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ubermosher wrote:Or maybe Phil Kelly knows what coming up in the next Codex... which rumor has it, is Tyranids. After all our complaining that any given codex is nerfed by any subsequent codex, maybe they are actually trying to make sure Space Wolves having something in store for the next army released.

Except that shouldn't be the way to design codexes. And it certainly doesn't help that they managed to:
Make them better in CC than BA (and arguably Khorne Berzerkers)
Make them better at Psychic suppression (and potentially ability) than Eldar
Make them better at Termies than DA
Make them better overall than basic Marines

They also make sure they kill multi-wound creatures (because we all know that multi-wound creatures have a lot going for them )

Now, I say all that with the caveat that this same gnashing of teeth was done before the marine dex as well, and we see how powerful they were (and all the inconsistent rumors).

We'll have to see the actual rules and costs for it all...

Cruentus wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Or maybe Phil Kelly knows what coming up in the next Codex... which rumor has it, is Tyranids. After all our complaining that any given codex is nerfed by any subsequent codex, maybe they are actually trying to make sure Space Wolves having something in store for the next army released.

Except that shouldn't be the way to design codexes. And it certainly doesn't help that they managed to:
Make them better in CC than BA (and arguably Khorne Berzerkers)
Make them better at Psychic suppression (and potentially ability) than Eldar
Make them better at Termies than DA
Make them better overall than basic Marines

They also make sure they kill multi-wound creatures (because we all know that multi-wound creatures have a lot going for them )

Now, I say all that with the caveat that this same gnashing of teeth was done before the marine dex as well, and we see how powerful they were (and all the inconsistent rumors).

We'll have to see the actual rules and costs for it all...

Better in cc than BA I'll grant you. They were also beter in cc than BA in 2nd and 3rd ed. Your point? As for berserkers the only thing that compares is a BC. For 5 pts more the berserker rocks fearless nd extra attack every round not just on the charge, ws 5 vs ws 3 and furious charge. More attacks, at higher init, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's. Yeah berserkers suck compared to SW. Combos with ragnar will change things up and wolf guard are powerful too but I don't think khorne will be too upset here.

Better at psychic supression is restricted to one character. Regular RP's don't even have a psychic hood. And as argued above the one power everyone talks about is really not that uber. It is basically just a slightly different version of mind war.

Better at termies? At 1500 pts with the rumoured pts cost Logan and just some TH/SS termies and nothing else will max out at about 26 terminators. An identical DA force will have about 40 terminators. The DA can deepstrike, the SW can not. I know who I'd pick to win the fight. SW can now do an all termie army but it isn't really competing with DA.

Better than basic marines? Maybe, but I think combat squads helps out marines a lot more than you're taking into account. A SW force averages about 4 scoring units and can only really get more if you're prepared to ignore all the toys entirely. A SM force can run 6 or 8 scoring units easily just due to combat squads.

well... they are all better at shooting then tau....

frgsinwntr wrote:well... they are all better at shooting then tau....

So are my orks.

Seriously guys, they sound like an excellent cc focused MEQ army with a smaller but equally more elite force.

There should be some fun varied builds out of this (mechanised, all cavalry, all wolf guard, all bikes, footslogging big packs with fenrisian wolves up front, drop pod assault, character heavy hero hammer) only a few of which are going to be tourney viable. All this talk that they'll do everything better than everybody else is nonsense and you know it.

Rune Priests don't need a hood. Even basic 100pt Rune Priests stop any successful psychic power on a 4+. That is the wording. So they can only affect things you take a test to use (i.e. warlocks are safe) and they do stop them on a 4+. Njal is basically just better at it. I probably won't be using the straight line power. There are some seriously nasty powers in that book.

What the feth?

Can Phil Kelly for once not write some blatantly overpowered garbage?

First Eldar, then Orks, and now this. Not bad. Three in a row.

I wonder what the army that is winning all the tournaments will be? Blood Claw spam?

And how can these Space Wolf psykers be more powerful than Eldar psykers? How does that even work? As if the Eldar hadn't been nerfed enough, right?

Sigh.

It's really starting to bother me how GW's been making up units that -at the very least- have never been supported by previous fluff. The latest wtf moment I ran into with a codex was psyker battle squads. there's supposed to be one psyker in what? a million? and yet here you are with up to thirty in an army.
now we have not only packs of wolves who are apparently smart enough to follow a battle plan without their own personal dog whisperer but power armored 7 foot tall super soldiers riding WOLVES?
and on top of that our space vikings now have awesome psychic powers and the ability to shut down even the most powerful psykers in the galaxy?

