead by Yarrick and a Commisar Lord has struck my fancy, fostering a new line of questions.

Is Yarrick still fearless or just stubborn? I would imagine he's just stubborn now, but does that mean that he will now carry out summary executions? Or does he lead any unit he joins, giving them his Ld right off the bat (and avoiding any execution messiness)?

Here's another question about the HQ section:
Does the Commisar Lord carry out summary executions?
Can he have a bodyguard?
Can his Bodyguard get a Melta?

I think some of you know where I'm going with this

Anung Un Rama wrote:Does the Commisar Lord carry out summary executions?
Can he have a bodyguard?
Can his Bodyguard get a Melta?

I think some of you know where I'm going with this

You want to execute your own Meltagunners?

BoxANT wrote:Well, a hull lascannon will be fire *much* more frequently than it is currently... Now granted on a LRBT you may just be firing the aforementioned lascannon at a MEQ... but still

Honestly, LRDemolisher w/ a hull Lascannon makes for a pretty good tankhunter/termi killer. At least (unlike the Vanquisher) it can still drop pie.

Actually, this observation right here justifies the +5 points on the lascannon for the LRBT, I believe.

Previously, you payed 15 points for a lascannon that you hoped you would never have to fire during the game (if you were firing it, odds are the battle cannon was gone).

Now, you pay 20 points for a lascannon that can fire even when you fire the battle cannon. I think this increase in cost for the lascannon is a reflection of the increased in game utility of taking that option.

I'm following the threads for couple of months now, and I see some children in the playground.
Some of you guys are rant around wanting this and that.
I like to play so I play if I loose, don't care. Maybe you should play more with your friends just for the fun. And rant less.
Sometimes you look like in my language : "Csapkodja magát a földhöz" = Dropping yourself to ground several times. We use this to little children being illogical and stubborn.
This goes to the usual suspects.

ikew wrote:middle, your suggestion that an army could be lead by Yarrick and a Commisar Lord has struck my fancy, fostering a new line of questions.

Is Yarrick still fearless or just stubborn? I would imagine he's just stubborn now, but does that mean that he will now carry out summary executions? Or does he lead any unit he joins, giving them his Ld right off the bat (and avoiding any execution messiness)?

Yarrick and his unit are fearless, all units within 12" of Yarrick are stubborn. Also, on the turn Yarrick and his unit charges, they get to re-roll missed hits (like a SM Chaplain)

Also, when Yarrick loses his last wound, he doesn't die, you place him on his side. At the start of his next turn, on a D6 roll of 3+ he gets back up with 1 wound (on a 1 or 2 he dies)

He has his Eye, which in the shooting phase counts as a hot-shot laspistol. And he has a force field where any wounds that are allocated to Yarrick must be re-rolled (doesn't specify shooting or cc)

EDIT: he's also Eternal Warrior, and everyone in 6" can use his LD (just like a Lord Commissar) he doesn't get the execution thing though.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Ubik Lives wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

While no doubt possible, I probably wouldn't invest in the extra russes because I have a strong feeling that the Witch Hunters gets redone, they'll take away the whole allies rule.

If Chaos Marines can't call in Chaos Daemons, I doubt Inquisition will be able to call in Marines and IG anymore. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

I agree, but I know the WH and DH codices will be the last ones on the table for revision. The WH one would require a whole new line of minis... remember the sisters metal models are from like the late 80's...

even if I don't have them personally... I have the Russes I can borrow

i'm also itching to take some SOB in with my guard army (don't own any yet other than an inquisitor and retinue). i used to love the exorcist but the new vehicle damage rules limit it's effectiveness against av14 tanks. unless they're opentopped, the exorcist will realistically never destroy them due to only getting glances. theoretically, he could immobilize and then weapon destroy everthing and then get another roll but that's unlikely due to having to roll a 6 to even glance av14. granted, av14 tanks are a rarity outside IG but it's still an important point. as for the metal sister models, they're from about the mid to late 90's with the majority from the trailing end of 2nd edition; overall, i think they've held up nicely for 10 years. i'd definitely like a set of plastics though...


@HBMC

is your heroic senior officer title custom? if so, what will you be changing it to after may 2nd?

Experimental list 1! Lots going on, and TONS of conscripts! It is EXACTLY 2,000pts

CHQ
Creed
Medic
Regimental Banner
Lasgun
Lasgun
Body Guard
Bodyguard
Chimera (Extra Armor, Heavy Stubber)

Platoon 1
PHQ
Chenkov
Vox
Medic
Plasma
Plasma
Commissar w/ power weapon
Squad 1
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
Squad 2
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
50 Conscripts (Send in the next wave)

Platoon 2
PHQ
Lieutenant
Vox
Medic
Plasma
Plasma
Commissar w/ power weapon
Squad 1
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
Squad 2
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
50 Conscripts (Send in the next wave)

3 Griffins (Camo Netting)
Demolisher (LC, 2 PC, Extra Armor, Dozer Blade)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

strange_eric wrote:Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

Janthkin covered it better than I did, but to put my own spin on it:

Lern too math!!!2

Old Codex - Heavy Bolter +5 or Lascannon +15 (145 or 155)
New Codex - Heavy Bolter standard, upgrade to Lascannon still +15 (150 or 165)
Therefore - New Lascannon more expensive.

