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Fairly do's.

So, in summing up, somewhere between adequate, and satisfactor?

I should just staple wings to my predator and pretend.

Let me just clarify my 'power builds' statement on the last page.

I don't really care about 'power builds' and tournaments and whatever. What I mean by there being not many 'power builds' is that a I fear all the 'toys' in a Guard army will be either so expensive or so worthless (or both, as it seems) that even the card-carrying members of the Casual Gamer Mafia will be taking similar-looking lists because even they will get sick of losing all the time just because they had the temerity to try and use the Elites section of the book, or not bring a trio of Vendy's to every game.

I fear stagnation of Guard meta-gaming because we'll be reduced to only a few choices that are worth a damn, and heaps of 'cool' things that just don't work!

And I actually say this not from the perspective of a long-time Guard player, but actually as a Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter player. I've mentioned before that I have a combined DH/WH army that involves not a single GK or SoB and instead makes use of the Rogue's Gallery of units such as Daemonhosts, Death Cultists, Archo-Flagellants, all backed up by ISTs. From a meta-game perspective this is just stupid - the only Inquisitorial armies that really work are GK and SoB armies. Trying to use the over-priced and underpowered random units that make up the rest of the Inquisitorial line just doesn't work in a competitive environment, or even against non-competitive 'casual' style armies.

So why do I do it? Because I choose things more based on aesthetics and story than in-game worth. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate their value (or lack thereof) in a game - I certainly do and my ire over the choices in the new Guard 'Dex speaks to that - but after watching a friend of mine bring the same Grey Knight list to every game for years, I couldn't stand the idea of having to make an army in a particular way just to have a chance at winning. So that's why I have an Inquisitorial army centred on all the crap units no one uses - because I can mix it up with different combos and make it interesting.

So, bringing this back to the Guard, with all these high-price/low-utility units coming into the Codex, what we might see, and what I'm most afraid of, is the Guard becoming "3 Vendys/4-6 Russes and/or Arty/Platoons of infantry number crunched to take the best advantage of Orders". Right now people play Guard in a lot of different ways, and while there are some very very wrong ways to play Guard, there are a lot of correct ways to play Guard. It's a fun and flexible list (the KP debacle notwithstanding). I don't want to see Guard distilled to a cookie-cutter list just so people have a chance at winning, and I can see that happening with that Codex.

And it saddens me and it angers Commissar Calgar.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I doubt Guard will end up in the same position as the 'Chaos' Codex, a book that's fine as an army but a pale shadow of its former glory, but it's looking like there aren't going to be many 'power builds' thanks to the extreme costs of most of the upgrades and the strange and nonsensical arbitrary restrictions that seem to have been heaped upon it.

From a game design stand point, if your objective is balance, should there ever be "power builds"? Its one thing to play to your strong points and if that what you mean, great! But its another when you consider that too often "power builds" result from an unintended consequence of allowing units certain combination of abilities and stats and then allowing the army to take advantage of that unintended fact to such a zealous degree that by the next go around you have to "fix" or break things. I'm already guessing by the next time 5-6yrs from now when we get back to IG they will probably nerf Valkyries which are the closest thing to a steal in the whole book. Despite that, I think this will be a fairly well balanced book likely to lose disproportionately to less balanced codices and codices of armies that have advantages opposite our weaknesses.

---
EDIT: HBMC, just saw what you wrote.

I think the design objectives that this codices follow are following a larger conceptual goal for 40k. This edition has been about reemphasizing troop choices. This codices does that. It getting back to the basics. If you looked at 4th edition armies, the vast majority of those armies were composed every other FOC counting as a troop. Looking at those armies you certainly wouldn't think their was an obvious reason certain units are the main unit of their respective army. The era of "elite" armies are waning.

I understand your concern about the collapsing variety of IG army play styles. I really enjoyed seeing it all, but at the same time I think there were moments where things were getting overly varied. Example I never took drop troops, because I personally thought it encroached on space marines and diminished both theirs and IG's thematic distinctiveness. Ultimately what it comes down to for me is if our codex has been balanced relative to others. I think the armies that fit into the core identity of the guard will benefit from this codex, while those that stray from it will suffer.

Mythos - See my clarification above.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Someone remind me again; who's writing this codex? It would set a lot of things straight.

Robin "Arbitrary" Crudace (thanks minmax!).

Call him Arby for short.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Someone remind me again; who's writing this codex? It would set a lot of things straight.

Robin Cruddace.

Mmmmmmm.... Arby's... Oh, not the fast food?

I think that this codex will be a major improvement over the previous ones. Besides, nobody is MADE to take a Vandetta, and there are still ways to get AT in your army, but just that the Vandetta is so effective at AT that for a "better" list you should take one.

Just my take.

-A.

