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I was on the fence, until this post from the CHS forums:

Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP Wink

Chapterhouse Studios wrote:
Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.

Found on this page:
http://frothersunite.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20102&start=540

So GW did send them a Cease and Desist request, if not more than one, since it was referred to in plural, and they ignored it. Then they said if someone tried to capitalize on THEIR work, they would go after them.

Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way. So I want to see Chapter House go down.

I don't really think much of value would be lost, not because I'm not really a fan of their work, but because I'm not really a fan of their attitude toward the company they owe their entire business to.

CasaHouse wrote:I was on the fence, until this post from the CHS forums:

Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP Wink

Chapterhouse Studios wrote:
Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.

Found on this page:
http://frothersunite.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20102&start=540

So GW did send them a Cease and Desist request, if not more than one, since it was referred to in plural, and they ignored it. Then they said if someone tried to capitalize on THEIR work, they would go after them.

Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way. So I want to see Chapter House go down.

I don't really think much of value would be lost, not because I'm not really a fan of their work, but because I'm not really a fan of their attitude toward the company they owe their entire business to.

First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....

I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.

Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.

CasaHouse wrote:
Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way.

Try re-reading what you posted, mate. The original post blatantly stated " if someone started copying CHS stuff." As in reproducing, NOT what GW states they're going after CHS for.

May want to read up on what the word Hypocrisy actually means.

I hope GW wins. Though I like some of the stuff made by ChapterHouse and own one of the Tau Titans that I got from them, I have always felt they treaded too close to GW products and goods. If they wanted to prove that they weren't stealing from GW, maybe they could come up with some of their own range of models, rules and the like that the pads fit on.

I got into and still play a GW game system because of the style, look, and playability of their games. CH is trying to steal the style and look without putting in the effort of developing their own "brand".

I am all for the little guy trying to make a living, and I don't really see how CH is bitting too deep into GWs pockets, but lets get serious.

Lastly I'd like to see the Judge tell GW that they should protect their IP better by not putting out ugly models I'm looking at you stormraven.

Skartooth wrote:Cant GW just buy out Chapter House studios and sell the awesome shoulder pads and stuff for themselves?

Because the sculpter is using his elbows instead of his hands to hold his sculpting tools with. I hate to say it, but if GW goes down (ie the market gets flooded with cheep garbage or whatever) then the main feeder into wargames goes with it. Taking along with all the people who could get bored of 40k or just try other stuff. It means an end to all of the great inovation (malifaux, infinity etc) that is going on off the back of the money coming into wargaming. Does anyone remember going into a club more than 10 years ago, and thinking 'where are my peers'?

Of course CHS isn't going to acomplish this on its own, but if it sets a precident for poor knockoffs then where do we stand? Yes that is a bit of a moral rather than legal rant, but until the courts decide we're stuck looking into the void. If it happens to GW, then it will happen to PP because IP and Copyright are either going to be worthless or the legal side of keeping oiks off IP is gonna cost a rediculous amount. Scaremongering on - Which company is it going to be next, eh?

Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....

I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.

Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.

That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.

And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.

I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.

-Casa

CasaHouse wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....

I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.

Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.

That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.

And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.

I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.

-Casa

If this is true (you saying your not trolling) then I do appologize. I dont think you can blame my reaction if you have read any of the "trolling" post on frothers.

I am referring to GWs known record of sending out tons of C&Ds to anyone and everyone, I think that is pretty much public knowledge, not referring to any actions they have had with my company.

He he he, he said Stormravennnn

Just for thought, a little hypocracy maybe? From another forum that I watch,

Chapterhousestudios

Reply with quote

Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP


Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.

So if I make a sculpt based on your stuff copied from GW, do I get sued by you or GW?

Captain Jack wrote:He he he, he said Stormravennnn

Just for thought, a little hypocracy maybe? From another forum that I watch,

Chapterhousestudios

Reply with quote

Woody wrote:
Be interesting to see what happened if someone started copying CHS stuff. It's not as if they could come up with a convincing case for a C&D based on their own IP


Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though.

So if I make a sculpt based on your stuff copied from GW, do I get sued by you or GW?

Platuan4th wrote:

CasaHouse wrote:
Lack of respect for the company that supplies the IP they make money off of without permission, and massive hypocrisy just rub me the wrong way.

Try re-reading what you posted, mate. The original post blatantly stated " if someone started copying CHS stuff." As in reproducing, NOT what GW states they're going after CHS for.

May want to read up on what the word Hypocrisy actually means.

Since CHS doesn't directly copy(ie. reproduce) anything GW actually makes themselves, the bold refers to you, too.

Also why repost this after someone posted it not even 10 posts ago?

Ummm, because I was composing while others were posting, have a look at where my post starts. Look, CHS is acting strange (I'll keep it clean) in the fact that it is ok to sell stuff clearly based on someone elses ideas, but doesn't like his nose tweaked when it is pointed out. Have a look at other threads, on other forums, this is not just a problem here ( http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5209543&postcount=42 ) . As I stated before, until there is a ruling we don't know what the fallout of this is. Stuff the dictionary, because there is a language and law gap between countries, which is why these threads go so long. What is the future going to look like if IP and Trademarks are irrelavent or impossible to enforce?