I'd be the first person to tell you that Space wolves need a new codex but they need an Update not ridiculous units based on retconned fluff

/Rant off

old news. the same thing happened in 2nd and 3rd editions; we just got it easy when it came to wolf cheddar in 4th. now it's time to pay the piper. that being said, call me a hypocrit because i'll be using their rules for my BAs. it'll be nice to actually have my tactical squads be useful in close combat again as well as have a physical codex between my fingers.

@Vlad

Eldar aren't winning tournaments regularly especially here in Socal, they have one uber unit (seer council) and that is it. As for SW psykers being more powerful that is purley exaggeration. They are now slightly better than eldar (9/17 succeed if you take the anti-psyker stones) at stopping psychic powers. SW have a 50% chance but don't cause the enemy to hurt himself 7/17% of the time. IF you wanna go fluff you've got guys from a culture that is based around appeasing the gods and protecting yourself from evil spirits. Makes sense they'd be better at protection.

And Orks have dropped a notch to in the last few months as far as winning armies. They had a year of pure win w/one major tourney being based on an idea no one had seen before and the rest of the year being based on people not adjusting to the huge meta-game shift they caused. They certainly aren't broken or uber now.

Having seen the codex I have to say I like it. It gives me the chance to build the Marine list i've always enjoyed (i.e. characterful and uniquely armed squad leaders) that the current codexes have taken from me. The points for most of the gear is very high and will equal out the excellent low cost troops. You'll probably be fielding as many SW's as most marine armies field marines.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:It's really starting to bother me how GW's been making up units that -at the very least- have never been supported by previous fluff.

That's the natural end result of GW's business model. There's only so many times you can release Malibu Stacey with a new hat before people get tired of buying a slightly different version of something they already own.

Look at the current Space Marine Codex - Vanguard, Sternguard, Thunderfire Cannons, Land Speeder Storm, Land Raider Redeemer. All of these are new. Why are they new? Because it simply isn't economically feasible to recut the Tactical Squad or Assault Squad sprues again, and the Commander, Command and Devastator Squad sprues are all very new (comparatively). It was good for the Land Speeder and Scout Bikers, they combine all Land Speeder the kits in one which allows them to eliminate two inventory types from the range (the hybrid Typhoon and Tornado), and also eliminate hybrids which is good for the bottom line and worth the expense of making a set of new moulds.

But could they redo anything else?

The Van/Sternguard and Thunderfire Cannon are all metal, so they're cheaper to make (and if they prove a success they can be redone in plastic next edition). The Redeemer is what made re-doing the Crusader worthwhile. They want to get rid of hybrid kits so they made a new Land Raider type to justify the new sprue (notice the new sprue contains all the accessories, so you don't need to include any of the regular Land Raider sprues other than the body/tracks) and therefore kills two birds with one stone. The Storm was the only true new kit with the Marine Codex - the only plastic release that wasn't re-cut or re-release of something we already had.

Chaos got a recut Marine, replacement Terminators, and actual Possessed Kit. What else did they get? Nothing. Next time around they will probably get a new Bike kit, maybe plastic Raptors and a recut Berzerker sprue, because it wouldn't be worth re-re-doing the Chaos Marine kit again, nor re-cutting the very new Termies or Possessed.

And this is a fine concept. However, when you mix good concepts with GW-level execution, things tend to fall on their ass. Take Guard. Loads of new units. Heaps! Psyker Squads, Penal Legionnaires, 2 new Hellhound types, the Valk, the Vendetta, 5 new types of Russ, 5 new types of artillery, the Hydra. And we got new models for all of... wait... no we didn't. There are no Psyker Models, no Legionnaires, no Vendetta, no Exterminator, Vanquisher or Eradicator. No Griffon. No Colossus, no Deathstrike, no Manticore, no Medusa. No Hydra. Now, some of these were already made by FW (or were going to be in the case of the Vendetta), but GW has never relied on FW to fill the gaps in their Codices before. They only things we did get are a Command Squad to eliminate metal models, a recut Sentinel (which had to include new options and necessitate a new Codex entry to justify the cost of making it all plastic), the Valkyrie (the only true new plastic kit) and new non-hybrid Demolisher and Hellhound kits (and, again, to justify their transfer to plastic they each contain two additional variants - especially the Demolisher as it had already been redone once during the last Codex revision). Where are the rest? Lost to the ether of 'waves' that may or may not ever happen.