Enough straw for ya?

That argument would only truly hold weight if the Russ between both books are exactly the same. The factor that the Leman Russ tank is getting much better for only a marginal points increase, should be taken into account.

I would agree that the Hull Lascannon will be a rare thing still, as there will still be better places to put Lascannons then on a Russ who's fire is best put elsewhere. I could possibly see a Knight Commander Vanquisher with Lascannon and MM Sponsons, but only rarely.

Personally I can't wait to stick the Knight Cammander in a Punisher, for no other reasons then the look on certain green faces.

I would like to see what the math is on a Knight Commander Punisher versus Nob Bikers.

Quistis84 wrote:

ikew wrote:middle, your suggestion that an army could be lead by Yarrick and a Commisar Lord has struck my fancy, fostering a new line of questions.

Is Yarrick still fearless or just stubborn? I would imagine he's just stubborn now, but does that mean that he will now carry out summary executions? Or does he lead any unit he joins, giving them his Ld right off the bat (and avoiding any execution messiness)?

Yarrick and his unit are fearless, all units within 12" of Yarrick are stubborn. Also, on the turn Yarrick and his unit charges, they get to re-roll missed hits (like a SM Chaplain)

Also, when Yarrick loses his last wound, he doesn't die, you place him on his side. At the start of his next turn, on a D6 roll of 3+ he gets back up with 1 wound (on a 1 or 2 he dies)

He has his Eye, which in the shooting phase counts as a hot-shot laspistol. And he has a force field where any wounds that are allocated to Yarrick must be re-rolled (doesn't specify shooting or cc)

EDIT: he's also Eternal Warrior, and everyone in 6" can use his LD (just like a Lord Commissar) he doesn't get the execution thing though.

Yarrick + Ogryns = Fun

Yarrick + Ogryns = ouch!

Saldiven wrote:

Now, you pay 20 points for a lascannon that can fire even when you fire the battle cannon. I think this increase in cost for the lascannon is a reflection of the increased in game utility of taking that option.

But... but the LR increased in cost! Didn't we pay for the 'increased utility' from the more expensive chasis? (well, given the points increase of MM/PC, Cruddace says "no").

In the same vein, touching on what HBMC said, why should we pay more for the same gun on a tougher chasis? We already paid for the toughness! If we lowered the cost of a Sentinel's LC so we can take multiples and get the same number of shots per game (A LR will usually get 3-5, whereas each sentinel will get 1-2 if they're lucky), then people will just take sentinels, then we have target saturation! Too many targets, not reasonable to expect the opponent to even have enough shots to take them all out.

... But then again they are in piddly little squadrons so one Marine Vet Sgt stands an amazingly good chance of busting them all in one round of combat...

This line is withdrawn..

My question is how many points is Straken in addition to the command squad? I'm seriously tempted by this mean man. He might make it worth having a medic

Take two on my Chenkov list:

CHQ
Creed
Medic
Regimental Banner
Lasgun
Lasgun
Body Guard
Bodyguard
Chimera (Extra Armor, Heavy Stubber)

Platoon 1
PHQ
Chenkov
Vox
Medic
Plasma
Plasma
Squad 1
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
Squad 2
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter
Commissar
Priest
50 Conscripts (Send in the next wave)

Platoon 2
PHQ
Lieutenant
Vox
Medic
Lasgun
Lasgun
Squad 1
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
Squad 2
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter
50 Conscripts

3 Griffins
3 Separate Vendettas

Once again EXACTLY 2,000pts

Hulksmash wrote:My question is how many points is Straken in addition to the command squad? I'm seriously tempted by this mean man. He might make it worth having a medic

Colonel Straken is 95 points (on top of the 50 points for the command squad)

Mahu wrote:
I would like to see what the math is on a Knight Commander Punisher versus Nob Bikers.

29 s5 shots at bs 4 with rerolls to wound, right?

29 shots -> 20 hits -> 15 wounds -> 5 past cover save -> 2.5 wounds past FNP.

I'm not impressed.

warboss wrote:@HBMC

is your heroic senior officer title custom? if so, what will you be changing it to after may 2nd?

Nope, it's just exceedingly high on the Guard Rank Track. If you don't see the DCM(like on mine), Mod(of any flavor), or Admin tag, it isn't custom.

glory wrote:

Mahu wrote:
I would like to see what the math is on a Knight Commander Punisher versus Nob Bikers.

29 s5 shots at bs 4 with rerolls to wound, right?

29 shots -> 20 hits -> 15 wounds -> 5 past cover save -> 2.5 wounds past FNP.

I'm not impressed.

Ehh, it was worth a try, but still the combination will be sick against most units.

warboss wrote:i'm also itching to take some SOB in with my guard army (don't own any yet other than an inquisitor and retinue). i used to love the exorcist but the new vehicle damage rules limit it's effectiveness against av14 tanks. unless they're opentopped, the exorcist will realistically never destroy them due to only getting glances. theoretically, he could immobilize and then weapon destroy everthing and then get another roll but that's unlikely due to having to roll a 6 to even glance av14.

The Exorcist, being AP 1, only has a net -1 to the damage tables on a glance; a '6' will still destroy the target.