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Kanluwen wrote:

Durza wrote:I don't suppose GW still employs Chambers or Haines by any chance?

No.

When it comes to rules?
That is a good thing.

Haines wasn't even really that good for background material. Chambers, however, was.

It'd be nice to have a Chaos-affiliated writer have at least some input, even if they're not the top dog.

I can see what your saying, but IMHO he's still the best choice for the job. Still, one mans rose and all that!

Let me put it like this.

Haines didn't care about Chaos. He cared about Iron Warriors.

The "best bet" right now for Chaos really is Mat Ward. There may be some questionable fluff, but he can sort out writing a book for armies he's not entirely fond of(Grey Knights and Blood Angels) while feigning interest in them. He can also sort out writing a book for armies he IS fond of without going absolutely crazy (Necrons and C: SM).

Kanluwen wrote:Let me put it like this.

Haines didn't care about Chaos. He cared about Iron Warriors.

The "best bet" right now for Chaos really is Mat Ward. There may be some questionable fluff, but he can sort out writing a book for armies he's not entirely fond of(Grey Knights and Blood Angels) while feigning interest in them. He can also sort out writing a book for armies he IS fond of without going absolutely crazy (Necrons and C: SM).

Kanluwen, I fear you misunderstood what I was saying. I see your point, but happen to disagree with it, and you aren't going to convince me otherwise.

Like I said, one man's rose is another's thorn. So can we agree to disagree?

I do believe he may have been replying to my 'Have someone who cares about Chaos' comment.

Durza wrote:I do believe he may have been replying to my 'Have someone who cares about Chaos' comment.

Oh, whoops! I didn't see that, my apologies, Kanluwen!

Kanluwen wrote:

Durza wrote:I don't suppose GW still employs Chambers or Haines by any chance?

No.

When it comes to rules?
That is a good thing.

Haines wasn't even really that good for background material. Chambers, however, was.

I’ve seen you say this before and I think it is a matter of opinion. In comparison to the balance issue with Chambers versus Ward, Ward is far worse IMO when you also take into consideration what else they bring to the table. The only thing that was unbalanced about the 3.5 CSM codex IMO were the daemonic upgrades as everything else in the book wasn’t so bad (but then again wargear tables in general had balance issues with is why no new codex has them).

That being said, I don’t believe Matt Ward is the best writer for Chaos but then again none of the current writers are (as they aren’t CSM players). I found Matt’s subtractive style of balancing somewhat clumsy and whilst it can work for a clean cut IoM faction like BA and GK (as they are shoehorned into a particular style of play), it wouldn’t work for Chaos. We’d see broad categories being consolidated into a single entries (ala henchmen) and units lacking a core rule or wargear option as a counterbalance to physical power (ala Mephiston). Matt Ward also has a tendency to under cost units as well.

There's always the chance they bring someone new in, also.

I don't see Ward doing CSM justice. He's good with structured SM variants but Chaos needs a touch of wackiness and flair he doesn't really show in his rules.

I still think Kelly is the one who should write it. If you can't have a Chaos follower doing it, at least put someone who's competent both in terms of rules and fiction on the job.

Edit: Fixed unintentional megalomania.

His Master's Voice wrote:I don't see Ward doing CSM justice. He's good with structured SM variants but Chaos needs a touch of wackiness and flair he doesn't really show in his rules.

I still think Kelly is the one who should write it. If you can't have a Chaos follower doing it, at least put someone who's competent both in terms of rules and fiction on the job.

Edit: Fixed unintentional megalomania.

I think we are pretty safe...
The worst thing that could happen is that the codex gets oversimplified, and with the new trend in codex writing i dont see this happening. Besides, its not up to one single person anymore. I know that only 1 person is written in as the developer of the codex, but as recent rumours have shown, its more likely, the work of the entire development team...
Everyone gets a say, and that gives me comfort. The codex will be awesome. How could it not be?

edit: Corrected some spelling and nonsense

More than one person is involved yes but it doesn’t mean Ward and Kelly would work together on a project (as Ward and Jervis said to a person at gamesday for example that they weren’t personally working on Chaos Legions). Most likely I think comment regarding codices being a “collaborative effort” is probably referring to the play testers, interns, artists and whatnot who are also involved in the process.

