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2014/03/02 01:50:56
Subject: Sword of Fire, Hammer of Heaven: Sororitas elite jump troops with power weapons
Being you asked me to review things, and I kept forgetting / missing / ignoring / sleeping, I'll go through bit by bit.
part 1 wrote:
SisterSydney wrote:So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword... -- Genesis 3:24 (King James Version)
Why I made this horrifying thing:
Spoiler:
This bit of homebrewery started not with a tactical niche nor a bit of background but an image: an armored angelic form of superhuman size, falling from the sky and smashing into the enemy with its fiery sword. The result, after much tinkering, is a S:4 T:4 Sv:2+ jump-pack Sister of Battle who doesn't suffer Deep Strike mishaps just because she landed on top of some infidel enemy model....
....and if you think this is over the top, my original idea was for this to be a deep striking super-heavy walker with jump jets and a Destroyer close combat weapon. (It would have gone in the "Sisters of Escalation" thread). So making it a lighter-weight, jump-capable version of the Marine Assault Centurion is, by contrast, almost sane....
... not that "sane" and "Warhammer 40K" go together anyway.
But I'm willing to let cooler heads prevail and eager to hear all comments, criticisms, and exclamations of sheer dumbfounded horror.
Force organization: Elite.
Unit type: Jump Infantry. Superior is Jump Infantry (character).
Unit Composition: 2 Principalities, 1 Principality Superior
Fuff:
Spoiler:
Mass, velocity, and fury define the Principalities, elite jump assault troops of the Adepta Sororitas. In their ornate and oversized power armour -- similar to, though smaller than, that of a Space Marine Centurion -- they stand head and shoulders taller than their Seraphim compatriots and twice as heavy. Yet their equally outsized jump packs and their wide wings allow all that mass to leap and soar and crash down upon the foe. Unlike more lightly armoured jump troops, the robust and brutal Principalities train to deep strike as close as possible to their targets, sometimes literally on top of them, so as to attack hand-to-hand and boot-to-head with all the momentum of their descent behind them.
Every Principality bears a Sword of Fire, a weapon is so massive even they must wield it two-handed. Arcane mechanisms inside the blade generate a melta-like effect that burns through flesh and armour alike. Many Principalities also bear Imperial icons on their huge wings to inspire the faithful or dazzle the foe, while their Superiors are often trained in the war hymns of the Ecclesiarchy.
Wargear:
Twin-linked heavy flamer
Sword of Fire: Melee S:8 AP:1 Armourbane, Shred, Two-Handed
Special Rules:
Act of Faith: Leap of Faith*
Furious Charge
Hammer of Heaven*
Shield of Faith
*Unique special rules:
Spoiler:
Act of Faith: Leap of Faith Rockets roaring beyond the safety limits, the Principalities hurl themselves back into the sky, all the better to smash down upon the enemy once more. One use only. This Act of Faith may be used at the start of the Movement Phase, and only if the unit is not locked in combat, pinned, falling back, or carrying a Relic or other objective counter. If successful, the unit is immediately removed from the board and enters Ongoing Reserves.
Hammer of Heaven:
The Principalities fall from the skies to crush the enemies of the Emperor, landing and striking in a single movement. Principalities may charge on the same turn they arrive by Deep Strike. For this turn only, their Hammer of Wrath attacks gain +1 Strength, but they lose the ability to take Cover saves. (This represents them not actually landing until they impact the enemy during their charge).
In addition, if a deep-striking Principality model lands within 1" or even on top of an enemy model, the unit does not suffer a mishap. Instead, continue placing Deep Striking models as normal, moving any Principality that landed directly atop an enemy model the minimum distance until it can rest on the table. Once all models are placed, the Principality squad and the enemy unit are immediately Locked In Combat, and the Principalities count as having charged.
Note that the Principalities do mishap as per the normal Deep Strike rules if any of them land on friendly models, impassible terrain, or off the board.
Options:
May include up to three additional Principalities: 5085 points per model
Any Principality may replace its twin-linked heavy flamer with
- a storm bolter: free
- a twin-linked meltagun: +5 points
Any Principality may take one of the following for 10 points:
- Wings of Faith: The Principality counts as having a Simulacrum Imperialis.
- Wings of Fire: The Principality counts as having assault grenades when charging.
- Wings of Glory: The Principality counts as having a Laud Hailer.
- Wings of Light: The Principality's Hammer of Wrath attacks gain the Blind special rule.
