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How to fix the Tau Codex:

Move Vespids and Pathfinders into Troops

Add XV84/XV81/XV89 to Elites

Move XV25 TO Fast Attack

Add XV9/XV9-1/XV9-4 To Fast Attack

20% price cut on all units in Codex

Farsight Makes Crisis(8/81/84/89) Suits Troops

Shadowsun makes Stealth Suits Troops

Puretide(Broadside Commander?) makes Hazard(9/9-1/9-4) suits troops.

Remove Ethereals.


Codex is fixed, joyous days for all.

The removal of Ethereals is something i'd back. Not only does it make sense game-wise, but also fluff-wise, since there is no reason for them to be in the line of fire at all. Ethereals are negotiators, emissaries and inspirational leaders, they are not Chapter Masters or Inquisitors or any other form of front line leader as well as army commander; the role of front line command should be limited to Shas'El or Shas'O commanders, since Ethereals lack the combat ability, battlefield awareness, veterancy, and defense of trained warriors.

I think that aliens should act in a similar way to CSM daemons, in that they are troops for all purposes except FoC. With the amount of alien species that serve the Greater Good, it's nonsensical to have them battling for FoC places. Currently, it works due to two aliens, but if more are added like the Demiurg, the Nicassar, or Tarellians, then the codex can quickly become cluttered with units vying for spaces.

Either that or have a hard cap of alien units, or have them operate similarly to how Sniper Drones operate, buying several squads that only take up 1 FoC slot. In that case, Vespid should stay Fast Attack (since they are winged creatures), because they don't really suit the role of Troops.

Shifting Stealth Suits to FA makes sense, but only if more suit variants are added to Elites.

Avatar 720, from the rumours that were doing the rounds before, there will be special characters that allow some choices to be taken as a troop section. So, some kind of Demiurg commander that would potentially allow a complete Demiug army.

The problem is now though with the new secrets policy, we have no way of knowing whether they are in the works or not. Oh well, I can always by some Mantic Forgefathers for the time being

Avatar 720 wrote:The removal of Ethereals is something i'd back. Not only does it make sense game-wise, but also fluff-wise, since there is no reason for them to be in the line of fire at all. Ethereals are negotiators, emissaries and inspirational leaders, they are not Chapter Masters or Inquisitors or any other form of front line leader as well as army commander; the role of front line command should be limited to Shas'El or Shas'O commanders, since Ethereals lack the combat ability, battlefield awareness, veterancy, and defense of trained warriors.

I think that aliens should act in a similar way to CSM daemons, in that they are troops for all purposes except FoC. With the amount of alien species that serve the Greater Good, it's nonsensical to have them battling for FoC places. Currently, it works due to two aliens, but if more are added like the Demiurg, the Nicassar, or Tarellians, then the codex can quickly become cluttered with units vying for spaces.

Either that or have a hard cap of alien units, or have them operate similarly to how Sniper Drones operate, buying several squads that only take up 1 FoC slot. In that case, Vespid should stay Fast Attack (since they are winged creatures), because they don't really suit the role of Troops.

Shifting Stealth Suits to FA makes sense, but only if more suit variants are added to Elites.

The elites definitely need more variants/more suits. Maybe the BS4 honour guard FW without Ethereals added to elites?

And new suits. Maybe XV10, a walker?

Just give them the fantasy "Stand and Shoot" chage reaction to assaults (without markerlight support) and you've already gone a long way to making them more viable in 5th. You want to charge me? Fine but you're gonna lose 2 or 3 of your marines. Imagine your opponent's face when he fails to make it into assault and just lost 3 models AND is going to be double tapped again on your turn.

*sigh* I can dream, can't I?

We already have the eternal models. Seems like such a waste not to use them.

Objective markers. Now you have a use for them. Done.

nomotog wrote:We already have the eternal models. Seems like such a waste not to use them.

Since nobody uses them anyway, I doubt it'd make a difference.

CpatTom wrote:Objective markers. Now you have a use for them. Done.

That's a rather lame use for the model I would rather they keep them and just make them usable.

nomotog wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Objective markers. Now you have a use for them. Done.

That's a rather lame use for the model I would rather they keep them and just make them usable.

Better than Nothing. Poor Cypher has no reason to live.



Edit: Avatar, we could prolly add some Knarlocs into Elites if we really wanted to.

I heard something of a large crisis suit called something like an Extinction or Extermination suit as another Heavy Support. Supposedly fluff is that it was designed when fighting against the nids to take out swarms. Has twin linked Ion cannons as opposed to broadside rail guns. Also supposedly large enough to count as a MC. Not sure though.

I suggest that a Shas'o/'el starts off with a very low base cost and can then pick a certain suit: Crisis suit, Stealth suit, possibly a broadside suit?
Perhaps you could also field him on foot, but this allows the BS4 fire warriors as mentioned earlier to be troops choices instead of elites to make it more viable.

