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Thing is if Skulltaker lives through all that (assume tyrant wiffs all his attacks or only causes a single wound) Skulltaker has enough attacks charging to get at least one hit even on 5's and on a 4+ to wound that Tyrant is pushing up daisies. No Ld test like a normal force weapon, no ld check for the tyrant. It's just dead on a 4+.

As well, Tyrants have to still take Psychic tests. Sure he is LD 10 and will very rarely fail it but if he does Skulltaker is now hitting on 4's instead of 5 thereby making it even easier for ST to insta-kill the Tyrant.

Sure it's a matchup the Tyrant will win most of the time but it could also end badly for the Tyrant as well.

I'm liking that Tyrant can now at least hold his own against TH/SS termies, for the most part.

ShumaGorath wrote:Does feel no pain work on ap 1 or 2 weapons?

AP1, AP2, cc weapons that ignore armour saves, or instant death wounds all ignore FNP. Tervigon has some definate syneragy whether it be giving fleet to carnie squads or FNP to...well just about anything.

Fateweaver wrote:Thing is if Skulltaker lives through all that (assume tyrant wiffs all his attacks or only causes a single wound) Skulltaker has enough attacks charging to get at least one hit even on 5's and on a 4+ to wound that Tyrant is pushing up daisies. No Ld test like a normal force weapon, no ld check for the tyrant. It's just dead on a 4+.

As well, Tyrants have to still take Psychic tests. Sure he is LD 10 and will very rarely fail it but if he does Skulltaker is now hitting on 4's instead of 5 thereby making it even easier for ST to insta-kill the Tyrant.

Sure it's a matchup the Tyrant will win most of the time but it could also end badly for the Tyrant as well.

I'm liking that Tyrant can now at least hold his own against TH/SS termies, for the most part.

I'd be shocked if the HT does not have Eternal Warrior in the final codex, it makes sense to take it away from Synapse, but I doubt they are going to leave one of the only HQ in the army without Eternal Warrior.

I believe the information we have now *is* from the final Codex.

Redemption wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Failing that, power weps and fists will do well, since it only has 3 attacks lol.

Actually if it has regeneration it will statistically beat a tac squad with a fist (as the number of wounds dealt vs wounds regenerated reach parity at 4 wounds, and the tervigon/tyrranofex begins to regenerate more at 5). Though that fight will also take all week, and a tyrranofex with regen and the capsule canon is just shy of 300 points while the tervy is just shy of 230 with regen.

Your math doesn't fly. At 4 wounds, you only get 4/6th of a wound back on average, while 2 powerfist attacks do 1.1 wounds each assault phase. And Regen only works on the Tyranid player's turn, so that's 2.2 wounds versus the 0.6 regenned. It would probably croak somewhere around the 3rd turn, even shorter if they managed to wound it with shooting before they assaulted.

Your right, I totally forgot to take the second round of combats existence into account.

Than start being shocked. NOTHING has EW in the Tyranid codex and I for one am glad. It is being handed out worst than rending got handed out.

It's like the new kid trying to be cool so he tries to be everywhere and do everything. EW needs to start disappearing.

Fateweaver wrote:Than start being shocked. NOTHING has EW in the Tyranid codex and I for one am glad. It is being handed out worst than rending got handed out.

It's like the new kid trying to be cool so he tries to be everywhere and do everything. EW needs to start disappearing.

Time will tell I suppose. I don't know why EW needs to start dissapearing. If EW starts dissapearing than the frequency of Force Weapons needs to decrease. Even Tyranids have Force Weapons now...wtf.

EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

ShumaGorath wrote:EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

I agree. However, I feel that taking EW from larger beasties such as the HT and Carnifex (and more importantly from the Special characters such as Swarmlord and Old One Eye) is bad. It's about as bad as every Special Char from Chaos (with the Exception of Abaddon) not having EW. But worse. Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW? Every army (with the exception of those that are old and outdated) has at least one thing with Eternal Warrior. Except Tyranids now, as it seems. This seems like a pretty big disadvantage.

Darth Bob wrote:Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW?

Yeah but they're T5, not T6 as most TMC's are. That's a monumental difference.

The largest 'Nids don't need except for, IMO, the 'special' ones like the Swarm Lord

Yeah its only a really big deal with warriors and even then its not that big of a deal.

The only thing I am unhappy with is that you get some dud units and somehow they made lictors worse.

Yes, lets take away the only good thing they had going for them in the last codex. I still don' understand that t all.

