New rumours on Chaos Legions (latest on pages 30, 32 and 34; compilation in first post)

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**Durza**

I'm just interested in the bit about the Alpha Legion now... controlling enemy units sounds fun.

**whitedragon**

Tentatively interested in World Eaters....although definitely not interested in rolling a D6 every turn for my berzerkers. That sounds like a bad deal.

Also, if berzerkers or assault berzerkers can't get access to any weapons besides Plasma Pistols, then they will still be pretty much the same as the current book. Unless 6th edition really shakes up the vehicle meta, the berzerkers will be riding in their Rhino's vs jump packing. A "Descent of Blood" type army mimicing Blood Angels will be pretty terrible if all the World Eaters have to shoot are bolt pistols/plasma pistols!

Very much interested in Characters, Demon Princes, Cult Terminators, non Crazed marked Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders and Demon Engines. It may not matter what the berzerkers have if everything else is awesome.

Blood for the Blood God and all that.

**DarkStarSabre**

I have a bizarre dream based on what's hinted by the Cult special units.

I have the dream of Descent of BloodForTheBloodGod and PlagueWing armies.

I might not feel so bad about the FW DG Terminator kits if that's the case.

**Samus_aran115**

Wonder if we'll be able to have T6 bikers this edition

Actually, if chaos doesn't get some sort of special bike stuff, bikes will still be as useless as last edition. Unless of course they get a price deduction. 33 points was outrageous.

**boyd**

I am hoping the Word Bearers are still a viable force. I liked how in the last Chaos Codex, they were non-existent with the exception of 2 pictures. Every other Legion was represented with the little picture and a sentence of fluff... the Word Bearers who brought each other Legion into the fold of Chaos didn't even get the same treatment or a sentence in the fluff section of the codex. I am hoping they can field Lesser Demons the same way as Codex Chaos in addition to marked demons? Something that would make them truly unique. Right now they are just the other other red chaos marines that used to have black armor...

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Samus_aran115 wrote:>DOOMRIDER

shdgfygskufb Everything else is irrelevant.

I hear he does cocaine.

**His Master's Voice**

Durza wrote:I'm just interested in the bit about the Alpha Legion now... controlling enemy units sounds fun.

Didn't fzorgle prove beyond any doubt that controlling your opponent's units is a bad mechanic?

**aka_mythos**

Durza wrote:I'm just interested in the bit about the Alpha Legion now... controlling enemy units sounds fun.

I wouldn't be surprised if works just like the current Slaaneshi ability to move units... which might imply slaanesh armies losing that option.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:>DOOMRIDER
shdgfygskufb Everything else is irrelevant.

I hear he does cocaine.

No, no, he does *clear throat* co-co-co-caine.

**Anung Un Rama**

His Master's Voice wrote:
Durza wrote:I'm just interested in the bit about the Alpha Legion now... controlling enemy units sounds fun.
Didn't fzorgle prove beyond any doubt that controlling your opponent's units is a bad mechanic?

I still don't get where that name came from.

**Durza**

Why does fzorgle mean Lash of Submission?

**Da Boss**

His Holiness Triggerbaby gifted us the true meaning of fzorgle in one of his better posts.

**NoArmorSave**

Harriticus wrote:Of all things Chaos (and I operate a very large Chaos army of not only CSM but also Daemons and Forgeworld Renegade models) I found the Fiend of Slaanesh the biggest bitch to put together. Got so frustrating I just fused it together with a soldering iron. Take that metal.

"Got so frustrating I just fused it together with a soldering iron."

ROFLMAO Har har har.

You need to use super glue accelerator dude. It makes working with metal models a breeze.

**Vaktathi**

Brother-Captain Scotti wrote:Being an iron warriors fan, if the rumors were true, I'd be over the moon but rumors are rumors for a reason

Still no mention of a basilisk though, guess they are saving that for the traitor guard..... *sigh*

As an Iron Warriors player, I'm ok with not having a bassy option, they were always portrayed as being crewed and operated by normal human troops, chaos auxilia like those portrayed in Storm of Iron and Dead Sky Black Sun, which are best represented in Apocalypse games. Never liked the idea of just nabbing units from another codex (and not a huge fan of the idea of TH/SS termi's either, in their current incarnation they're just too good and point-click and I'd rather not have Iron Warriors become the "counts-as" force of choice for C:SM codex hoppers)

But I'm also bitter and cynical.