Captain Jack wrote:What is the future going to look like if IP and Trademarks are irrelavent or impossible to enforce?

Probably the same as it does today. See China and Mexico and the KO toys they make and sell across the globe. See the internet and the rampant piracy that exists on it as we speak. It's far from the "end of the world" scenario you're painting it to be.

And that make it right how?

yah im changing my mind because chapterhouse is so brazenly going on about c&d forms ONLINE whilst still selling GW related stuff its not right :(

There is a distinct different from CHS making items that are styled like GW's and made to fit onto GW figs, to someone just making straight copies of existing work. I would REALLY hope you can see the difference there.

Aduro wrote:There is a distinct different from CHS making items that are styled like GW's and made to fit onto GW figs, to someone just making straight copies of existing work. I would REALLY hope you can see the difference there.

The problem here is that there are already plenty of companies doing this, not plagerising GW IP. See Maxmini etc.

The wheel on this thread turns again

CasaHouse wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:First off, we dont even have A CH Forum and I doubt you were ever on the fence about us, the fact you are copying and pasting stuff from other forums to try to show CHS in a bad light shows your bias....

I dont know how you can construe my saying, "Yeah if someone was recasting our stuff or making a legitimate copy, we would go after them. I would not throw around weak C&Ds and attempts at trial like GW if there was not a case though. " meaning we did or did not get C&Ds, this seems more like your putting words into someones mouth.

Its obvious from your trolling from that other forum to here that you are in fact trolling, so while you are free to have your opinion. I think it is poor form to try to make up lies to convince others to your side of the argument.

That was actually the first post I'd made on any forum about this. I was looking on with a rather candid interest, but I don't like to argue. Since Dakka is my favorite forum, and the poll showed up, I thought I'd chime in.

And for reference, when you say "I wouldn't do X or Y like GW." you're implying that GW has done those things. There's really no other way to take that. That isn't me putting words in your mouth. That's me assuming the words coming out of your mouth meant what you said. If I say "I wouldn't yell like Bob." You are being told in no uncertain terms that Bob does in fact yell. That's just logic.

I had merely intended to answer this poll and be done with it. I am not a troll. I have never been a troll, but being called one is only really cementing my opinion about you, to be honest. Good luck with this. I hope you can continue to profit off of this little quasi-legal business you have going.

-Casa

I do not see your logic that a company who produces something that no one else does is going to set precedent that will cause the downfall of an industry. If in fact CH wins this lawsuit then the only precedent that will be set is that companies can continue to create products that are not being produced by other companies. Your statement is nothing but doomsday grandstanding and is completely illogical and truly not appreciated as all it actually accomplishes is adding fuel to a fire that should never have even been lit in the first place.

The whole argument of IP infringement in this case is foolish. CH produces a product that is able to be used to make a GW product more individualized. Said product is not able to be used by itself. It requires the purchase of a GW product to be used in the first place. GW is NOT producing anything close to the desired range of product that they strive to invent with all of their fluff. The existence of CH and others like them are due to this fact. GW creates a demand and then refuses to meet said demand. The reason for GW's lack of support does not matter.

CH and several others have done items that I feel are the reason for their troubles. CH created a mycetic spore. This is not an item that is intended to modify, but to replace an item that GW does not currently, but may produce. This is ,as I see it, the only actual product that is an issue. Every other item, including the walker tank that looks Tau-like, is not a challenge to GW's bottom line.

I believe that CH and all the other 3rd party companies have a place in the hobby. I feel that the community is a richer one with these companies and the items that they produce. I feel that they need to understand the limits of what they are able to produce so as not to challenge the companies that they rely on to exist on the first place.

So my vote is that I hope CH wins with conditions. This will set the precedent that everyone is seeking and it wont kill a company in the process. I think that this could be accomplished if GW is willing to deal and CH is willing to limit its stock.

Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse? If you want Chapterhouse to lose and go out of business, does that mean you want all these other companies to die as well?




















Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Jack wrote:

The problem here is that there are already plenty of companies doing this, not plagerising GW IP. See Maxmini etc.

The wheel on this thread turns again

Seriously? Have you not Looked at Maxmini's shop? These first two pictures I just posted are from their store. You can't honestly tell me those are not copied from GW's IP can you?

This makes for interesting reading, if you're bothered. Yoinked from another forum http://www.starshipmodeler.com/faq_view.cfm?ID_Num=39

Interesting, I'm getting there with all the different views and opinions, even if I don't agree.

Edit:

To the above, yes. However you are missing the point in that they are generic in their shape and naming. Yes AoW is sailing close to the wind with the Daemon, but it's not called a Bloodletter is it? Fantasy is fantasy, Gamezone also do generic fantasy minis that are not apeing GW IP and a Chaos Rider is a generic term. Salamander Space marine is very specific. The Scibor stuff is also not a direct copy of artwork , the syle is similar but no back pack and the details are sufficiently different.

There wouldn't have been all this fuss if CHS had gone the same way. Again, I hope that this case gets sorted in court sooner rather than later, whichever way it goes.

