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You know what would be realistic: that Tau get new kind of Battlesuit - but for close combat ( liek Dred ).
Imagine an XV8 with 2 plasma swords size of regular Guardsman and Tau are on the horse.

Brother Coa wrote:You know what would be realistic: that Tau get new kind of Battlesuit - but for close combat ( liek Dred ).
Imagine an XV8 with 2 plasma swords size of regular Guardsman and Tau are on the horse.

No. Just no.

I could see them bringing the XV9 into the Codex, but no close Combat units not named Kroot or Meatshield.

I think what's most important is for them to give several viable builds, the 5th edition codices (IG, GK, DE etc) have done this well so far, and I think it's really important to have builds other than as many suits as possible + railguns.

We also need much more fluff, we don't even know how the Crisis suits (the Tau's signature unit) work!

Brother Coa wrote:You know what would be realistic: that Tau get new kind of Battlesuit - but for close combat ( liek Dred ).
Imagine an XV8 with 2 plasma swords size of regular Guardsman and Tau are on the horse.

That's completely against all Tau fluff. Tau see CC as barbaric and unnessessary, and all their efforts in battle are trying to avoid it. More Kroot stuff like Shamans, Knarloc Riders and Great Knarlocs would work. But a Tau in a Battlesuit woudn't.

As for fliers, Barracuda. Please.

I always envisioned tau having something called "failsafe drones"

Little buggers that would counter charge before assault moves, but after an assault was declared and blow up in their faces. Instead of avoiding melee by moving, tau avoid melee by blowing stuff up in your face.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

And they would be OP like Grey Knights right?
1 battle-suit is already hard to combat with, get 3 more and you could rech havoc on enemy army.

You have to pay something like 60pts for a model with the same punch as a guard vet with a plasma gun. In fact their actual plasma rifle costs as the same amount (20pts). Four suits is thus one, maybe two, veteran squads with max special weapons, all for a fraction of the cost. I' am not saying I haven't wreaked havoc on a MEQ army, but that took a specialised list with 12 suits with plasma and fusion with two ion hammerheads and even then I only won because he was an all jump pack assault army with a very low model count. If he had actually reached my lines and not had to go around a large central clump of cover he would have splatted me. Also, since true line of sight means its difficult to have a suit totally out of cover the pop in, pop out tactic doesnt work; so they're very vulnerable to return fire. Not just ordinance, but sporadic weapons fire and even rapid fire lasguns can pretty easily bring the things down with only two wounds and a 3+ armour (as tough as two space marines standing back to back) when most of their guns are short range.

Trouble with the evade charge thing is that there are other races that would have similar tech and would be just as useful ie eldar guardians and rangers; even Necron warriors. So dropping flashbangs ain't going to do it. Increasing their stopping power or dropping points is the way to go given the limit to the heavy and special weapons that go on the suits.

The whole rock monster thing, just seems out of place putting such a fantasy concept unit in the sci fi army and adding uber assault units would just be a cop out. Demiurg, again iam a bit iffy with the concept. Kroot and Vespid are aliens like the Tau; not space elves, space orks, space dwarfs, space gnomes, space knights, space daemons, space undead, space nuns and I'd rather they kept it that way.

TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: ..........LOL.....Tau on horses???

Well they are robot horses. *Nods to themselves like a wacko*

earlier in this thread, someone said something about FW being able to evade charges.

That's dumb, but something vaguely similar might be okay.

I think giving them a defensive weapon like a small pike-ish thing or discreet mines that give them +1A while being charged would be a good idea (obivously for a few extra points).

This would work because they would not be quite as fragile or easy to charge (getting charged by 10 conscripts and losing sucks) but without giving them the melee boost, discouraging assaults.

This would make them harder to kill in melee without making them an option for assaulting others. Very tau-y.

Also @whoever said pulse carbine should be assault 2, I agree, but it would have to be at an increased points cost.

im2randomghgh wrote:earlier in this thread, someone said something about FW being able to evade charges.

That's dumb, but something vaguely similar might be okay.

I think giving them a defensive weapon like a small pike-ish thing or discreet mines that give them +1A while being charged would be a good idea (obivously for a few extra points).

This would work because they would not be quite as fragile or easy to charge (getting charged by 10 conscripts and losing sucks) but without giving them the melee boost, discouraging assaults.

This would make them harder to kill in melee without making them an option for assaulting others. Very tau-y.

This... wouldn't work. Giving Fire Warriors CA means they suck in close combat, like they always have, and still can't hope to beat any full-sized squad in CC. Something I think might be useful is I4 when making Initaitive tests and Hit and Run, allowing them to retreat out of CC without being swept while still being I2 when hitting.

Also @whoever said pulse carbine should be assault 2, I agree, but it would have to be at an increased points cost.

Not really. If the standard PR becomes Rapid Fire, 30", 15" double-tap range, then a Pulse Carbine would be pretty much redundant next to it. By making it Assault 2 Pinning it becomes a decent enough option for mechanised squads.