The Principality Superior may take a War Hymnal: +25 points
A model with a War Hymnal counts as having the War Hymns special rule.
Design notes
Spoiler:
The unit I'm starting with is a Space Marine Assault Centurion.
I consider the Spare Marines "package" of army SRs (ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Tactics) to be roughly equal the Sisters' package (Acts of Faith & Shield of Faith). So that's a wash as well: +/-0.
Note that the "Leap of Faith" AOF is basically the "Skyleap" ability from Codex:Eldar.
The Assault Centurion's pair of Siege Drills (S:9 AP:2 Armourbane Specialist) is pretty darn equivalent to a single Sword of Fire (S:8 AP:1 Armourbane) and +1 Attack -- except the Sword of Fire can Shred, which is +10 points.
Ironclad Assault Launchers cost 10 points as a Spare Marine Dreadnought option: You lose that.
You also go down from a Marine statline to a Sisters statline, which means -1 to Strength, Toughness, and Initiative (S & T are still boosted +1 by the suit, same as for a Marine Centurion, but Sisters start from a lower baseline): -30 points.
Hammer of Heaven is tricky:
You can charge on the turn you Deep Strike: 10 points.
You get +1 Strength, normally +10, but only on Hammer of Wrath -- not all your attacks -- and only when Deep Striking: +5 pts.
Being able to Deep Strike without mishap would also be worth +10, but you only get it when landing on enemy models, other things can still make you mishap: +5 pts.
And I'm not going to bother assigning a penalty for not being able to take Cover Saves for that one turn, c'mon, these things have 2+ armour.
Total: 20 points
So, starting from the base Assault Centurion and using Ovion's unit costing guide, you GAIN +55 points:
Furious Charge +10
Jump Unit +15
Shred +10
Hammer of Heaven +20
And you LOSE -65 points:
- Slow & Purposeful -5 points
- Decimator Protocols -10 (at a guess)
- Move Through Cover -10
-1 Strength -10
-1 Toughness -10
-1 Initiative -10
- Ironclad Assault Launchers -10
Net: -10 points.
I would honestly, cost it off of Seraphim.
You also haven't costed it as Elite Infantry, you're ran as single models.
Spoiler:
Elite Infantry:
3 Seraphim - 45
+1S +10
+1T +10
+1W +10
+1A +10
2+>3+ +15
+TL Heavy Flamer +15
+SoF (+Chainfist +30, +1AP +10, +Shred +10, -Unwieldy +10, +2 Handed -5) +55
-H&R, AV -10
HoH (Charge out of Deep Strike +20, +1HoW +5, +NoMishap/Instacombat +10, +NoOverwatch +5) +40
Total: 75per
So pretty similar, but I feel the Seraphim costing is more accurate for what it is.
Optionwise, I would actually drop the Storm Bolter option.
Then make it replace TLHF with TL-Meltagun or TL-Heavy Bolter for free
part 2 wrote:
BrotherHaraldus wrote:People sigh at my idea of SoB termies, but this is okay? :( I thought a squad of T3 2+ save models would make for a nice mechanic.
I designed some a while back.
I don't remember what the Act of Faith was meant to be, and can't find it, but this is the unit:
Spoiler:
Army: Sisters of Battle
BG: Sisters Terminators. Never came up with exactly why, but Inquisitors can have Termi armour, so there's precedent.
Special Rules:
Acts of Faith
Emperors Finest
Shield of Faith
Options:
• Any Ophanim or Ophanim Superior may replace her Storm Bolter with one of the following:
Combi-Flamer +5
Combi-Melta +5
Combi-Plasma +5
Lightning Claw +5
Condemnor Boltgun + 10
Plasma Pistol + 10
Thunder Hammer +20
• Any Ophanim or Ophanim Superior may replace her Power Weapon with one of the following:
Lightning Claw +3
Storm Shield +10
Power Fist +7
Chainfist +12
Thunder Hammer +15
• One Ophanim may take:
Simulacrum Imperialis +20
• Any Ophanim may replace her Storm Bolter with one of the following:
Heavy Bolter + 5
Multi‐Melta +10
Heavy Flamer +10
• The Ophanim Superior may take:
Melta Bombs + 5
part 3 wrote:
SisterSydney wrote:Instead of 2+, let's try a 45-point, 3+/3++, & power weapon build based on Seraphim.