With Wolves we have the better situation. They're getting a re-cut 'catch all' sprue that covers all their basic units, similar to the Dark Angel and Black Templar sprues. And they get new Terminators to bring them in line with the current crop. Ok, great. That works fine. They'll sell a million. And luckily they'll mesh with everything in the Marine line that already exists so nothing really needs to be done. Except these Wolves. Even as a metal release ala Blood Crushers it would have worked, but no, we get nothing. We don't get boxes of Wolves either. Are these going to be in Wave 2? Are the Wolves going to even have a second Wave?

Tyranids will be a good test of this. We've heard that we're getting 4 new species. Why? Because they can't redo everything again. Chances are that all but one of these new releases will be metal, as to avoid any serious outlay on materials and the cost of new expensive new plastic moulds. And they have to pull new units out of thin air because after enough cycles everyone owns everything and there's no incentive to buy outside of the 'new hat' re-cuts (that said, re-cut Tyranid Warriors makes perfect sense).

H.B.M.C. wrote: ... but GW has never relied on FW to fill the gaps in their Codices before...

Up until about a year / year and a half ago, Space Marine Drop Pods disagree with this statement. I remember shelling out $300 for a trio of FW pods for my Wolves at the start of 4th ed. Wasn't until the 5th ed release that the plastic pod kit released.

Further, Ork Battlewagons were a DIY/FW kit til the recent kits. While their more recent policy seems to have been "a model for every codex option", it most certainly hasn't always been that way.

The rest of your thesis looks semi solid. As far as unit of wolves, there's always the Fantasy Range Dire Wolves to fall back on (something the 13th Coy players were doing back when EoT popped. I picked up 20 blisters of these when I "graduated" to a 13th Coy army) only drawback is they come as blisters of 2, resulting in them being as expensive as Terminators.
(following not directed at H.B.M.C.)
Also, autonomous wolf packs have been used by 13th Coy, so isn't really a "new" concept. If you want a fluff justification of them, imagine them being let loose at the start of the fight and play them accordingly (if you so desire).

warboss wrote:old news. the same thing happened in 2nd and 3rd editions; we just got it easy when it came to wolf cheddar in 4th. now it's time to pay the piper. that being said, call me a hypocrit because i'll be using their rules for my BAs. it'll be nice to actually have my tactical squads be useful in close combat again as well as have a physical codex between my fingers.

Hypocrite.


Just kidding.



Wait, no I'm not...

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

warboss wrote:old news. the same thing happened in 2nd and 3rd editions; we just got it easy when it came to wolf cheddar in 4th. now it's time to pay the piper. that being said, call me a hypocrit because i'll be using their rules for my BAs. it'll be nice to actually have my tactical squads be useful in close combat again as well as have a physical codex between my fingers.

Hypocrite.


Just kidding.



Wait, no I'm not...

you don't have to be because i wasn't either. i'm just not a die hard SW player who has to invent an imaginary plight of the "poor sw codex" or try to rewrite history to make SW look like sad pandas when the past 10 years have been great for the wolves with only a 5th edition slight below average power level (lasting a tiny bit over a year!) i can smell the gouda and am not afraid to smear it all over my BA marine sandwich! hooray for all the newly christened loganwing and ravenwolf armies! three cheers for the blood wolves! can i get a what!, what! for the black wolf legion and logabaddon grimdespoiler! i suspect we'll be seeing a bunch of "counts as" armies in the FLGS soon.

Well one of my spies has reported that the Space Wolf Codex brings Codex Creep to a "whole new level".

As someone who's never had any real interest in Space Wolves and therefore has no vested interest (beyond the obvious 'it sucks even more now to be a Chaos player' line), all I can say is:

Let the whining begin!!!!!!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well one of my spies has reported that the Space Wolf Codex brings Codex Creep to a "whole new level".

As someone who's never had any real interest in Space Wolves and therefore has no vested interest (beyond the obvious 'it sucks even more now to be a Chaos player' line), all I can say is:

Let the whining begin!!!!!!

I've been ahead of the curve for months. If only people had listened to me earlier, they could have started whining a lot sooner.

I swear the collective memory of 40k fans would embarass a goldfish.