(oh wait, that may be why I play IW's...)

**geordie09**

I'm worried... I have a horrible feeling that all my favourite chaos units will be raped and a load of new ones that have expensive finecost minis will be introduced to replace them.

GW, if you're going to play with berserkers, please just give them some better pistol options. I don't want to see them weaker, or stronger, just a bit of flexibility and no randomness... and if chaos dreads are brought into line with the SM options for wargear that'd be good too whether they keep the rage roll or not...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, and bring back 2's to hit vehicles with Gorechild... too many Land Raiders have escaped the mica dragon teeth since that little piece of errata...

**lord_blackfang**

geordie09 wrote:I'm worried... I have a horrible feeling that all my favourite chaos units will be raped

Show me on this Plague Marine where the bad GW touched you

**Kroothawk**

The Dude over at Warseer made this summary (some new info included in the summary is attached in original quotes):

General information:

Ghost21 reports that the plan is for 3 Chaos books. Legions, Renegades and Daemons

Daemons are already covered, so the next book will cover the Chaos Legions, with a future Renegades codex incorporating all manner of traitor humans, mutants and Marines-gone-bad.

ghist21 thinks this Legions book will be 1st or 2nd book after 6th edition, which is being released July 2012, putting the release around October-November 2012

Harry supports this, saying:

I do think CSM are the first sixth edition book but not sure if they come just before or just after 6th edition.

theDarkGeneral contradicts this, saying he has heard of 3 separate Legions books with an even split of Legions in each. He claims 2 are planned for release in 2012 and the third for early 2013. He further claims a “Lost and the Damned” style book and a “largely Daemon-based” campaign book are in the works for after that.

theDarkGeneral was supposedly given the Legion split breakdown as:
*World Eaters, Word Bearers and Nightlords
*Deathguard, Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children
*Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion and Black Legion

Mat Ward is rumoured to be writing the codex.

Minor Gods will make an appearance and all Legions will be included

The minor Gods are named, and will act in a similar way to marks, but have no Daemons.

Background:
Ghost21 tells us the background has been expanded and improved so that Legions and their worship of the Gods is far less one-dimensional.

Rules:
Each Legion will have something unique to them, but will have unit restrictions to offset their inherent bonuses.

Ghost21 further clarifies by saying World Eaters may be restricted to 1 Havoc squad, but could potentially take more by “trading in” something else.

theDarkGeneral tells us:

it won't change according to your Legion (HQs) as in swapping more Heavies for less Fast, but your access to units in those categories opens up, becomes limited, or closes off accordingly. Easy example I was given, is taking Khorne Daemon Prince means no Scouts...

And goes on to say the following about the different Legions:

*Nightlords: I don't ask much about them, though a lil' i have for my buddy Paul has around 25,000+ points of them...Hit & Run and Stealth for universal special rules, but possible counter attack (for elite unit) as well as jump pack troops.

*Word Bearers: Apparently getting a lil' extra attention, and besides Dark Apostles, new models for "daemonancers", which just might be unit champs/sgt upgrades. I'm not sure. BUT, their summoning of Daemons from the Warp apparently allows re-rolls on the scatter dice, as well as new mishap chart!

*Deathguard: Feel no pain and blight grenades for their Cult Terminators, new nasty flamers upgrades.

*Thousand Sons: AP3 bolters will be MUCH more useful under 6th Edition, and a couple new Psychic abilities, one of which (supposedly) can remove an entire enemy squad from the table on a failed stat test!

*Iron Warriors: Access to Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield termies, thunderfire cannon off-shoot, Havocs w/Tank Hunters and relentless for some squad...