From what I've read and seen worthless

Pyrovore
Ripper swarms are now completely pointless to EVER take seriously ever. They not only can't claim are no long immune to instant death and they have a disadvantage and theyre not cheaper.
Carnifex , yeah seriously no invuln no 2 + save. GG.


Everything else is at least decent to totally awesome sauce.

Pyrovore
Seriously, for such a kick ass model why so gakky rules.

Darth Bob wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

I agree. However, I feel that taking EW from larger beasties such as the HT and Carnifex (and more importantly from the Special characters such as Swarmlord and Old One Eye) is bad. It's about as bad as every Special Char from Chaos (with the Exception of Abaddon) not having EW. But worse. Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW? Every army (with the exception of those that are old and outdated) has at least one thing with Eternal Warrior. Except Tyranids now, as it seems. This seems like a pretty big disadvantage.

I'm of the opinion that things shouldn't be immune. It's a danger. It means that your HQ choice is at an actual risk in combat. Daemon princes I can understand having it, they are both daemons and monstrous creatures. But when every IC has one it just becomes stupid. The instant death rule exists for a reason, when you make everything vulnerable to it immune you take out half of the reason for using a weapon with a strength above 6.

I can't see a reason right now why any tyranid army would not field at least 60 gargoyles can we go ahead and declare gargoyles one of the best units for its points in the game.

I don't think I'll have 60 of em, simply because I want to make sure I save points for tons of Gaunts and Toxigaunts. I do want at least one unit of `em for sure however, maybe two if I have the points. That's where I'm at right now. I know what I want based on the rules, but I don't know how much of it I can have due to not knowing the point costs of everything.

Does anyone know of the other upgrades for Gargoyles theyre half the point cost now so I mean thats dirt cheap. I wonder if they can exchange their guns for anything. The only thing Ive read is they get a initial bioplasma 6 on a hit is a auto wound plus can get poison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit: Someone sent me a PM earlier saying Toxic Miasma is broken as its not a BtB its just everyone in combat. There are units of creatures that can take Toxic Miasma.

Any confirmation or denial on that.

Who can take Toxic Miasma?

Last I saw was Toxin Sacs, and maybe Adrenal, but no gun options at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

I agree. However, I feel that taking EW from larger beasties such as the HT and Carnifex (and more importantly from the Special characters such as Swarmlord and Old One Eye) is bad. It's about as bad as every Special Char from Chaos (with the Exception of Abaddon) not having EW. But worse. Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW? Every army (with the exception of those that are old and outdated) has at least one thing with Eternal Warrior. Except Tyranids now, as it seems. This seems like a pretty big disadvantage.

I'm of the opinion that things shouldn't be immune. It's a danger. It means that your HQ choice is at an actual risk in combat. Daemon princes I can understand having it, they are both daemons and monstrous creatures. But when every IC has one it just becomes stupid. The instant death rule exists for a reason, when you make everything vulnerable to it immune you take out half of the reason for using a weapon with a strength above 6.

I understand where you are coming from. It never made much sense to me that so many of the SM special characters have EW. But alot of the CSM characters even have fluff to back up their reason for having it (Kharn being brought back several times by Khorne, Lucius being reborn in the bodies of those who kill him). I also think it would make sense that the Hive Mind would develop their generals (Hive Tyrants) to be resistant to Force Weapons. Aditionally, wouldn't the Shadow of the Warp reduce the effectiveness of Force Weapons just as it reduces the potency of Pyschers? Overall though, I would say that complete removal of ID immunity as we know it would make 40k (especially Apocalypse) incredibly imbalanced. We'd have a 400 point Shadowsword taking out a 1000+ point Hierophant or a 800+ point Gargantuan Squiggoth in one shot.

Glands and Sacs, no gun options.

I'm reading it as all models in a unit that is in assault with a model/unit with toxic miasma takes a wound if they fail a T check. You get your save so it only really hurts low T, low armor save models like IG and maybe T.

So if a mob of 30 orks is in assault with a Venomthrope, at the END of every assault phase every model in the unit must pass a T test or take a wound. It's at the end so won't count toward combat resolution as it occurs after combat has been fought, would be more broken if it counted toward combat res.

Great way to thin out ork mobs. Why my DP's have Nurgles Rot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darth Bob wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:EW isn't really needed on units with a T6 or higher. It's primary design was simply to prevent str based instant death. When you hand it out like M&Ms to every high value target in the game you get a situation where things like force weapons, d canons, and a good number of special and psychic abilities become utterly useless. There used to be two armies that were entirely immune to ID, demons and nids, now there is only one. I for one laud the change.