Kanluwen wrote:Let me put it like this.

Haines didn't care about Chaos. He cared about Iron Warriors.

The "best bet" right now for Chaos really is Mat Ward. There may be some questionable fluff, but he can sort out writing a book for armies he's not entirely fond of(Grey Knights and Blood Angels) while feigning interest in them. He can also sort out writing a book for armies he IS fond of without going absolutely crazy (Necrons and C: SM).

Some of the background in C: SM was quite ridiculous.

The whole "everyone (including other Founding Legions!) wants to be an Ultramarine Tactical Marine" was more than a little goofy!

C: CSM 3.5 was awesome.

Tone down some of the over the top parts, clarify some of the confusing parts and Shazam - awesome!

I assume from your winky face that you do of course realize that such was not actually said. The wording, as I remember it, basically implies that other Chapters look to the Ultramarines as an exemplar of the Codex Astartes.

It's almost like how there are a multitude of Guard regiments out there which look to the Cadians as an example of professionalism and courage...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:That'd be a very minimalist approach and one that continues to ignore the distinctive details GW has added to the artwork depiction of the cult marines. I liken that approach to the minimal differences in 2nd edition between blood angel minis and generic marine minis... but as the depiction of blood angels has evolved so has the cult marines. To ignore those distinctions in sculpting new minis is to continue the trend of selling short the effort to really update the chaos miniature line. The Chaos marine's minis have been stuck largely in 3rd edition, so the last thing we need is something less than a 3rd edition approach. I'm not saying it won't happen your way... just that'd I be disappointed and see it as another lost opportunity for GW.

How? The level of detail they can put into plastic minis these days makes this kind've thing entirely possible. Look over the new Necron plastics. There are two plastic boxes that contain two completely different units, and to start with we weren't sure if some of them were the same kit or separate boxes (I was certain Deathmarks were single-pose Failcost models). I think they could do a Thousand Son/Noise Marine box very easily.

Let me put it this way, there are enough new cult units that with only a few exceptions they could combine those cult units into a single kit as opposed to making common components that are generic enough to be interchangeable... such as noise marines and the Emperor Children "soul shields" or whatever they're called combined as a kit... or Khorne Gladiators and berzekers together. When I hear plastic Thousand sons or plastic Noise Marines, I don't want to see models as generic as the basic CSM squad + bitz... I want to see something as distinct as the possessed marines or the blood angels sprues, where there is no doubt which sub-faction they belong to and the drip with the same immediate identifiable detail the artwork in the codex shows. I realize a lot of people dislike finecast, but if that's what is necessary to get quality sculpts as opposed to compromised concepts, I think its worthwhile. I want good models and I just don't think we can get that with mixed cult kits.

The necron kits work because of the degree of commonality in parts and the need for only a few bits switched out. To be done as a single kit Thousand sons and Noise marines would end up being a basic CSM squad plus a lot of bits. The two really don't have that much in common, without being so generic.Thousand sons have distinct heads, torso and tabard, magic bolters...noise marines, have a number of distinct weapons that in plastic would be almost as involved as a devastator squad sprue, they should have a number of distinct heads and backpacks as well... both would also need either bland shoulder pads, or distinct shoulder pads. Add to that one is a squad generally built to 10 and the other a squad optimally built to 6 or 7. Mixed kits like this just result in a lot more kit left unused... or a lot you pay for but don't necessarily want.

Alpharius wrote:

C: CSM 3.5 was awesome.

Tone down some of the over the top parts, clarify some of the confusing parts and Shazam - awesome!

By awesome you mean completely broken... that was the most unbalanced book to come out for its time, just edging out the 3rd edition Space Wolf book. The fact that you could make daemon princes that beat down bloodthirsters without breaking a sweat (let alone what they did to other lesser statlines) as well as natural t5 obliterators, iron warriors getting basilisks as a 4th heavy on top of those 9 oblits, etc made playing against a tooled out chaos army pointless. A single chaos player who did took the broken parts single handedly broke up my 3rd edition group as he was simply unstoppable (despite being an average player overall) with those builds and the 3rd edition rules. While I'm hoping for something with more flavor than the current dex (with some legion specific options and cult termies/raptors/etc), I certainly don't want anything near that abomination of unfairness that was the 3.5 codex.