*Emperor's Children: Lash is finally changed to be more in line with Daemon version. More heavy weapons upgrade count for larger units. Better Bikes? Not sure what that means...

*Alpha Legion: Lots of infiltrating abilities, outflanking, and even temporary control of enemy squads/vehicles...basically sneaky bastards!

*Black Legion: HQs allow broader access to all unit types, but lack of better universal special rules.

Ghost21 tells us Chaos units have built in negatives depending on the God. It is unclear if these are just Cult Troops, or all Marked units.

Nurgle units can’t perform Sweeping Advances and are what he refers to as “stoic” (possibly meaning slow and purposeful)

Khorne has to “engage in some kind of combat every turn” (not sure what this means ie does shooting count?) or roll on a D6 table and suffer some random penalty

Tzeentch require a “command figure” (likely Sorcerer) or will act based on a random D6 roll

Slaanesh are described only as having “very harsh results”

theDarkGeneral says Nurgle Flamers can be made poisoned 3+ or even 2+ (possibly through a special character).

HQ

Special Characters:
ghost21 tells us characters will supposedly be very powerful, including the “Red Angel” from this artwork

Although ghost21 goes on to say he hasn’t seen a named Warsmith character, only a Dark Mechanicus one.

theDarkGeneral claims we will see the return of Droomrider, Doombreed, and Cypher as well as another 5 new characters. This does not preclude any or all existing special characters being included.

theDarkGeneral also tells us there will be a Slaaneshi Dreadnaught special character.

theDarkGeneral reports that Ahriman will be better due to new Chaos Psychic powers as well as "some kind of guaranteed psychic ability that can't be stopped via Psychic Hoods, etc"

Elites

theDarkGeneral tells us Chaos Dreadnaughts will no longer act randomly, and are able to take marks, but will not be able to be Venerable.

theDarkGeneral claims Possessed will be improved and supposedly have upgrades either already included or that you can pay for.

ghost21 tells us there will be a "gladiator themed" World Eater unit

ghost21 also says Emperor's Children will have access to a unit described as "soul shieldsman" which is possibly an upgrade for Veterans.

Troops

theDarkGeneral implies there will be some kind of “Scout unit” which will not be available to World Eaters.

God-specific Daemons will likely be included, but ghost21 is only sure of the lesser varieties (Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, Daemonettes & Horrors) and not the greater ones
theDarkGeneral claims Daemons will remain as they are in the Daemons Codex, but with slight points adjustments to reflect the ability to summon them and certain 6th edition changes.

Fast Attack

theDarkGeneral claims “Assault Berzerkers” with jump packs will be available as Fast Attack choices.

ghost21 tells us Doomrider will be a unit upgrade (presumably for Bike squads)

theDarkGeneral mentions a new unit called Brazen Knights consiting of "Skull Champions" (possibly super Khornate CSM Champions) riding Juggernauts

Heavy Support

theDarkGeneral tells us Slaughterfiends from Apoc will be available, as well as versions for other Legions and Marks.

theDarkGeneral reports Obliterators maximum unit size is increased to 4

theDarkGeneral says most types of Daemon Engines can be taken as 3 per FOC slot

theDarkGeneral claims Legions will get a new Landraider pattern with a higher transport capacity (possibly 15) and is described as a "warped version of one of the Imperial versions”

Marked Legions are rumoured to get Havocs

theDarkGeneral has also hinted at the possibility of a new Monstrous Creature that is not a Greater Daemon. No further info is available as yet.

Dedicated Transports

No news as yet

Miniatures:

Plastic Dreadnaught rumoured by both ghost21 and theDarkGeneral. TheDarkGeneral claims it will include multiple Dreadnought close combat weapons types, such as the Chainfist, Thunder Hammer, Power Scourge, etc.

Plastic Plague Bearers rumoured to appear in the 6th edition started

Plastic Raptors have been confirmed by the ever-reliable 75hastings69 who said:

I can add to this that the new plastic Raptors are very nice

Abaddon – ghost21 claims this miniature is almost identical to the existing one, but “bulkier and taller”

Little Horus - ghost21 reports seeing a miniature for this guy, and implies it is very good

ghost21 also claims to have spotted a miniature for a Dark Mechanicus character, but is unsure if he will make it to release. He described it as:

a very creepy sculpt based on a john Blanche piece

theDarkGeneral wrote:I should probably start probing my buddies for more info on other Legion stuff.

