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Railguns wrote:It will probably overheat if it hits too many models (ie more than 3) and kill the user, exploding with a large blast template that is S5 ap4 that hits your own unit.

As long as the flamer has at least a somewhat respectable stat line ie: ST3 AP - that's fine. Just run the suicide squad next to the target and have it blow up, autohitting S5 ap4 could be useful.

What random bio weapons Norn queens have the ability to pick and choose DNA randomness is chaos.

FlammingGaunt wrote:What random bio weapons Norn queens have the ability to pick and choose DNA randomness is chaos.

I'm really curious about what these new units are going to be... But every time I try to think of what new Tyranid creature GW might think up, I keep recalling Iorek's Pan-Fo list;

Large units of Skittlybarbs, Fluxtangous with multi-glazebeam cannon, Thoraxbenders with extra dusters...

Any whispers on what the new Tyranid units really are?

Zerglings, Hydralisks, Banelings, and Overlords. Is this the right thread?

The Fenrisian Wolves give me hope that Hormagaunts might actually be reasonably costed. 6 points or something? Of course, even if they were 3 points apiece, they'd still get WTFPWNED by No Retreat and be pretty useless.

Power creep prevalent as it may be, no Tyranid player who played with prior codices has any faith in GW to increase the power of their army. This whole Anti-Nid Space Furries thing is just a further kick in the pants.

If I recall correctly, aren't Tyranids the only army that actually got weaker with each new book since their inception? As HBMC said earlier, GW seems to be an edition behind on the balancing curve and decided that since Nidzilla was dominating a year ago, Space Wolves needed a "Kill Carnifexes on a 3+" power with unlimited range and no targeting restrictions. I shudder to think how badly genestealers are going to get hammered with this book. Carnifexes will take a hit for sure, but I think it won't be as big as stealers, simply because GW loves to sell those Carnifex kits.


Edit: Oops, it's actually called the "Kill Carnifexes on a 2+ if they didn't take the Adrenal(I) upgrade, but if they did, it's still a 3+" power.

Certain aspects of the Tyranids will be 'overbalanced' by GW because, yes, GW is always an edition behind when it comes to fixing mistakes. We will see some units that did work in 4th Ed but now don't in 5th Ed be 'balanced' because of the power they had in the past (Genestealers being the prime candidate for this).

But 'Nids are also going to get a huge focus shift away from Nidzilla and towards hordes of Gaunts and Warriors. As much as I hate pendulum game design, this is one time I will welcome it if it comes to pass. Tyranids need to be about waves of lesser creatures backed up by small groups of bigger creatures and a few massive ones, not a giant clump of MC's with a few smaller ones only because they have to be there.

Railguns wrote:If I recall correctly, aren't Tyranids the only army that actually got weaker with each new book since their inception?

I don't think so. Nidzilla was very effective when it came out, and definitely set a new high-water mark in terms of Nid effectiveness.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Certain aspects of the Tyranids will be overbalanced, yes, because GW is always an edition behind when it comes to fixing mistakes or simply forgets that they fixed them (5th Ed nerfed Rending, 'fixing' the problem... yet Assault Cannons in the Marine Codex that came straight after went up in cost to 'balance' their power... their power in 4th Ed that is).

But 'Nids are also going to get a huge focus shift away from Nidzilla and towards hordes of Gaunts and Warriors. As much as I hate pendulum game design, this is one time I will welcome it if it comes to pass. Tyranids need to be about waves of lesser creatures backed up by small groups of bigger creatures and a few massive ones, not a giant clump of MC's with a few smaller ones only because they have to be there.

I would still like the option to run a bunch of Carnifexs with a swarm of lesser creatures. I'm expecting the codex to have everything for dirt cheap compared to the last dex. The last few codexs seem to be quite a bit nastier then the other dozen or so armies. IG, Orks, and SM (Until SW came out). The codex creep is showing. Good chance that nids will end up being OP/Cheesy. Also GW will sell TONS of gaunts.

MilkmanAl wrote:The Fenrisian Wolves give me hope that Hormagaunts might actually be reasonably costed...

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

If most of my models suddenly get much, much better than I'm all for that pendulum to swing, as long as the 4 monstrous creatures I do used don't become useless.

Broods of Carnifex (whats the plural of carnifex; carnifi?) - that is all

If

we put ourselves in the game designer shoes, and understand the company perogatives: such as selling more models and disturbing the status quo:

Then they have to leave the carnifex more or less as it is, but remove the way you can bring in three as elites.

That kills nidzilla with half a line of army list text.

They can take a single point off the cost of gaunts and by that simplest change encourage a "more balanced" army list.

Then they can just do a few tweaks with warriors, ravenors, biovores so that these can all be viable options:

And look at creating a new range of leader types:

SUPER RAVENER

LICTOR LEADER

return of the RED MENACE.

And as some clear thinking comment noted add PLASTIC gargoyles,

and you will have a fantastic re-write that just created a whole bunch of new army types.

If players are encouraged to go for a variety of builds by different looking armies that can win in different ways it will be good.