H.B.M.C. wrote:How? The level of detail they can put into plastic minis these days makes this kind've thing entirely possible. Look over the new Necron plastics. There are two plastic boxes that contain two completely different units, and to start with we weren't sure if some of them were the same kit or separate boxes (I was certain Deathmarks were single-pose Finecast models). I think they could do a Thousand Son/Noise Marine box very easily.

Fixed your spelling.

Oblits weren't T5. They FAQ’d that. It was a ‘misprint’ (apparently...).

And how come everyone who whines about the 3.5 Codex always retreats straight to the Iron Warriors example, as if that was the only thing people used? Moreover, how come people always cite Prince/2LasPlas/9Oblits/4HS as the reason why 3.5 was so broken, as if it were the only broken Chaos army to have ever existed, both past and present? There were plenty of other armies in that Codex (not all of them balanced, some quite balanced, some terrible) and there are plenty of unbalanced things in the Codex Bland-Nation that we have now (or any other Codex for that matter).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kepora wrote:Fixed your spelling.

*slow clapping*

Gee. Thanks for the 'contribution'.

I don’t know why the 4HS thing gets quoted so much. It’s was not crash hot considering the current GK book having Stormravens as a FA choice and the current BA book has LRs as a basic dedicated transport as well as dreads as a troop choice (allowing for some pretty mech-tastic armies that the IW could only dream of). Even still, running an IW list meant that one could not include daemons or take marks other than Chaos undivided anyway (and before someone says something, both were very good in the 3.5 book).

The only balance issues in that book IMO were the Daemonic Upgrades and to a lesser extent, the veteran skills as abusing them allowed one to build very powerful HQs (str8+furious charge+EW DPs anyone? ). This issue was not limited to the CSM codex alone as global wargear lists in general had balance issues.

Despite the balance issues the 3.5 book had, it was no where near bad as 7E Fantasy Daemons and 5E GK (as both invalidated armies).

The 4th 'Chaos' Codex invalidated armies as well. Don't forget that.

Kanluwen wrote:

Castiel wrote:And yes I do realise that, henece I said he was a member of the team. I do however find it objectionable that people suggest that he would do a worse job on CSM than on SW or DE just because they don't think he collects them. It is insulting to his professional manner, and from the examples of his other works quite an unfair accusation.

I say it because it's known he doesn't collect them. It's also a perfectly fair accusation, considering. Four armies he's known to be quite fond of(and his armies of which have been displayed before in White Dwarf or even the army books proper over the years) become powerhouses with very strange, particular builds. It's also worth noting that he was a big fan of Wolf Guard and Haemonculi Covens...two of the most "broken" potential lists.

I didn't find the Haemonculi Covens to be 'broken', liquifier guns, FnP and poisoned weapons are not OP considering the fragility and cost of the transports.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Ward is a SM player through and through.
Kelly has Wolves and DE - lo and behold his shining examples.
Cruddace is an IG player (doesn't forgive him though) abd clearly didn't give a hoot about 'nids.

Does the Studio actually have any Chaos players...?

Don't forget that at the time of the 3.5 Dex he had a CSM army and he had also worked a bit on it.

So he is not without experience when it comes to Chaos, also he did the Warriors of Chaos book,wich isn't that bad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Unless we get a Noise Marine/Thousand Sons combined kit (box of 5 with enough parts to make either). The torsos, legs and arms would be the same. It really comes down to the heads, weapons, shoulder pads and a few extra details (tabards, speaker backpacks, etc.).

Gosh i really hope not...

I'm tired of that "5 minis per box that cost as much as ten,but you only can make 5 out of it" crap...

Yeah sure peoples who arn't bad at conversion can always scavange the missing pieces around and make it good,but for those who can't its really something enjoyable.

candy.man wrote:

I honestly don’t see how they will name the three books. I’m guessing the naming constraints for the book will be something like Chaos Legions: Volume 1.

Slave to Darkness

Lost and the Damned

Realms of Chaos

Thats your three books names ^^.