No new army has ever broken the game. No new army has ever been so good that it was unbeatable even after people adjusted to it or the next few codecii were released.

Every new codex, every single bloody one we get cries of "cheese" "broken" "can't phil kelly tone it down" "I may as well sell all my models" and then within three months its back to normal or whining about the next lot.

It wasn't so long ago that you were all predicting that 9 vendettas filled with vets would destory every army on the table without a hope in hell.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong.

Wolves will be fine. Have you seen some of the pts costs? 60pt termies? They'll be a small elite force with units that excel but not many bodies on the field. Like chaos, or daemonhunters. You'll get stomped by them a few times until you learn target priority and how to counter common tactics and then it'll be a level playing field again.

Yeah, what were we thinking? GW has never disappointed us before...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Tyranids will be a good test of this. We've heard that we're getting 4 new species. Why? Because they can't redo everything again. Chances are that all but one of these new releases will be metal, as to avoid any serious outlay on materials and the cost of new expensive new plastic moulds. And they have to pull new units out of thin air because after enough cycles everyone owns everything and there's no incentive to buy outside of the 'new hat' re-cuts (that said, re-cut Tyranid Warriors makes perfect sense).

What I find disheartening about all this is this: There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time. An armylist cannot keep growing and growing forever, so in a sense, in a sense, this feels like the final iteration. There's nothing new they can introduce into the game to make it interesting again after the current crop of remakes is complete. Space Marines already have units for everything.

I get the same feeling for Marines as well.

What do they do next time? 4 more special characters, a re-cut Predator and Assault Squad and... and... what??? Re-cut Dread? Re-cut Bike? You can't base a release of re-cut items. It doesn't work.

Agamemnon2 wrote:There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time.

Unless they don't release some of the new vehicles at all, saving them for the next edition? And plastic Ogryn and Storm Troopers would be next.

[EDIT]: Actually, come to think of it, they can keep pulling new units out of thin air for the rest of time if they're all as stupid as Marines riding Wolves.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Tyranids will be a good test of this. We've heard that we're getting 4 new species. Why? Because they can't redo everything again. Chances are that all but one of these new releases will be metal, as to avoid any serious outlay on materials and the cost of new expensive new plastic moulds. And they have to pull new units out of thin air because after enough cycles everyone owns everything and there's no incentive to buy outside of the 'new hat' re-cuts (that said, re-cut Tyranid Warriors makes perfect sense).

There's nothing new they can introduce into the game to make it interesting again after the current crop of remakes is complete.

The Hrud!

Oh good. Another race to have sit there for years without additional support.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
What I find disheartening about all this is this: There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time. An armylist cannot keep growing and growing forever, so in a sense, in a sense, this feels like the final iteration. There's nothing new they can introduce into the game to make it interesting again after the current crop of remakes is complete. Space Marines already have units for everything.

They'll just go through a "streamlining" phase.
The CSM Codex is still pretty new and I'm sure you can imagine at least a dozen new units that could be included in the next one

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh good. Another race to have sit there for years without additional support.

Bring Squats on their Big Wheels back?

This sounds like another paper tiger. Despite my reservations about the unit, people got very hot and sweaty about Sternguard, and we all know how effective they turned out to be.

I'd be very surprised if this challenges Eldar or Chaos for the GT.

Well last week I came very close to buying an ironclad for my wolves, very glad I didnt now cuz that woulda sucked. The lack of any generic character models is disapointing but the plastic kits will most likley cover that, also was hoping for a new ragnar, sadly no, and, like guard there are a few wolfie units with no mini support as of yet (but not as many as guard).

I feel like the whole of Dakka is locked in a time loop

New Chaos - Lash whine
Orks - horde whine
SM - general spactz marinez whine
Guard - zomzorg tanks whine
Space Wolfs - Njal/Claws whine

A permanent deja vu

His Master's Voice wrote:I feel like the whole of Dakka is locked in a time loop

New Chaos - Lash whine
Orks - horde whine
SM - general spactz marinez whine
Guard - zomzorg tanks whine
Space Wolfs - Njal/Claws whine

A permanent deja vu

Lash is annoying and overpowered and has lead to a massive drop in list diversity for chaos. Whining is justified.
The Horde cause whining mostly because the metagame had to shift. I don't hear that many people whining now, or in fact that many people running horde. The justified whining is that Horde takes an age to play.
SM are widely hated, but as far as I can remember the whining was mostly confined to how bad the fluff bit of the codex was, and a bit about Vulkan being too good. Vulkan lists are the most popular by far, so I guess that wasn't wrong.
Guard - I haven't played it, but I do think the whining here might have been a little pessimistic.

