Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi Dakka. So, I have been playing a few games with my Sternguard recently, and they have done ok. So, I would like to try out a Vanguard themed army (Tourney) and wondered how they would work in a 1000 point Tournament. I would be running one HQ from the Badab war that allows Vanguard to count as scoring units, and makes Flamers and Heavy Flamers TL. So, how would my Vanguard best be used in a 1k Tourney?

The trouble with using Vanguard in numbers is they get expensive, and to be worth those points you need to make full use of Heroic Intervention. That means reserving them, and it also means tooling out the units to be able to deal with anything they may come across. For me that means melta bombs, a couple of power weapons and probably a fist too.

To get maximum footprint for your slots I'd suggest going for a 10-man unit and combat-squadding them if necessary, rather than running 5-man units.

You're not going to have an awful lot on the board as a whole, and even less deployed to start, so you need some durable units to weather the storm until they arrive - if you get wiped out before your reserves turn up, you've lost. But the Terminators I'd normally suggest for this are not only just as expensive but vying for the same Elite slot.
Instead, some Scouts with camo cloaks and Telion deployed in cover should do the trick for some 2+ cover saves.

You're going to have trouble with scoring units with so many Vanguard in only 1000 points. So take some cheap but mobile Troop choices. That's either Scouts in a Land Speeder Storm, or 5-man Tacticals in a Rhino or Razorback. Try to keep them out of harms' way as they'll be pretty easy to take out. Keep a particular eye out for any outflankers or Deep Strikers your opponent has held back.

Lastly I would suggest a Librarian for your HQ unit. This opens up another mobility option with Gate of Infinity, which could save you points on a transport. Null Zone will also be handy to target any particularly hard-hitting characters that rely on an Inv save. Give him a combi-weapon or a storm bolter so that he can contribute fire in the Shooting phase too.

________

...I've thought up another, more esoteric option as well, though it will drastically change the way the army deploys and plays and might not really fit with the Vanguard theme - see what you think.
Bikes!
A Bike Captain will allow you to take Bikers as Troops, giving you durable, fast, scoring units. The problem is you'll have even less models to play with.

 Super Ready wrote:
The trouble with using Vanguard in numbers is they get expensive, and to be worth those points you need to make full use of Heroic Intervention. That means reserving them, and it also means tooling out the units to be able to deal with anything they may come across.

That is exactly backwards. Heroic Intervention lets you choose the target, so choose something vulnerable. If you take additional equipment, it just goes to waste.

Don't take them in large numbers. When you Deep Strike, they are placed in rings. An eighth member lets you start a new ring, which you can place close to your target, effectively increasing your range.

Though your Vanguard may be scoring, you can't use them as the core of the army. Even before additional equipment, 8 Vanguard are a quarter your point allotment. So what equipment you do take will depend on the rest of your army. Vanguard are typically used as backfield clearers, since it takes virtually no additional equipment to overwhelm stationary tanks and heavy weapons teams. If you're vulnerable to elite assault units or monsterous creatures, prepare exclusively for that.

 Super Ready wrote:

<snip some good advice>
...but vying for the same Elite slot.

If we are talking about codex marines, Vanguard are FA picks. I'm not sure where they are in the BA book (which is what you should probably be using)

Scout bikers with locator beacons might be a good choice if you want to showcase the heroic intervention.

Vanguard with 3 power swords, 2 power axes and all having melta bombs (5 man squads) works very well if you have locator beacons on the field, or playing blood angels with their reduced scatter rule.

Don't field more than 5 in a squad, and if you're taking one unit, you might as well take 2 units of 5 for added support. The charge from one of these will be enough to put the hurt on next to anything.

How about in a 2000 point list?

The problem is you are asking advice on how to use one of the worst units in the codex in a competitive environment. A large point scale might help, as there are more units out there to help pick up the slack, but I'm not sure if that's enough.

My first advice is to switch to BA. I hear they can do interesting things with jump armies, but personally haven't touched their codex since 3rd edition.

Second, if you want to stick with codex, what's the deal with the special character you want to use? And is he even going to be allowed in the tournament?

(for the 1k list)
I'd include 2x 5 man units of vanguard. Some upgrades, but not over the top. Try to keep them circa 200 points. You want them to be the focus of the army, so you need to take more then one.

your 3rd FA slot should be scout bikers with a beacon. Should run you around 125pts.