I think Ethereals could still find a place in the codex, maybe they could be the ones to make the BS4 fire warriors troops, or they could have a similar system to IG orders to boost the force, or they could call down Air Caste strikes a la Dawn of War.

Just throwing some suggestions out there.

tetrisphreak wrote:People who say tau shouldn't have units that are good in CC, as well as having good shooting units -- WHAT? Look at every other army out there-

Space wolves - Long fangs/Thunderwolf Cavalry
Eldar - Fire dragons/banshees
Dark Eldar - Warriors/Wyches
Tyranids - Hive guard/entire rest of army

It goes on and on - Yes CC shouldn't be what tau are good at as a general rule, but having one (or God forbid) two dedicated CC units is what makes them a balanced, and competitive codex. It is not OP. It can be as simple as making kroot I5 and adding one other unit that can handle themselves in CC.

I just had to shove that comment into this thread, because i've read some comments in other threads to the effect that tau should in no way be able to participate in the assault phase of the game, and i fully disagree.

Tau don't need a balanced, competitive H2H unit, they need a way to have a decent chance of evading charges. That is based on Tau mobility.

Because melee is so decisive compared to shooting, Tau also need improved firepower. That is provided by slightly cheaper suits, slightly longer rapid fire range pulse rifles, and slightly cheaper markerlights.

Brother Coa said the changes would make the army over powered. I think it needs careful thought about the balance of points costs and capabilities to make it fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grakmar wrote:I've also heard the Tau are getting Demiurg allies rumor. But, the "Tau are currently not being worked on" rumor looks equally valid. Tau are in a tough spot, developmentally speaking. They're heavily focused on shooting with their big weakness being CC. However, with the improved mobility we've seen in 5th edition (transports everywhere) and with the focus on troops with amazing survivability, the Tau are in trouble. It will take a major overhaul to make them competitive.

....

I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

A lot more could be done to make things more interesting; by doing things with Ethereals, Vespids, Gun Drones, Skyrays, Krootox and Sniper Drones. That plus adding more drone types and other stuff would make the codex an awesomely fun and interesting book, and would take a lot longer to work out.

I still see Fire Warriors being a liability with these changes. 3" of extra double-tap still doesn't give them much of a punch, especially with BS3. I think they should have the ability to re-roll 1s to hit at range and be rolled back to 9 points. Also, Pulse Carbines should be Assualt 2 IMO.

The changes also deliver more, cheaper markerlights, and that makes the difference to the BS.

I personally think that Markerlights should be able to target any unit within their range and LoS. It doesn't make much sense of them to follow the regular shooting rules, since they're only for marking potential targets.

Having that 8-man Pathfinder unit target 4 squads with two markerlights each allows for minor increases against multiple squads, instead of what you normally get, which is sometimes an overabundance of markerlight hits against a single squad.

With BS3, and markerlights not being affected by markerlights when rolling to hit, it means that you're not guaranteed to hit all 4 squads with both markerlights, so the more units you want to target, the less chance you have of successfully lighting them up, but it makes them a lot better than simply picking one squad and finding out that you've got markerlights leftover that you can't or didn't use.

It also allows you to boost a wide variety of units. If a tank needs destroying, sending 3 markerlights at it to take away any cover saves and/or increase the BS of the firer, and use the remaining few markerlights on infantry that the crisis suits or FWs could do with targeting; currently, if the tank needs to go down, then you're stuck shoving a potential of 8 markerlight hits onto a model that really doesn't need that many at all.

They could easily just give them defensive grenades across the army. to help with CC then add some more mobility or something.

Defensive Grenades aren't all that great as Tau, since anything coming your way usually has at least 2 attacks basic anyway (1 from the profile, 1 from two CCWs), and since they're likely to be charging into cover, will lose that extra attack for charging by using frag grenades, rendering your defensive grenades pointless.

10 Marines charging you without the extra attack is 21 attacks, 14 hits, 9.338 wounds and 4.669 dead FWs, or 5. Remaining 5 FWs (assuming a unit of 10) get 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 0.8325 wounds and 0.2772225 dead marines, or 0.

We still lose that combat by a hell of a lot, and if anything, we want that to happen, since it means the marines are out of combat in our turn, and free to shoot. Defensive grenades have the possibility to prolong a combat by an extra turn (because it shouldn't take much longer than that unless you charged the FWs with another unit of FWs), which means the marines are out of combat in their own turn, and free to act.

Avatar 720 wrote:and since they're likely to be charging into cover, will lose that extra attack for charging by using frag grenades, rendering your defensive grenades pointless.

That is not a rule. Frag grenades allow you to strike at Initiative when charging into cover, nowhere does it stipulate that you lose the bonus CCW attack for doing so.