TrollPie wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:earlier in this thread, someone said something about FW being able to evade charges.

That's dumb, but something vaguely similar might be okay.

I think giving them a defensive weapon like a small pike-ish thing or discreet mines that give them +1A while being charged would be a good idea (obivously for a few extra points).

This would work because they would not be quite as fragile or easy to charge (getting charged by 10 conscripts and losing sucks) but without giving them the melee boost, discouraging assaults.

This would make them harder to kill in melee without making them an option for assaulting others. Very tau-y.

This... wouldn't work. Giving Fire Warriors CA means they suck in close combat, like they always have, and still can't hope to beat any full-sized squad in CC. Something I think might be useful is I4 when making Initaitive tests and Hit and Run, allowing them to retreat out of CC without being swept while still being I2 when hitting.

Also @whoever said pulse carbine should be assault 2, I agree, but it would have to be at an increased points cost.

Not really. If the standard PR becomes Rapid Fire, 30", 15" double-tap range, then a Pulse Carbine would be pretty much redundant next to it. By making it Assault 2 Pinning it becomes a decent enough option for mechanised squads.

Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Firewarriors are the bulk of my army. I want them to be super better, so I have the bestest stand and shoot army around.

People who say tau shouldn't have units that are good in CC, as well as having good shooting units -- WHAT? Look at every other army out there-

Space wolves - Long fangs/Thunderwolf Cavalry
Eldar - Fire dragons/banshees
Dark Eldar - Warriors/Wyches
Tyranids - Hive guard/entire rest of army

It goes on and on - Yes CC shouldn't be what tau are good at as a general rule, but having one (or God forbid) two dedicated CC units is what makes them a balanced, and competitive codex. It is not OP. It can be as simple as making kroot I5 and adding one other unit that can handle themselves in CC.

I just had to shove that comment into this thread, because i've read some comments in other threads to the effect that tau should in no way be able to participate in the assault phase of the game, and i fully disagree.

Just thought I'd add my opinions,

1) Is increasing the rapid fire range of PR by 3" really going to make that much of a difference? I mean 18" would be sweet but its just not going to happen.
2) Do Fire warriors really need something to get them out of combat? And by this I mean something within the mechanic of the squad. Isnt it the players use of other units that should effectively "be" this mechanic.

3) Also as long as these new demiug guys dont "dilute" the Tau-iness of my Tau army i'm happy, because I took Tau for the cool looking Tau guys. Maybe also cause kroot look cool too but mainly for the tau.
4) I also second the networked marker light, and would love the markerlight to be assualt but it prolly wont be.
5) More options for kroot or new demiug units are good aslong as they are useful.

Increasing rapid fire to 15" has one very important reason - most threat ranges from infantry is 12" - the same as typical rapid fire. that means if you're double-tapping a unit, regardless of whether or not they have faster movement or fleet you are in charge range on their turn (for whatever doesn't die. When you increase double tap range to 15", only units with jump packs or beast charges or fleet will be able to charge you in the following turn, thus giving the fire warriors 2 shooting phases to double-tap a unit that is closing in on them instead of just one. That is where the extra 3" makes a difference, and I think it would fit the tau strategy perfectly.

Or, for CC, we could just give kroot armour without have to pay out the ass for it!

Sound good?

Also, we should be able to take the different kroot subspecies as their own unit. In the fluff there are described as deploying waves of hounds BEFORE the carnivores anyways.

Plus, how sick would it be to throw three dozen kroot hounds at any enemy instead of a huge complex unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:You know what would be realistic: that Tau get new kind of Battlesuit - but for close combat ( liek Dred ).
Imagine an XV8 with 2 plasma swords size of regular Guardsman and Tau are on the horse.

Well they have the XV9 which is designed for close range fire support.

I wouldn't mind either of those ideas - If all we get for CC are kroot then give us the kroot mercenaries at competitive points per model costs. There was a breed with wings, there was a tougher breed that had ork dna (extra attacks per model too i think), there was a sharpshooter breed, and maybe a couple others. The 'nid codex does upgrades with glands and kroot work similarly, i think it would be fine to pay for upgrades if the kroot themselves dropped to 4 or 5 ppm.

This is all wishlisting however...I hate GW's policy that keeps us out of the loop until right before a book is released. It'd be nice to know how long we'll be waiting for this illustrious update. I'm using my tau exclusively now until Necrons are released, then I'll dust off my robots for awhile. It'd be nice to come back to the Greater Good with a powerhouse Codex in the future though.

tetrisphreak wrote:I wouldn't mind either of those ideas - If all we get for CC are kroot then give us the kroot mercenaries at competitive points per model costs. There was a breed with wings, there was a tougher breed that had ork dna (extra attacks per model too i think), there was a sharpshooter breed, and maybe a couple others. The 'nid codex does upgrades with glands and kroot work similarly, i think it would be fine to pay for upgrades if the kroot themselves dropped to 4 or 5 ppm.