Note that, as I've statted them up here, Principalities always have Shred -- which Seraphim have to roll an AOF for -- and Furious Charge -- which Celestians have to roll AOF for. They also have Celestian's 2 Attacks. They're sort of a souped-up Celestian-Seraphim hybrid that's armed and armoured like a Battle Conclave's Crusaders (not Terminators).
Conversely they lose "Hit & Run" because their task and training are to tar-pit. They lose "Angelic Visage" because the ability to re-roll your 6++ is redundant when you have a 3++ you're always going to use instead.
Force organization: Elite
Unit Type: Jump Infantry. Superior is Jump Infantry (character).
Unit Composition: 1 Principality Superior, 2 Principalities
Wargear:
Power Armour
Power weapon (lance or sword)
Bolt Pistol
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Jump Pack
Storm Shield
Special Rules:
Act of Faith*
Furious Charge
Shield of Faith
Shred
*Act of Faith: Leap of Faith One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in the Movement Phase. If the Principalities use this Act while Deep Striking, they may reroll the Scatter Dice. If the Principalities use this Act during normal movement, they may use their jump packs in both the Movement Phase and the Assault Phase this turn.
Options:
May include up to seven additional Principalities: +45 points per model
Any model may replace her bolt pistol with
- a hand flamer: 5 points
- an inferno pistol: 15 points
Any model may replace her power weapon and storm shield with an Eviscerator: +5 points
The Principality Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a plasma pistol: 15 points
The Principality Superior may take melta bombs: 5 points
Design notes:
Spoiler:
Start with a Seraphim: 15 points
Add +1 Attack (+10 per 3 models by Ovion's guidelines): +3.33
Add +1 Ld (+5 per 3 model, according to Ovion): 1.67
Replace Hit & Run with Furious Charge: +/-0
Replace Angelic Visage with Shred: +/-0
Replace 1 bolt pistol with power weapon (same as the option now given a Seraphim Superior): +15
Add Storm Shield (using C:SM cost for giving one to Elites): +10
NET = 45 points
And the Superior has the same stats as the regulars, as in a Celestian squad.
You could argue this is overcosted because a 3++ storm shield is not worth quite as much when you already have a 6++ save from Shield of Faith, but with a homebrew unit I'm going to err on the side of more points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: Or you could give them an Act of Faith granting FNP, Stubborn, or wound re-rolls to emphasize their toughness and tarpittery.
Edited Feb. 27 to add Eviscerator option, because chainsaws from the sky.
Thanks! And that's a lot tidier mathematically, to calculate the cost per unit and then divide by the number of models to get PPM, rather than divide 3 or 5 or whatever at every step.
Now, I hate to argue for a higher price for my own homebrew units, but the thing I don't follow is how you're costing Power Weapons and Storm Shields:
- PW seems to be universally 15 points for a Superior or Sergeant, and these ladies essentially have a Superior's statlines (+1A and +1 Ld over basic troops); the difference is that they're not characters and therefore can't do Challenges, which is actually pretty significant. But still, discounting from 15 points for one non-independent-character to 15 points per three elite troops -- i.e. from 15 to 5 points per model -- seems steep.
- Storm Shields at 10 ppm for Vanguard Veterans -- who are arguably overpriced and only get them as an option, rather than as standard kit, but still I have a hard time reconciling that with 20 points per 3 elites = 6.6 ppm.
I respect your logic, I'd just love you to lay it out.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I know it seems wierd, and sometimes I question it, or even change how I'm doing it, based on the feel of the model.
BUT, thanks to GWs fuzzy costing methods, and how I've read the math, it seems to be that 'base' gear tends to be costed the same as 'base' stats.
For example - Repentia are 14pts each. An Eviscerator on its own is 30pts. Shield of Faith is 5pts. So that's 35pts of stuff right there And so on.
Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter and Power Weapon for a CSM lord / CSM sorc costs 40pts OVER Power Armour, a CCW, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades (Easily 20pts worth of gear by HQ standards). So that's 60pts equivalent. CSM Termis are 31pts each. (Hell, Power Weapon +Storm Bolter is 20pts on its own, let alone the armour and statline) However, 3 C.Space Marines +40pts for Armour, Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, +15 for +1 A, Ld (94) divided by 3 is 31.3.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/02 21:58:17
In any case, eyeballing the unit, others have said the current is overcosted at 45 points, which I'd agree with, so I'm perfectly happy at 35 points
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