MM dread in a pod w/beacon. Could upgrade to an Ironclad if you have spare points. The idea being drop and pop a transport, and have the Vanguards bat cleanup on anything in the DZ. ~150pts. These can be any suicide unit in a pod, but they need to be threatening enough so your opponent doesn't just ignore them and pop the pod.

2 minimal troop picks. I'd like these to be more robust, but hard to do and keep all the parts you need to make the army work. But hey, your vanguards can score. Depending on how expensive the character is, this might just have to be 2x 5 man sticks of sniper scouts.

The basic concept is ram a few locator beacons into your opponent's deployment zone, have the Vanguard drop, and butcher everything in the area. Given more points, I'd go to 3 pods, and probably go double FOC, for more scout bikers. I'm not sure if you would be better served getting more vanguards, or just beefing up the two squads. The home base needs to be shored up as well. If your vanguards can score, you can focus your troops on being a solid gun line, as they no longer need to worry about sallying forth to grab objectives.

 DarkHound wrote:
That is exactly backwards. Heroic Intervention lets you choose the target, so choose something vulnerable. If you take additional equipment, it just goes to waste.

I respectfully disagree on one basis - the small size of the force. If you're going to theme a 1000 points army around Vanguard, they're going to be a sizeable chunk of your total force. So you need them to be useful for more than one assault. By all means pick a vulnerable target to start, but have them move onto another a turn or two after.

Nevelon wrote:If we are talking about codex marines, Vanguard are FA picks.

Bugger - so they are. They're FA in Blood Angels also. Well, I guess that makes Termies an option again!

How about using them in character assassinations? Either that, or taking out big targets.

 Nevelon wrote:
The problem is you are asking advice on how to use one of the worst units in the codex in a competitive environment. A large point scale might help, as there are more units out there to help pick up the slack, but I'm not sure if that's enough.

My first advice is to switch to BA. I hear they can do interesting things with jump armies, but personally haven't touched their codex since 3rd edition.

Second, if you want to stick with codex, what's the deal with the special character you want to use? And is he even going to be allowed in the tournament?

(for the 1k list)
I'd include 2x 5 man units of vanguard. Some upgrades, but not over the top. Try to keep them circa 200 points. You want them to be the focus of the army, so you need to take more then one.

your 3rd FA slot should be scout bikers with a beacon. Should run you around 125pts.

MM dread in a pod w/beacon. Could upgrade to an Ironclad if you have spare points. The idea being drop and pop a transport, and have the Vanguards bat cleanup on anything in the DZ. ~150pts. These can be any suicide unit in a pod, but they need to be threatening enough so your opponent doesn't just ignore them and pop the pod.

2 minimal troop picks. I'd like these to be more robust, but hard to do and keep all the parts you need to make the army work. But hey, your vanguards can score. Depending on how expensive the character is, this might just have to be 2x 5 man sticks of sniper scouts.

The basic concept is ram a few locator beacons into your opponent's deployment zone, have the Vanguard drop, and butcher everything in the area. Given more points, I'd go to 3 pods, and probably go double FOC, for more scout bikers. I'm not sure if you would be better served getting more vanguards, or just beefing up the two squads. The home base needs to be shored up as well. If your vanguards can score, you can focus your troops on being a solid gun line, as they no longer need to worry about sallying forth to grab objectives.

Thanks for the advice! As for the special character, I don't have to use him, just thought it would be nice to have my Vanguard scoring.

That's a point I meant to make earlier. What special character makes Vanguard scoring? I'm not aware of any - there are none in the SM or BA codexes, is it Forgeworld by any chance?

Yes, it is Forgeworld.

I use 5 man vanguard teams with a thunder hammer, LC and SS on Srg, and melta bombs for all but the TH guy. They drop down (BA scatter only 1 D6) and take out armor.

How successful are they when they drop down? Do they die often, or actually take out some big targets?

 Super Ready wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:
That is exactly backwards. Heroic Intervention lets you choose the target, so choose something vulnerable. If you take additional equipment, it just goes to waste.

I respectfully disagree on one basis - the small size of the force. If you're going to theme a 1000 points army around Vanguard, they're going to be a sizeable chunk of your total force. So you need them to be useful for more than one assault. By all means pick a vulnerable target to start, but have them move onto another a turn or two after.