This is all wishlisting however...I hate GW's policy that keeps us out of the loop until right before a book is released. It'd be nice to know how long we'll be waiting for this illustrious update. I'm using my tau exclusively now until Necrons are released, then I'll dust off my robots for awhile. It'd be nice to come back to the Greater Good with a powerhouse Codex in the future though.

It almost makes me wish the Fish of Fury hadn't been fixed :(

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

Another wishlist tactic for firewarriors - the "Bushwhack" ability. Anybody who plays Warmachine/Hordes has seen units with this ability - instead of moving, then shooting (which is the norm in both game systems) the bushwhack units are allowed to shoot, then move in reverse order. That fits with the tau fluff, keeps the FW in range for their doubletap shots on approaching enemies (or allows them to fire single shot at full range) then they move backwards into safety immediately after shooting.

I'm full of ideas today.

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

tetrisphreak wrote:Another wishlist tactic for firewarriors - the "Bushwhack" ability. Anybody who plays Warmachine/Hordes has seen units with this ability - instead of moving, then shooting (which is the norm in both game systems) the bushwhack units are allowed to shoot, then move in reverse order. That fits with the tau fluff, keeps the FW in range for their doubletap shots on approaching enemies (or allows them to fire single shot at full range) then they move backwards into safety immediately after shooting.

I'm full of ideas today.

Maybe give them a 6' step back in the assault phase. I think I read a rule that some battle suits can do it, but I cant recall what one.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

So are you suggesting we can add 1 pulse carbine to a unit for free instead of paying per model in the squad to get the defensive grenades bonus?

No. Photon grenades are a specific model upgrade, and must be paid points for. The fluff description of the carbine tells where the photon grenades emit from, it does not say the model counts as having them.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

That pic is not the one I saw. I saw Demiurgs on Sprue next to a completed Demiurg. Though the big beasts do look like the troll thing I saw.

I agree with 15" rapid and IMO Photon Grenades should confer hit and run at +1/2 I

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

You want to know where it says that? It doesn't. Thats where.

The hit and run would be interesting for a fire warrior squad, but how many are left after being in CC?

Kroot/Vespid any other allies dont have to be taken, so no worries there on making your clean pretty Tau Army not pretty.

As much as we read about the Gue'vesa you'd figure there would be an entry in the Codex (not some lil tiny passage in an IA, iirc).

XV9 are supposed to be the close range Tau fire support. Never used them, so can't vouch for their ability, but they have some pretty models (however I think that they have some really limited armory selections, but FW tends to err on the side of caution with their rules)

Wishlist: Stealth upgrades become an XV armory upgrade. Stealth suits drop points, drop auto stealth upgrade, gain wider access to armoury. Maybe 2 battlesuit systems for them, one weapon, one uprgrade. I'd love that.

CpatTom wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

You want to know where it says that? It doesn't. Thats where.

The hit and run would be interesting for a fire warrior squad, but how many are left after being in CC?

Kroot/Vespid any other allies dont have to be taken, so no worries there on making your clean pretty Tau Army not pretty.

As much as we read about the Gue'vesa you'd figure there would be an entry in the Codex (not some lil tiny passage in an IA, iirc).

XV9 are supposed to be the close range Tau fire support. Never used them, so can't vouch for their ability, but they have some pretty models (however I think that they have some really limited armory selections, but FW tends to err on the side of caution with their rules)

Wishlist: Stealth upgrades become an XV armory upgrade. Stealth suits drop points, drop auto stealth upgrade, gain wider access to armoury. Maybe 2 battlesuit systems for them, one weapon, one uprgrade. I'd love that.

@The photon grenade thing, I just found out I've been cheating for years Also, now I have to rip the Pulse carbines off my FW because they offer literally nothing.

XV9s are actually very solid. They are the backbone of my apocalypse army. They have a fairly good range of weapons too, with 4 weapons to choose from, each of which is achingly good except for TL BC.

So their options are only slightly less limited than crisis suits, but are so much more powerful it is more than worth it.

CpatTom wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

You want to know where it says that? It doesn't. Thats where.

That was my point.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, now I have to rip the Pulse carbines off my FW because they offer literally nothing.

They don't currently, but they might in the new codex. Assuming you've used plastic glue, I would just ask if you can play them as rifles, because you might end up doing more harm than good trying to remove the carbines.

Avatar 720 wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

You want to know where it says that? It doesn't. Thats where.

That was my point.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, now I have to rip the Pulse carbines off my FW because they offer literally nothing.

They don't currently, but they might in the new codex. Assuming you've used plastic glue, I would just ask if you can play them as rifles, because you might end up doing more harm than good trying to remove the carbines.

I was joking about tearing them off, I have more than enough rifle FW to play my games.