Okay, here's my power list so far. It deviates from the Tanks kill Infantry/Infantry kill Tanks paradigm, but I think we'll be seeing more like it. I think this will be an era of Vendettas kill Tanks/Everything else kills Infantry.

1x CCS w/ 3 Flamers, 1 HF - 85 pts
2x Vet Squads w/ 2 Flamers, 1 HF - 400 pts
3x Vendetta Squadrons of 3 - 1170 pts
1x Hydra Squadron of 2 w/ Camo Netting - 170 pts
1x Griffon Squadron of 3 - 225 pts

CCS and Vet Squads are mounted or dismounted in the Vendettas as needed. I could probably go with 1 less Vendetta Squadron and use the points to buy more Vet Squads and another tank or more artillery. It's only got 2 scoring units, but with the Vendettas, I think they'll get the job done. And only 8 KPs total.

I wonder what the codex would be like if, say, Phil Kelly wrote it.

Well, at least we are going to have some down right nasty lists from this new codex


I for some reason keep thinking about a BS4 Punisher that can reroll wounds... slap some sponsons on that bad boy and you will be taking out 5+ MEQ a turn (regardless of cover) or 13+ OEQ (and basically a whole 10man squad of guard). Pretty impressive firepower imo, costs 250 and has a short range of 24" tho :(


Vendettas are now offically mandatory. Slap a squad of infantry in there and they're scoring tank hunters.

I'm still pretty pumped about the Griffion, cheap and accurate

I think my heavy choices will be a squad of Griffions, a squad of LRBT and Exterminator w/ sponsons or a Demolisher w/out sponsons.
Of course, if Vendettas become extremely common, then you might see Hydras becoming more important (wish they could shoot at DS Drop Pods and try to blow them up!).

Cheese Elemental wrote:I wonder what the codex would be like if, say, Phil Kelly wrote it.

Ogryns, Ratlings, and Mutants(as a new unit) would be the most powerful units in the book, because apparently Phil Kelly hates humans.

Warriors of Chaos are humans, and they're an awesome army.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Warriors of Chaos are humans, and they're an awesome army.

Sorry, I forgot one of these: .

@HBMC: I think it's really uncool of your to be attacking the writer of the IG codex (in giving him a derogatory nickname), because even though it has his name on it, he's part of the design team and I think this is his first codex. What that means to me is he could have wrote the bestest codex in the game, then used Orygns to crush his boss at work, then showed up the next day to be told they are worth 40 points. Because we don't know why the codex is so Bi-polar, I think it's in very bad taste to attack the writer, especially when the codex has not been released or previewed in any form other then rumors. I can understand your frustration, but I feel think your over reacting and over analyzing rumors that "may" turn out to be correct. I respect your feelings, but to say it's too early to draw these conclusions just feels to freaking obvious. Yes it looks like Ogryn are over priced, they may suck, but until we have had a few months after the codex is released it's really hard to make real judgments about this.

P.S. The Vendetta might be cheap because it's huge new flying stand makes it so everyone always has LOS to it and it almost never has cover. At least the Valk can be moving at Flat out (and get a cover save), while doing it's job of moving units around.

NinjaRay wrote:P.S. The Vendetta might be cheap because it's huge new flying stand makes it so everyone always has LOS to it and it almost never has cover. At least the Valk can be moving at Flat out (and get a cover save), while doing it's job of moving units around.

Psst...the Vendetta gets that too.

Makes the Lascannons less effective though.

NinjaRay wrote:especially when the codex has not be released or previewed in any form other then rumors.

Unfortunately, Middle's newest "rumors" come directly out of the preview copy of the book able to be seen at GW stores, so you're technically wrong here.

I was under the impression that a vehicle only got cover if half of it's hull was not visible. So it really doesnt matter if it's sitting in area terrain or not, if half the hull is visible, no save. That's correct yes? Hence I'm not too sure that camo netting is really worth very many points, except perhaps on indirect-firing vehicles.

Mogul Kamir... Rage is not a good thing. It's one of those bad special abilities that counteracts something else. And has especially bad synergy with Rough Riders. Is Kamir hell on wheels in some way we dont know about? Because if not, why would I pay 40 points to tactically hamstring my own squad?

With the Valk/Vend, arent those heavy bolter "sponsons" mounted inside the hull peeking out through the hatch to the side? Assuming (seems like a safe enough assumption) the lascannons/missiles/etc are fixed to shoot forward, it'll be quite difficult to get your firing arc such that you'll ever get HB shots off, unless theyve got some sort of rule where they can shoot at a different target.

My first thought about the Voxes was "I'll probably only buy those for my SWS and HWS since they'll be the ones who get the most orders". Figures theyre the guys that cant take them.

To fire the 3 TL lascannons on a Vendetta, it'll have to be moving slow enough to not get a speed cover save. And since it's up on a flight stand, it'll almost never get a normal cover save. Arm 12. Sounds potentially dangerous to hover and shoot like that. Of course, being on such a tall flight stand makes it a little easier to shoot enemy vehicles without a cover save for them. Still, theyre pretty spiffy.