Something interesting that i've forgotten to mention, is that Apocalypse has really helped changed 40K in general, and much of it's popularity is spilling over into the upcoming 6th Edition Rule Book as well as upcoming Codexes. This of course included many newish rules and models...couple years back I was told of plastic kits made for both the Warhound Titan and the Thunderhawk assault ship...but apparently either the world wide economy slipping stopped their production, or the problematic 6 sprue count for boxed sets.

What does this spell for Chaos? Thus far many of the staff/play testers are liking the idea of Hell Blades for the Chaos Legions, mostly to help counter act much of the new "fliers" coming out. Supersonic is a cool rule.

I find it very interesting that both ghost21 and I have heard about 3 Chaos Codexes to be released within the next year or so. My info says 3 Chaos Legions per Codex (with a possible 2 later Chaos type Codexes), and his is that of a Legions, a Lost and the Damned, then Daemons. Either way, looks like us Chaos folk are in for some good times and models i'm sure!

Onto other items i've forgotten...(again peeps, salt with 'em)...

*No Venerables: Even if we do get the Slaaneshi Dread special character, we'll still be denied access to venerable dreads.

*Nurgle Flamers: Yeah, I guess they can be poisoned 3+ or even 2+ (special character?).

*Ahriman: I believe someone on the original thread asked about him. Yeah, he gets better, partially because of the new Psychic powers that Chaos gains. He also supposedly has some kind of guaranteed psychic ability that can't be stopped via Psychic Hoods, etc.

*Monstrous Beast: Now, this is intriguing, because my one buddy says to expect a large, monstrous creature type for Chaos besides the Greater Daemons...??? Now what Legion uses anything like that? Maybe a hint towards ghost21's info of The Lost and the Damned???

*Brazen Knights: Skull Champions riding a top Juggernauts.

h75hastings69 wrote:I can add to this that the new plastic Raptors are very nice

ghost21 wrote:Dude, I mentioned like a gladiator themed world eater unit.
And doomrider is a unit upgrade (personally I hate doomrider).
And Emperor's Children get something like soul shieldsman (an upgrade for veterans I think).

Ghost any other special units for specific cults besides the gladiator ones? Sorry for asking more than once, but any new plastic cult troops on the horizon?

I really wish I could say yes, only plague marines I believe.
Believe me: I want plastic noise marines but I haven't seen any.
Nurgle gets kinda bikes, but really with their stoic rule I have no idea why you'd want to.

Be aware that I don't play Chaos, don't follow these rumours and am just copying what shows up in that thread.

**lasgunpacker**

It is possible that there are three books coming, and that they are about Traitor Marines, Lost and the Damned, and Daemons... and that there are also three books with three legions each. Each book simply has the "special" rules for three legions, and then generic rules for whatever the main subject is.

So for example, the Traitor marines book has generic rules for Marines, and has Black Legion, L&D has generic rules for various traitor guard, etc, and has Alpha Marines, and the Daemon book has Daemons and has Word Bearers.

Not likely, but it could be that way.

**NoArmorSave**

geordie09 wrote:I'm worried... I have a horrible feeling that all my favourite chaos units will be raped and a load of new ones that have expensive finecost minis will be introduced to replace them.

GW, if you're going to play with berserkers, please just give them some better pistol options. I don't want to see them weaker, or stronger, just a bit of flexibility and no randomness... and if chaos dreads are brought into line with the SM options for wargear that'd be good too whether they keep the rage roll or not...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, and bring back 2's to hit vehicles with Gorechild... too many Land Raiders have escaped the mica dragon teeth since that little piece of errata...