I agree. However, I feel that taking EW from larger beasties such as the HT and Carnifex (and more importantly from the Special characters such as Swarmlord and Old One Eye) is bad. It's about as bad as every Special Char from Chaos (with the Exception of Abaddon) not having EW. But worse. Could you imagine how unviable (moreso) Daemon Princes would be if they didn't have EW? Every army (with the exception of those that are old and outdated) has at least one thing with Eternal Warrior. Except Tyranids now, as it seems. This seems like a pretty big disadvantage.

I'm of the opinion that things shouldn't be immune. It's a danger. It means that your HQ choice is at an actual risk in combat. Daemon princes I can understand having it, they are both daemons and monstrous creatures. But when every IC has one it just becomes stupid. The instant death rule exists for a reason, when you make everything vulnerable to it immune you take out half of the reason for using a weapon with a strength above 6.

I understand where you are coming from. It never made much sense to me that so many of the SM special characters have EW. But alot of the CSM characters even have fluff to back up their reason for having it (Kharn being brought back several times by Khorne, Lucius being reborn in the bodies of those who kill him). I also think it would make sense that the Hive Mind would develop their generals (Hive Tyrants) to be resistant to Force Weapons. Aditionally, wouldn't the Shadow of the Warp reduce the effectiveness of Force Weapons just as it reduces the potency of Pyschers? Overall though, I would say that complete removal of ID immunity as we know it would make 40k (especially Apocalypse) incredibly imbalanced. We'd have a 400 point Shadowsword taking out a 1000+ point Hierophant or a 800+ point Gargantuan Squiggoth in one shot.

Thing is the Shadow in the Warp ability (not power as it's never cancelled or tested for like warlock abilities) will mean an average roll of 10.5 on 3d6. Since nothing in the game has Ld11 it will mean that there is a good chance that the Force Weapon will not work. Skulltaker is really the only thing I see being an ID threat to the Tyrant from a melee standpoint and the Tyrant can shut him down or lower his effectiveness vastly (apart from Dcannons which are probably rarely seen and wraithguard who are super short ranged and slow unless put into a vehicle and will die to anything remotely capable of assault, ie the entire Tyranid army more or less).

Again I have to agree with Shuma. Not many things with ID melee can really hurt the big bugs. Most of the SM characters that can inflict ID are S4 so need 6's to wound the carnifex and the Tyrant and the Mawloc/Trygon. The only things more susceptible to ID now are 'Nid Warriors and IMO they got better for, depending how they ran, cheaper points and are more resilient to really what killed them alot in 4th which was bolters and multishot weapons.

If my opponents are going to be dumb enough to blast my warriors with krak missles and not use those missles against my carnifi who now are no longer nigh immune to them or my Tyrant or the Trygon and Mawloc I plan to take then it will be a very short and very one sided game with my 'Nids tabling my opponent.

Hollismason wrote:If its a blast weapon and the center hole is not on a vehicle its at half strength which would mean str. 3 which even against any rear armour cannot do anything.

It's not a blast weapon or shooting attack, it's a special deployment rule. Half strength at centre hole doesn't apply, YMMV tho.

I think that'll depend on the specific wording in the Codex for the ability.

Fetterkey wrote:I think that'll depend on the specific wording in the Codex for the ability.

It just describes the procedure of how you lay down the template, etc, and that "hits on vehicles are directed against the rear armour". That's it. No mention of it being a blast weapon or anything like that. Very much a YMMV affair I feel. As it is part of a unique special rule for this particular unit's deployment, I personally wouldn't consider it would follow the specific rules for firing a blast weapon at a vehicle. And the rear armour stipulation implies an auto-central hit anyway IMO.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I think that'll depend on the specific wording in the Codex for the ability.

It just describes the procedure of how you lay down the template, etc, and that "hits on vehicles are directed against the rear armour". That's it. No mention of it being a blast weapon or anything like that. Very much a YMMV affair I feel. As it is part of a unique special rule for this particular unit's deployment, I personally wouldn't consider it would follow the specific rules for firing a blast weapon at a vehicle. And the rear armour stipulation implies an auto-central hit anyway IMO.

It looks like Fetterkey's Avatar is ogling yours. Jus' sayin'.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I've searched for this and I don't understand the translation.

Can someone explain exactly how the Mawloc deep strikes? Here's what I understand;

Put a die on the table to represent entry, must be 1" away from enemy per normal DS
Roll scatter
After position is determined, place a large blast----suffer a Str. 6 AP2 hit, armor hit on rear
Push models out of the way and place big bad dude.

This right?