Actually I feel they need to be ready for anything as you can not guarantee what you will need to hit. Yes, you choose what to hit but it will be whatever the enemy has left in the open. It could be mech, MEQ, TEQ, pretty much anything.
In a non 1000 point tournament combat squads can help getting a balance of threats, though 5th edition combat squad rules were better.

I would not take shooty weapons. Do you have combat tactics?

They are/will be expensive for BA, where they just about cool. So for vanilla marines is hard to justify, if they are scoring this leads to other thoughts, like sing heroic int. and just using them nearly as a better tactical squad role.

The Forgeworld Character replaces Combat Tactics with the ability to make Vanguard and Assault Squads scoring, as well as make Flamers and Heavy Flamers Twin Linked.

Anyone else? I can also use Assault squads as Scoring units, would that be better?

 Iron Father 575 wrote:
The Forgeworld Character replaces Combat Tactics with the ability to make Vanguard and Assault Squads scoring, as well as make Flamers and Heavy Flamers Twin Linked.

Hold up what.

Which character?

If you're talking about Shadow Captain Korvydae, he just makes assault squads troops.

All that stuff sounds wild.

Elam Courbray from the Badab war. He has other rules, too. Most players at my GW allow and are fine with FW stuff.

I wouldn't even take more than 5. Take the minimum squad size (5) and add on a couple PW. At 2k you *could* run a couple of such squads which be a cheap way of taking out HWS/Tanks/similar things


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As Blood Angels so you get DoA and Red Thirst potentially.

Yes, and BA only scatter 1D6. So how about Assault Squads. The FW character (Elam Courbray) makes them scoring too.

Assault squads can't assault if they deep strike, they are cheaper though. you still need to take a couple of cheap troop choices though, he only makes them scoring, not troop choices.

Deep striking assault squads make great cover for deep striking DC.

I still think a couple DSing squads of Vanguard are worthwhile in a BA army at higher points simply because of the potential chaos and damage they can inflict. Take them nearly barebones and in a 2k list you could field 3 of them for under 500 pts and you could potentially wipe out multiple vehicles and non MEQ shooty squads in the turn they come in on.

How about two five man squads with a TH/SS on the Sergeant, and a PF? Then I could go and take out tanks.

I don't if bothering with the SS is worth it. A PF+TH or two PFs should be enough for tank hunting. Get 6 s8 attacks + krak grenades.

More food for thought regarding VV from C:SM or C:BA debate. In C:BA the base cost for a five man squad is 115 while for C:SM its 125. The equipment costs are identical except for storm shields, BA pay 20 points per while vanilla marines pay 15 per. Also, BA can take infernus pistols and hand flamers in their weapon selections. When combined with their Decent of Angels and Red Thirst special rules, I'd vote for BA if moving towards a VV themed army.

How about Sergeant Culln from the Amphelion Project? Allows Vanguard squad to reroll to hit, and has a Relic Blade and an extra wound.

If your running the forgeworld captain I'm thinking of (Can't remember his name, but he's really cool), then your going to need to run C:SM. I always think vanguards are best used in conjuctions with droppods. If your playing 1k pts, I think your best bet would be to use 2 droppod tactical squads, one 5man assault squad as an escort for the HQ and one 5man vangaurd squad as cleanup(outfit them for combat, but don't forget to give 1-2 of them meltabombs to be able to deal with vehicles too.) Probably have to go with 5man tactical squads with Srg w/ combi/flamer. If you can fit a 10man squad, great! Give them a flamer/multimelta and a srg with a combi/flamer. If you could fit one dev squad with plasma cannons or missle launchers, it would help, but in 1k pts I think your out of luck.

Are you thinking of Elam Courbray? I might not take an Assault squad with him, so as to spend the rest on Vanguard to make them Scoring. So, from what your saying, this is the list I had in mind.

Elam Courbray-185

Tactical Squad-185
Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Drop Pod-35

Tactical Squad-185
Lascannon, Plasma Gun
Drop Pod-35

Vanguard Squad-180
5 Vets with Jump Packs, Meltabombs, PF

Vanguard Squad-180
5 Vets with Jump Packs, Meltabombs, PF

Essentially supposed to be a friendly list. And that leaves me with 15 points left to spend. Maybe Combi-Weapon on one of my Tac squads?