Please re-read where I said this:

...will lose that extra attack for charging...

EDIT: Re-read the rules, thought you lost the charging attack.

Even so, the post still stands, since I didn't mention losing the bonus CCW attack.

Yeah I read yours too quickly before responding. Apologies there. Either way frag grenades don't make you sacrifice any attacks, they're good jams.

I agree with the bottom of that post, btw, tau lose combat just by being in combat...even if you don't get wiped out (which is a lost KP, scoring unit, etc) then you're locked in CC with the offending unit, and can't shoot at him during your own turn...allowing that unit (dratted beast squads and thunderwolves) to run rampant through your army.

TWC can be dealt with by moving to the upper floors of terrain (if there are any) since Cavalry models can't ascend floors.

As can beast squads...you know as obvious and stupid (read: i should have figured it out myself lol) an answer that is for those two units, in tactical application it has eluded me to do exactly that.

That is also true for any other army who wants to avoid a beast squad.

In other words it does nothing to balance Tau specifically.

King Pariah wrote:I heard something of a large crisis suit called something like an Extinction or Extermination suit as another Heavy Support. Supposedly fluff is that it was designed when fighting against the nids to take out swarms. Has twin linked Ion cannons as opposed to broadside rail guns. Also supposedly large enough to count as a MC. Not sure though.

TL Ion Cannon would kind of suck. With two Ion Cannon and for the price of a broadside (If they have comparable stats and aren't MC) that would be alright.

I think that Ethereals can be keepers, but they need some serious changes. Perhaps giving them the ability to do something equivalent to the Guard's orders or some other non-psychic psychic power.

Avatar 720 wrote:I personally think that Markerlights should be able to target any unit within their range and LoS. It doesn't make much sense of them to follow the regular shooting rules, since they're only for marking potential targets.

Having that 8-man Pathfinder unit target 4 squads with two markerlights each allows for minor increases against multiple squads, instead of what you normally get, which is sometimes an overabundance of markerlight hits against a single squad.

With BS3, and markerlights not being affected by markerlights when rolling to hit, it means that you're not guaranteed to hit all 4 squads with both markerlights, so the more units you want to target, the less chance you have of successfully lighting them up, but it makes them a lot better than simply picking one squad and finding out that you've got markerlights leftover that you can't or didn't use.

It also allows you to boost a wide variety of units. If a tank needs destroying, sending 3 markerlights at it to take away any cover saves and/or increase the BS of the firer, and use the remaining few markerlights on infantry that the crisis suits or FWs could do with targeting; currently, if the tank needs to go down, then you're stuck shoving a potential of 8 markerlight hits onto a model that really doesn't need that many at all.

That's an interesting proposal that would greatly improve the utility of Pathfinders. Instead of being able to light up one target per team, it gives the potential to get 4 hits on 4 separate targets! It can also be easily hand-waved in the fluff by saying that the Pathfinders all have target-locks.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:I personally think that Markerlights should be able to target any unit within their range and LoS. It doesn't make much sense of them to follow the regular shooting rules, since they're only for marking potential targets.

Having that 8-man Pathfinder unit target 4 squads with two markerlights each allows for minor increases against multiple squads, instead of what you normally get, which is sometimes an overabundance of markerlight hits against a single squad.

With BS3, and markerlights not being affected by markerlights when rolling to hit, it means that you're not guaranteed to hit all 4 squads with both markerlights, so the more units you want to target, the less chance you have of successfully lighting them up, but it makes them a lot better than simply picking one squad and finding out that you've got markerlights leftover that you can't or didn't use.

It also allows you to boost a wide variety of units. If a tank needs destroying, sending 3 markerlights at it to take away any cover saves and/or increase the BS of the firer, and use the remaining few markerlights on infantry that the crisis suits or FWs could do with targeting; currently, if the tank needs to go down, then you're stuck shoving a potential of 8 markerlight hits onto a model that really doesn't need that many at all.

That's an interesting proposal that would greatly improve the utility of Pathfinders. Instead of being able to light up one target per team, it gives the potential to get 4 hits on 4 separate targets! It can also be easily hand-waved in the fluff by saying that the Pathfinders all have target-locks.

You can actually give them TL I think. And multi-trackers, so they could markerlight AND shoot.

Unless you're in 18", which you shouldn't be, the multi-tracker is useless. And the TL comes with the Rail Rifle.

acekevin8412 wrote:Unless you're in 18", which you shouldn't be, the multi-tracker is useless. And the TL comes with the Rail Rifle.

The TL is also in the armoury as an option with it's own points cost. And I agree the Multitracker sucks.

Without RRs, though, the TL is only available to Pathfinder Team Leaders.

I think that I'd like not an assault unit, but a defensive unit- one to get into combat and stay there. Demiurg would suit that.