It's basically:
- Place a Large Blast marker where you want the Mawloc to enter.
- Roll for scatter.
- Units under the marker suffer a S6 AP2 hit, vehicles are hit on their rear.
- Resolve casualties.
- Place the Mawloc and move any remaining models the minimum distance required to clear the marker in a legal formation and avoiding impassable terrain. Models that were locked in combat at the moment must attempt to remain in base contact with the unit they were in close combat in. Models may not be moved within 1" of other units (besides the one they were locked in combat with). Vehicles, even immobilised ones, remain in their current direction but are also moved. Models that can't be moved (e.g., would have to move into base contact with an enemy model) are destoyed.

Normal DS rules never mention that you need to be 1" away from enemies. It's just advisable because if you don't scatter you'd have to roll on the misshap table. The Mawloc, however, doesn't roll on the mishap table, so it seems you can just deepstrike in the middle of an enemy unit, your own unit, units locked in combat, etc. to your hearts content.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

Hollismason wrote:If its a blast weapon and the center hole is not on a vehicle its at half strength which would mean str. 3 which even against any rear armour cannot do anything.

It's not a blast weapon or shooting attack, it's a special deployment rule. Half strength at centre hole doesn't apply, YMMV tho.

I agree, it is not mentioned it is a Blast weapon, just that any models under the marker get an automatic S6 AP2 hit.

Hollismason wrote: @ Chapterhouse

Hey , one of the things you guys ought to consider is a cheap Tervigon conversion kit. I mean all you would need is to have a add on belly sac with egg pods. Some arms and a gun. Also more biomorphs please

The Tervigon doesn't have any guns, just a Spine Banks-like carapace weapon that can either shoot as a multishot weapon or a template (chosen at army list creation). The only limbed weapons you can add are a pair of Scything Talons or a pair of Crushing Claws.

wyomingfox wrote:Tervigon has some definate syneragy whether it be giving fleet to carnie squads or FNP to...well just about anything.

I don't see where Tervigons give Fleet to units. If you're thinking of the psychic powers that lets friendly units run and shoot, it says they can't assault afterwards unless they have Fleet.

Hollismason wrote:Does anyone know of the other upgrades for Gargoyles theyre half the point cost now so I mean thats dirt cheap. I wonder if they can exchange their guns for anything. The only thing Ive read is they get a initial bioplasma 6 on a hit is a auto wound plus can get poison.

Their only upgrades are Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs for 1 point each.

edit: Someone sent me a PM earlier saying Toxic Miasma is broken as its not a BtB its just everyone in combat. There are units of creatures that can take Toxic Miasma.

Any confirmation or denial on that.

Who can take Toxic Miasma?

Well tell the guy he's wrong. It's only units that are in base contact at the end of every player turn that have to take a Toughness test or get a wound, against which you can take all saves but cover saves. Also the only unit that have it is the Venomthrope, a the Hive Tyrant and Tervigon can buy it as an upgrade. So it's only really deadly against low Toughness units with a bad save, like Gaunts or Guardmen. But I'm sure people who use them are used to them dying in droves when they're in close combat.

Just put up a batrep using the gant farm with T6 support if anyone wants to check it out...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/271677.page#1217417

After playing that one I'm really looking forward to hearing some ideas for tervigon conversions. I've got some ideas, probably going to be using the valkyrie base...

Also, this thread in the army list section might be slightly interesting if you've been following all of the nid rumor threads...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271481.page

A quick question for anyone who's read the German 'dex. Does the Tervigon's Catalyst rule say that it affects a 'friendly unit' or a 'tyranid unit'?

Shep wrote:Just put up a batrep using the gant farm with T6 support if anyone wants to check it out...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/271677.page#1217417

After playing that one I'm really looking forward to hearing some ideas for tervigon conversions. I've got some ideas, probably going to be using the valkyrie base...

Also, this thread in the army list section might be slightly interesting if you've been following all of the nid rumor threads...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271481.page

Save your time and money, we are working on a fairly affordable kit to convert a Carnifex into the most popular HQ choice at the moment. Magnetize it and you can still use it as a carnifex as well.

Fenris-77 wrote:A quick question for anyone who's read the German 'dex. Does the Tervigon's Catalyst rule say that it affects a 'friendly unit' or a 'tyranid unit'?

Catalyst:
Used in Movement phase. When successful, elect one (1) friendly unit within 12" of the Psyker. This unit has Feel No Pain untill the next Tyranid player's turn.

Yeah its a incredibly powerful ability.

So invest in Devastators and Missile Launchers.

The only thing missiles will still kill is warriors. Carnies with FNP only fear the wrath of the AP1 and 2! mauahahahahaahahahaah