Also, are the psyker squads 0-1 or could you run 3? Pinning a Ld2 squad is cool but sometimes you'll want to make them just fall back normally then chase them off the board by having something stay within 6" so it cant rally. Hard to pull off, but it's another possibility. The psyker choir is an elite choice too, right? That'd be irony if psykers went from 12 points of useless to the best elites choice.

Platuan4th wrote:

NinjaRay wrote:especially when the codex has not be released or previewed in any form other then rumors.

Unfortunately, Middle's newest "rumors" come directly out of the preview copy of the book able to be seen at GW stores, so you're technically wrong here.

In truth that does entirely depend on how much you trust middle. I do somewhat agree that its unfair to tag the new guy as the problem here, it's not like they were on a winning streak writing these things before he came along. Hellfire rounds working in combi bolters but not storm bolters or pistols is pretty arbitrary for example. And the amazing performance of sternguard compared to the horrific performance of vanguard holds similar bi polar... ness... Yeah.

Can we just admit that they are somewhat bad at writing codexes in general?

Platuan4th wrote:

NinjaRay wrote:especially when the codex has not be released or previewed in any form other then rumors.

Unfortunately, Middle's newest "rumors" come directly out of the preview copy of the book able to be seen at GW stores, so you're technically wrong here.

I'm not wrong until I've had a chance to read the codex. I'm just saying while Middle appears to be going a great job getting us info, but nothing says he's infallible or not missing some small details that could make all the difference in the world. Until I read the book, it's a rumor to me. Rumor's are hearsay and not always true.

So if a book is badly written... I shouldn't blame the person who's name is on it? Then who should be blame? Jervis is a good one to start with, but he didn't write it - Arby did. That's not to say it wasn't a colaberative effort, I'm sure it was, but his name is on it, he shold be held accountable for both the good and the bad.

As for nicknames, please. I call Jervis the Sultan of Bland, and when Pete Haines was still around I called him Page 41.

If the codex turns out to be an absolute crap-pile, can someone give me Cruddance's address and a ton of fish guts?

Edit: S**tpile isn't censored!

Yes, the Vendetta will be a firemagnet. But with a good Scout move, it should not be that hard to position yourself so that your opponent can not bring a great deal of anti tank firepower against it, while it shoots its TL LCs.

I think our fast attack slots are going to be nearly as competative as our heavy slots. Vendettas, RR's (Cheaper w/a good place to hide behind those tanks and cheaper chimeras), Valks (i like them due to the 12" move w/lots of shots while transporting), and cheaper sentinels means that I'm going to have trouble picking my FA.

Meanwhile my elites are gonna be easy (i.e. I might field a ST squad, it'll depend).

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Reecius wrote:Three twin linked las cannons on a fast skimmer for 130 points is captain insano good.

Quoted for truth as well as for the fact that you used the name "Captain Insano"!

Haha, the theme of the new air bourne IG is, "With the Vendettas, you can do it!"

Regarding the Vendetta's move and fire restrictions, fast vehicles can move 6" and fire everything. It can also move 12" and shoot just one lascannon. It doesn't have to stand still.

So... Straken replaces a Company Commander in a CCS, right? Or is he an IC?

Man, a SWS with three Demo charges jumping out of a Valk or Vendeta will be a sweet, sweet squad. I use two Demo charges in my airborne IG now (so long guys, nice knowing you) and they are brutal. Sometimes they blow themselves or their buddies up, but hey, the squad is never dull! But three of them, holy gak, you could decimate entire mobs of orks or MEQ's easily. I am stoke don that squad, very very much.

Also, 225 points nets you a squad of 3 Hydras or 3 Grifons, that is fantastic firepower for those points.

This dex has some serious punch in it.

3 squads of 3 vendettas (1170)

3 squads of 3 Grifons (675)

2 squads of vets (150)

And a Psyker for your HQ, a tad over 2000, but you could drops one griffon to make it fit.

That army obliterates hordes and mech lists. 9 rerollable pie plates, 27 move and shoot, twin linked las cannons per turn.

Wow, this is going to be fun.

I wouldn't call a min-maxed out tha whazoo list 'fun', Reecius. 9 Vendys and 9 Griffons looks decidedly dull to me, no matter how 'effective' it may be.

I am still a little unclear on whether special weapon squads can take a vox. Nothing seems to state one way or the other which leads me to believe that, no, they can't (I know it has specifically been stated that heavy weapon squads can't take them).

At least the speacial weapons squads can hop in someone else's Chimera without penalty unlike the poor heavy weapons squads that are apparently stranded out in the open with no ride (and will lose a precious turn of shooting if they decide to get into one) and will forever be walking onto the table from reserves in missions that use them.