As for wolves, the whining is split into a few different sections, and several of the complaints are perfectly justified. There are plenty of people saying "awesome" too.
People who whine about whining...why?
Of course now I'm causing a potentially infinite recursive loop by whining about people whining about whining...

H.B.M.C. wrote:I get the same feeling for Marines as well.

What do they do next time? 4 more special characters, a re-cut Predator and Assault Squad and... and... what??? Re-cut Dread? Re-cut Bike? You can't base a release of re-cut items. It doesn't work.

Agamemnon2 wrote:There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time.

Unless they don't release some of the new vehicles at all, saving them for the next edition? And plastic Ogryn and Storm Troopers would be next.

[EDIT]: Actually, come to think of it, they can keep pulling new units out of thin air for the rest of time if they're all as stupid as Marines riding Wolves.

Actually, I would guess that what they will do is further plastic-ize the army. Multi-part character boxes, and they will recut sprues to include all the options that should have been included the LAST time they recut the sprue. And they will jack up the prices accordingly.

So in an edition or two we should get a tactical box that has one of every special and one of every heavy weapon, plus an assortment of bitz for the sergeant's options.

Either that, or suddenly marines will all have cavalry. Marines riding space horses? Or marines riding Tyranids?

Seriousness though, here's a few I can think of they haven't done. Enough to fill a couple waves

All in plastic:
Dreadnought drop pod
re-done vehicles with extra armor in plastic
dreadnoughts (need mortis, plasma cannon
Space Marine power armor commander box with every option (missing jump pack, thunder hammers, second lightning claw...)
Space marine terminator armor commander box with every option
Ditto for Chaplains and librarians (one box in power armor, one in terminator armor)
Honor guard boxed set
Master of the forge/techmarine with conversion beamer
Command squad with every option (plenty of CCW missing from that box)

And that's just in the HQ section and a few things off the top of my head. And honestly, they can up costs for all of that, and a good chunk of it I would buy.

Fear not Space Marine players. There is still plenty of things for GW to charge you for.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I swear the collective memory of 40k fans would embarass a goldfish.

No new army has ever broken the game. No new army has ever been so good that it was unbeatable even after people adjusted to it or the next few codecii were released.

Every new codex, every single bloody one we get cries of "cheese" "broken" "can't phil kelly tone it down" "I may as well sell all my models" and then within three months its back to normal or whining about the next lot.

It wasn't so long ago that you were all predicting that 9 vendettas filled with vets would destory every army on the table without a hope in hell.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong.

Wolves will be fine. Have you seen some of the pts costs? 60pt termies? They'll be a small elite force with units that excel but not many bodies on the field. Like chaos, or daemonhunters. You'll get stomped by them a few times until you learn target priority and how to counter common tactics and then it'll be a level playing field again.

Here here . This is one of the most insightful posts I've seen on Dakka in a long time. I feel you've knocked the nail on the head. I remember the Ork codex and the cries of cheese-laden dispair from gamers at my local club, yet after a short while no one thinks any more of it.
Space Wolves are going to be hard as nails, but small on numbers. Plus at 250-ish points I can't see many instances where you're going to come across Njal and his uber psychic-ness.
I'm going to collect Wolves, but I'll also be gaming with my Nids most of the time and I know that most gamers I play who will also do wolves will make a fun army, one fitting with their character, so they should be enjoyable games. I'm looking forward to the challenge of facing a new foe, nothing a Nid horde army like mine loves more then small numbered hardcore armies, c'mon weight of numbers!.
If people do make 'cheesey' army lists then just don't play them.

lord_blackfang wrote:They'll just go through a "streamlining" phase.

Which is to say they'll arbitrarily remove units from the codex, only to reintroduce them in the edition after that. Kind of like they did with exterminators, griffons and vanquishers.

Wannabe Writer wrote:Here here . This is one of the most insightful posts I've seen on Dakka in a long time. I feel you've knocked the nail on the head. I remember the Ork codex and the cries of cheese-laden dispair from gamers at my local club, yet after a short while no one thinks any more of it.

I wouldn't call that insight per se, it's really nothing more than the constant "No, everything is fine!" mewling we've been subjected since time immemorial, when GW removed Genestealer Cults and Arbites.