Kanluwen wrote:

The "best bet" right now for Chaos really is Mat Ward. There may be some questionable fluff, but he can sort out writing a book for armies he's not entirely fond of(Grey Knights and Blood Angels) while feigning interest in them. He can also sort out writing a book for armies he IS fond of without going absolutely crazy (Necrons and C: SM).

You can't be freakin serious?!...

His fluff is laughable at best, i still have the bad taste in my mouth of reading Draigo's fluff...

Both GK's and Necron dex have some ridiculous rules that make me all WTF?!...

I really do hope that he won't get as close to the Chaos dex as like 500km's, and even so that he will be watched over by 30 Custodes, so that he won't even dare to take a glance to the Codex or a pen and trying writing something in it, and that they will be authorized to maull him to death with their power hallberds...

candy.man wrote:I don’t know why the 4HS thing gets quoted so much. It’s was not crash hot considering the current GK book having Stormravens as a FA choice and the current BA book has LRs as a basic dedicated transport as well as dreads as a troop choice (allowing for some pretty mech-tastic armies that the IW could only dream of). Even still, running an IW list meant that one could not include daemons or take marks other than Chaos undivided anyway (and before someone says something, both were very good in the 3.5 book).

The only balance issues in that book IMO were the Daemonic Upgrades and to a lesser extent, the veteran skills as abusing them allowed one to build very powerful HQs (str8+furious charge+EW DPs anyone? ). This issue was not limited to the CSM codex alone as global wargear lists in general had balance issues.

Despite the balance issues the 3.5 book had, it was no where near bad as 7E Fantasy Daemons and 5E GK (as both invalidated armies).

True.

The Deamonic Gifts was a cool feat,but there was too many of it and nearly everybody had acces to it,their was nearly over a 60-ish Wargear options when you look at it,but 40% of it where more for the Lolz and the fun then real ingame functionality, a bit like in a Role Playing book,where there is thousands of options to make a character but more then 50% of it is only to define your character and make something different,even if it is not that usefull.

I do hope that the Gods Wargear will be back and if they make Deamonic Gifts, lets limit them to 8-10 only accesible to HQ and Elite choices,same for Veteran Skills.

Woot Chaos

Hopefully i will be able to make a cohesive 1ksons army now

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oblits weren't T5. They FAQ’d that. It was a ‘misprint’ (apparently...).

And how come everyone who whines about the 3.5 Codex always retreats straight to the Iron Warriors example, as if that was the only thing people used? Moreover, how come people always cite Prince/2LasPlas/9Oblits/4HS as the reason why 3.5 was so broken, as if it were the only broken Chaos army to have ever existed, both past and present? There were plenty of other armies in that Codex (not all of them balanced, some quite balanced, some terrible) and there are plenty of unbalanced things in the Codex Bland-Nation that we have now (or any other Codex for that matter).

Yeah, they eventually got changed to T4(5) over a year later with the reprint but that didn't help in between (and didn't filter through to all players). Frankly, I doubt it was a misprint but simply them realizing it was a bad idea. The combo you listed wasn't the only broken army in the history of chaos but it is certainly a prime example of the type of undercosted and over powerful army that could be made with that codex. Frankly, even an otherwise balanced list led by "custom" daemon princes with the upgrades candy man listed made for unpleasant games back in the days of 3rd edition when you could consolidate into close combat and rarely be caught out in the open. If you couldn't get lucky and shoot down the daemon prince in the first turn, he ran through your army like crap through a goose on turns 2-6 regardless what you threw at them.. wiping out units on his turn and then consolidating into others to do the same on yours (since you had to stay way back in your deployment to deny him an early charge.. thereby bunching up).

Chaos had several "easy" buttons but that one just happened to be the biggest. Was the current codex too big of a swing of the pendulum in the other direction? Sure... but I'm simply hoping for a bit more balanced approach the next time around that gives players back some of their choices but without the insance cheese that accompanied it the last time. The current chaos codex has changes that simply made no sense to me after taking 4th edition off like getting rid of cult termies and replacing them with guys who have to ask "blood for the which god again?" just because the guy with the sign died.