"I don't want to see them weaker, or stronger,"

They will be stronger dude. I can virtually guarantee it. They are the main assault infantry of the chaos space marines, and need to be able to keep pace with the Space Wolves, Blood Angels,
and Grey Knights. I would expect them to gain rending as an example.

**H.B.M.C.**

I just don't buy this 'minor God' thing. I have my reasons, and I'd like to be proven wrong here, but I just don't see that one ringing true.

**candy.man**

I’m a bit hesitant at the multi codex rumour. As awesome as it sounds, it sounds almost too good to be true. That being said, the rumours in general regarding the Chaos Codex amount have been ever changing:

1. Firstly it was 2 codices (Legions and Renegades), with LATD not getting a book.
2. Secondly it was 3 codices (Legions, Renegades and Daemons), with Renegades being more of a LATD type book.
3. Now its 5 codices (3 legion books, Renegades and Daemons).

Lastly, the rumours for the codex writer have been fairly inconsistent. At first it was Phill (via gamesday comment), then it was Matt (via rumour), then it was Phill again (via someone who spoke to Jervis/Matt at gamesday) and now it’s Matt again. Something tells me either a) they are working on different legion books (since there are apparently 3), b) GW is running a misinformation campaign or c) these new rumours are wrong.

**ph34r**

I dread the concept of a 5 book release. That would mean large portions of chaos players not getting their rules for years from now yet.

On the other hand it would be balanced against the half dozen loyalist books we have

**aka_mythos**

So far it really seems Khorne and Slaanesh have the most units mentioned so far, nurgle more than Tzeentch but still not as many as the first two. I wonder if there is simply more we haven't heard for the last two yet. That said:

What does this spell for Chaos? Thus far many of the staff/play testers are liking the idea of Hell Blades for the Chaos Legions, mostly to help counter act much of the new "fliers" coming out. Supersonic is a cool rule.

Anyone else think that Tzeentch should get some sort of special Doomwing like variant of the Hellblade?

It really seems like the book will have enough options that regardless of your chosen legion there will be a couple of ways to compose your army. I think that's the best part of it.

*Monstrous Beast: Now, this is intriguing, because my one buddy says to expect a large, monstrous creature type for Chaos besides the Greater Daemons...??? Now what Legion uses anything like that? Maybe a hint towards ghost21's info of The Lost and the Damned???

I'm going to guess some sort of "greater chaos spawn".

**iproxtaco**

I don't buy the whole 'three legion books' rumour at all. If this even exists, which I think it does, it'll be in one book, with a LatD/Marines gone bad to replace the current one further down the line.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can see GW doing Noise-Marines and Thousand Sons in finecast, with Plague Marines and Beserkers in plastic. Raptors too, but I doubt anything else will get an update if it's not new.

**Samus_aran115**

*World Eaters, Word Bearers and Nightlords
*Deathguard, Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children
*Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion and Black Legion

I can see that what they're going for.

One really easy all comers legion per Book (BL, WB and IW)
One powerhouse army (WE, DG and TS)
One "tacticool" army (NL, EC and AL).

That's a good idea, because it'll probably sell more books than if Black Legion, World Eaters and Death Guard were all in the same book

Also, I sincerely doubt that every legion won't get at least one 'new' unit. It might not be as significant as juggernaut riders or a slaaneshi dreadnought (Like warsmiths and Dark Apostles, which are eh), but I'm willing to bet that every legion will get something new.

I agree that Khorne seems to be getting a lot of attention, but we can only hope that the other legions get as much, if not more

**candy.man**

That is an interesting analysis Samus and something that I missed. The only issue is that gameplay wise, those 3 legions fit together however thematically they’re apples and oranges. However this is only an issue when it comes to the name of the book.

I honestly don’t see how they will name the three books. I’m guessing the naming constraints for the book will be something like Chaos Legions: Volume 1.

As Ph34r has pointed out, if this rumour is true it means CSM player will have to wait 1.5 years before all of the books are released. More books also means a greater opportunity for external balance issues (as recent codices tend to be internally balanced but not externally). Personally I think rather than write 3 full blown codices, they should write 1 legion codex with perhaps the two being codex supplements for the specialised legions.