How are those anything other than generic? GW doesn't have a claim to 'owning' dwarves or centaurs any less than Tolkein...

I voted CH loud and proud.

Why?

I don't see them doing anything illegal. They may have done some stupid things, but nothing illegal.

I am not familiar with the law pertaining to the matter at hand here, so this is just my opinion.

Aduro wrote:Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse?

These figures aren't being sold using Games Workshop trademarks all over their websites.

Panic wrote:yeah,
voted GW.
IMO, Crapterhouse are a bunch of leaches damaging the reputation of this hobby with sub standard bits.
Panic.

Chapterhouse wrote:My salamander space marine army with tons of Chapterhouse Bits and conversion piece won "Best Looking Army" at BOLScon in 2009, this was out of 250+ armies. So either the judges were blind or some people have a biased opinion against CH for other reasons.

Guess, panic was blinded by the awesomeness of these high quality GW sculpts:

I am ashamed of you Kroothawk. How can you post a list of GW failings like that, and not include the Lord of them all? The great and mighty Nagash!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thorgut wrote:

Aduro wrote:Alright, here's one that's been bugging me. People hate CHS because they're making parts for GW figs, and saying they're parts for GW figs. But people are alright when the dozen other companies that make parts for GW figs, but then lie about it and call them random off names. Why? How are these any less stealing GW's IP than Chapterhouse?

These figures aren't being sold using Games Workshop trademarks all over their websites.

So, like I said, you're fine with a company making bitz for GW parts, so long as they lie about it and try to say they're not.

I want to hurt whoever sculpted the minotaurs. So stupid...

And the 'Eavy Metal team can't even fill in the gaps in the arms on those Catachan models, lol...they fit that poorly.

Aduro wrote:So, like I said, you're fine with a company making bitz for GW parts, so long as they lie about it and try to say they're not.

Considering that was my first post on the subject, I'm surprised you stated "like [you] said".
No, I don't require a company to lie. Companies like Max Mini, for instance, don't explicitly state that their parts aren't made for GW models.
However, they don't throw GW trademarks all over their site and there's absolutely no chance people will mistake them for official GW merchandise. If they called what are clearly Ork heads "Freeboota 40K Ork heads", then there might be an issue.

It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".

Sorry but some people really don't know that Chapterhouse might of not intended for it to look like that. Sometimes modelling accidents happen. But in all seriousness, the creator of Starship Troopers should be sueing GW for taking their style for the Cadians as they look very similar. That is what GW is claimed.
It looks too similar to what Chapter House is making, and GW thinks they own this style for the tau. GW may say they can copyright a style. But that also means that GW would be shooting itself in the foot, as other major companies could make a lawsuit upon GW for the styles it has taken.
I am proud that I voted for Chapterhouse, because GW and Forgeworld make too much money already and they keep jacking up the prices, and also the fact that they don't have all the things the customers want. Next GW will be targeting Paper made models and sueing other small companies.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It all teeters on what CH intended. Are they just a bunch of freelancers deciding on making a killing by using GW's trademarks to move their products and make a buck, or are they fellow gamers who saw a need that GW refused to fill, and decided to fill it while only asking for compensation for their efforts? Both examples are, of course, exaggerations. A little disclaimer mentioning that they're not affiliated with GW would help those people who confuse them for official GW products, but they should be allowed to say what the kits are intended for and not need to hide behind calling their stuff like "fantasy Dwarf Monster Killing Hunter" or "Blood drop with Sawblade/Cog decoration".

Again, careful with the wording..haven't made is not the same as refusing to do so.

And they kind of can say what they are intended for, they (or indeed anyone else) can't however do so using trademarks, copyrights and IP not their own. For instance, in Britain if I said 'a Dyson' people would know what I meant. Speciifically, a vacuum cleaner with a vortex thingy-me-bob. And other companies do indeed make vacuum cleaners with a vortex thingy-me-bob, but cannot use the word 'Dyson' in their marketing, as Dyson is a company trading name. Not a great example sure, but sufficient.

Hi all.
People can make suplimentary products to be used with other companies products.

AND they CAN use trademarks to show intended use.

EG
Chapterhouse Studio shoulder pads are designed to fit on 28mm infantry in power armour.
Including Games Workshops Space Marine(tm) and Chaos Space Marine(tm) minatures.

This is a CLEAR case of using a trademark,( atrubted to its owner ), to show intended use.


But calling the product
40k (tm)Space Marine(tm) shoulder pads .
Could be seen as using another companies trademarks to advertise/market them.

I also hope this can be resolved out of court , and allow CHS to continue to trade.

TTFN

I checked the mail and those aforementioned Ymargl heads I ordered came in today. They showed up in a little plastic baggie inside a bubble wrap envelope. There's some flash and mold lines, but nothing particularly terrible or more than what I find on my GW or PP figs, and no divots mismolded areas. Couple dry fits on a genestealer body and they match up perfectly. Can't speak to their resin stuff, but the quality of their pewter is just as good as anything else I've gotten.

Group shot of all 12 heads, followed by an unflattering shot of the two I singled out for having the worst flash.