@candy man: The idea of 4 heavies *now* might not seem like a game changing thing since we have 9 leman russ and 6+ land raider armies currently but that wasn't the case back then as the rules were different. Space wolves having counter attack doesn't seem like a big deal now but it was huge back then. People (like me) are just listing examples of what made the codex that is being held up like some gold standard ridiculously bad to play AGAINST. I don't mind losing but those armies just won almost regardless of the skill of the players involved or the dice rolls due to broken upgrade combos, undercosting, and 3rd edition close combat rules.

Durza wrote:I don't suppose GW still employs Chambers or Haines by any chance?

Andy Chambers actually works for Blizzard Entertainment now.

Great roundup!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oblits weren't T5. They FAQ’d that. It was a ‘misprint’ (apparently...).

And how come everyone who whines about the 3.5 Codex always retreats straight to the Iron Warriors example, as if that was the only thing people used? Moreover, how come people always cite Prince/2LasPlas/9Oblits/4HS as the reason why 3.5 was so broken, as if it were the only broken Chaos army to have ever existed, both past and present? There were plenty of other armies in that Codex (not all of them balanced, some quite balanced, some terrible) and there are plenty of unbalanced things in the Codex Bland-Nation that we have now (or any other Codex for that matter).

It's because they have idea what a broken chaos list is. They don't remember second edition Kharn, leadership 12 unkillable daemon princes and my pre-codex favorite Thousand Sons sorcerer lords cruising around on disk of Tzeentch with power fields, terminator armor, graviton guns, and vortex grenades. Iron Warriors was tame by comparison but much less fun.

Read this on another forum I frequent:

Aaron Dembski-Bowden has posted on B&C to say he thinks the Legions/Renegades book split is nonsense, as is the "Red Angel" that has been rumoured to be in the new book:

"For the record, the Red Angel showing up would surprise me just as much as the separated Renegade/Legion codices, since he's showing up in the Heresy in ways even we've not fully decided yet (we only recently decided who he was), and the IP department are fully aware of it, having been at the meetings.

Seriously, I know it's cool to have rumours, but a lot of these reek of nonsense - especially the twin codex one, and the Red Angel."

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oblits weren't T5. They FAQ’d that. It was a ‘misprint’ (apparently...).

And how come everyone who whines about the 3.5 Codex always retreats straight to the Iron Warriors example, as if that was the only thing people used? Moreover, how come people always cite Prince/2LasPlas/9Oblits/4HS as the reason why 3.5 was so broken, as if it were the only broken Chaos army to have ever existed, both past and present? There were plenty of other armies in that Codex (not all of them balanced, some quite balanced, some terrible) and there are plenty of unbalanced things in the Codex Bland-Nation that we have now (or any other Codex for that matter).

Iron warriors were abusive and 'not fun' for alot of armies, but honestly, I *really* hated the 'siren daemonbomb' or 'bloodletter bomb' a helluva lot more!!!

Siren was the most broken thing in the 3.5 'dex. (well, unless you took the 'abhore the witch' vow as BT's or else played sisters!) A guy you had no chance at all the even scratch, who rode about on a bike with the icon that dropped a big unit of daemons right in your face... Half your army was gone and/or locked in assaults befor you could even fight back.
The Khornate version, relying on infiltrating chosen with that same icon was just as dumb. Turn 1 auto-charge and then roll up your lines. Guard had almost no chance, neither did tau unless you had a transport for every single squad to hide in! (fat chance...)

I'd love to see GW go back to a re-vamped version of the 3.5 'dex, just without all the excessive cheddar of those daemonic gifts/icons/minor powers.

As i am pretty sure i know dark general, i would say that these rumors corrospond well with what he told me last summer when i played in a tourni with him. I like the sound of the new chaos books but... and i am only reinterating what i have said earlier

I hope GW does not do to chaos what they did with tyranids. Nerf all the popular stuff and release all new way cooler way more effective army units in their own planned obsolesence scheme. I really feel that they went way to far with this tactic when they made the nids. If they do this with chaos i might have to go to privateer press.

Do you guys think that the plastic terminators will be updated?
I could imagine seeing a new combi kit for Terminators/Obliterators, maybe only containing three models, but a fethload of extra bits to make Legion specific Terminators?

Or I just realized that the Obliterators will probably just be re-released in finecast :(