**Samus_aran115**

candy.man wrote:That is an interesting analysis Samus and something that I missed. The only issue is that gameplay wise, those 3 legions fit together however thematically they’re apples and oranges. However this is only an issue when it comes to the name of the book.

I honestly don’t see how they will name the three books. I’m guessing the naming constraints for the book will be something like Chaos Legions: Volume 1.

As Ph34r has pointed out, if this rumour is true it means CSM player will have to wait 1.5 years before all of the books are released. More books also means a greater opportunity for external balance issues (as recent codices tend to be internally balanced but not externally). Personally I think rather than write 3 full blown codices, they should write 1 legion codex with perhaps the two being codex supplements for the specialised legions.

Yeah, they can't really call it much besides "Chaos Legions Volume 1" or give them cliche names like "Chaos Legions: Doom bringers" or "Chaos legions: Hammer of the gods"...

Also, tackling the issue of "special" special characters (Like Cypher and fabius bile, characters that have no particular affiliation) is more complicated. Furthermore, Marks seem to have little purpose in such tight restrictions. Obviously World Eaters are going to be khorne, Death Guard are going to be Nurgle, etc. That leaves a maximum of two armies that can utilize marks. That doesn't seem like it would be worthwhile to even add the marks at that point.

We'll see. GW might be making a mistake by separating them, but I can also see plenty of positives from it. The renegades book will undoubtedly cover a lot of the missing bases that arise (Like basilisks that everyone wants so badly for their IW)

**aka_mythos**

I can't see GW doing three legion books. Its difficult enough, as it is, to believe they'd do three chaos books in total... to believe 3 legion books means, Daemons and Renegade would pretty much be ignored... all the while we'd have to believe GW would be taking a drastically different approach.

iproxtaco wrote:I can see GW doing Noise-Marines and Thousand Sons in finecast, with Plague Marines and Beserkers in plastic. Raptors too, but I doubt anything else will get an update if it's not new.

I don't know if its so clear cut... aside from Berserkers that are already in plastic the others are justifiable either way. Noise-marines and Plague marines both have weapon options of different sorts and thus benefit from plastic... the thousands sons could be plastic as well with all the optional bits being for a plastic sorcerer. At the same time, the organic look of plague marines are the type of details that can really shine with finecast and tend to be made in smaller sized squads; the uniform nature of Thousand sons make it easy for GW to sculpt two or three poses and include just alternate heads; Noise marines have been portrayed with various details that the sculpts have never done justice, but finecast would allow, their small squad size coupled with the repetition of special weapons also lends itself to the type of basic finecast kit.

I tend to think Plague Marines should be finecast... the other two breakeven with either medium and thus I'd say it depends what manufacturing capacity GW has after it starts all the other new kits. We really have to think of it as alternative cost... getting each plastic cult marine kit means a more significant wait for the other new Chaos kits and without pre-existing kits to stand in for new models we're better of either waiting for the cult marines to be in plastic much further down the line, or just in finecast.

**dracosz**

>

*mwahahahahaha*

Sorry, too busy gloating the possible(sic) downfall of my friends at the hands of my iron warriors...

**H.B.M.C.**

Unless we get a Noise Marine/Thousand Sons combined kit (box of 5 with enough parts to make either). The torsos, legs and arms would be the same. It really comes down to the heads, weapons, shoulder pads and a few extra details (tabards, speaker backpacks, etc.).

**aka_mythos**

That'd be a very minimalist approach and one that continues to ignore the distinctive details GW has added to the artwork depiction of the cult marines. I liken that approach to the minimal differences in 2nd edition between blood angel minis and generic marine minis... but as the depiction of blood angels has evolved so has the cult marines. To ignore those distinctions in sculpting new minis is to continue the trend of selling short the effort to really update the chaos miniature line. The Chaos marine's minis have been stuck largely in 3rd edition, so the last thing we need is something less than a 3rd edition approach. I'm not saying it won't happen your way... just that'd I be disappointed and see it as another lost opportunity for GW.