If some builds allow warriors as troops for example, or gargoyles as troops, then you could have smaller elite style armies as viable options People will buy and play. We do want to make different or even unique builds if we can, but can't if the units aren't good enough.

The worst thing in design is codex is having too few lynchpin units. That leads to a narrowing idea of potential builds, and you end up with twin lash chaos: a design disaster because it can't produce enough variations of winning builds.

The devolution of tyrannids to nidzilla was inevitable. It was the direct result of the absolute power to points value of the hive tyrant and the carnifex. However you tool them or play them no possible combination of smaller gaunts could match them for the sheer survivability of those wounds at T6, not for the CC and shooting, since the big nids are hands down best in all departments. Six strength 8 assault weapon templates in the form of carnifex barbed stranglers are damn cheap power at 20 points a pop, much more than worth their weight in gaunts and T4 warriors. A good nidzilla kept a few small squads of genestealers in the shadows to support the big boys in CC.

I don't mind if they nerf nidzilla. To do so fairly they will have to make it possible to build a BLITZ (flying) list, a mid sized list, or a gaunt centered list.

But best will be if it will be possible to have around three or four different ideas that are equally viable.

Lets hope they get it right.

OTG.

Plastic Gargoyles have been on EVERYONE'S wishlist since 3rd edition; we all expect it so it's hardly an insight from a clear thinker as it is a common expectation. The monstrous creatures don't need a nerfing in power level as much as they need to be kept to their own force org slots, as you said. However, Carnifexes already out-compete everything else in heavy support so much that you rarely, if ever, see Biovores or Zoanthropes. Zoanthropes only ever get played in "for fun" lists or in psychic scream parties with occasional warp blast support. Biovores are just plain underpowered. I'm curious to see how they handle heavy support, because the Carnifex needs tweaking too; my main concern being that we are forced to take an I upgrade just to attack before powerfists(this makes the upgrade mandatory and is therefore an illusory option).

I think the carnifex is going to get a little nerfed ( just a little) so that the new bug which is supposed to be bigger can look even more badass.

grizgrin wrote:Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

I know.

FlammingGaunt wrote:I think the carnifex is going to get a little nerfed ( just a little) so that the new bug which is supposed to be bigger can look even more badass.

Interesting that you should say that.

I was hoping that the WL not being broken as of the 5th Ed rulebook would lead to it staying about the same for the most recent Codex, but it got nerfed in rules and points and option stats.

So I'm guessing that the Fex will be nerfed HARD.

The poor thing will probably have an I1, WS and BS2, T5, S8, A1 LD5 4+ save statline before upgrades, and cost 100 points base.

I would cry and start a new army if that happened.

I remember the Hive Tyrant was base S6 in 3rd edition, and then moved down to base 5 in 4th. That left me a bit miffed. I still use my two, but it's still disappointing.


OH GOD it just hit me. What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.

If they do that, they will also make them more survivable and deadly... Or not, and force people to utilize Tyrant Guard...

OH GOD it just hit me. What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.

not likely considering rumors of plastic tyrant
I'm pretty sure carnifex is going to lose the ability to get str 10 i just hope they don't make it so he can't hit anything.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Railguns wrote:If I recall correctly, aren't Tyranids the only army that actually got weaker with each new book since their inception?

I don't think so. Nidzilla was very effective when it came out, and definitely set a new high-water mark in terms of Nid effectiveness.

Railguns wrote:I remember the Hive Tyrant was base S6 in 3rd edition, and then moved down to base 5 in 4th. That left me a bit miffed. I still use my two, but it's still disappointing.


OH GOD it just hit me. What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.

Hell, I was crushed when they 0-1's flyrants. I put a lot of time, effort, and money into my flyrants, and now I can only use one or the other? feth off.

Does anyone think they'll try to encourage less 'Fexes by leaving the Venom cannon gimped, but giving Zoanthropes and Biovores much better anti-tank potential?

I have suspected for a while that one of the new units will be either an anti-tank spore mine or a Biovore variant with a massive cannon on it's back for taking out tanks.

Phazer

I imagine they'll buff Raveners and lictors. Raveners will probably be able to DS and assault, and have flesh hooks standard.

I think carnifexes will stay elite or heavy, but they'll be adding the Trygon supposedly, so that'll be the new heavy hitter on the block.

Everything not MC will probably become cheaper.

Railguns wrote:What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.

Is a Hive Tyrant a Special Character? If not, you have nothing to fear.
____

The Phazer wrote:Does anyone think they'll try to encourage less 'Fexes by leaving the Venom cannon gimped, but giving Zoanthropes and Biovores much better anti-tank potential?

Yes.

I think the Fex will be kinda like this:
- ranged Venom Cannon, etc. move to fixed, no-maths S values (so sorry for high-S Fexes...)
- Feces will require Synapse minders or suffer Rage (oops, you bought ranged guns?!?)
- Feces will cost more points, but drop to BS1 (but you can pay for twin-link to get back to the old BS2-equivalent
This is a full Wraithlord-template nerf with Rage instead of Wraithsight, and BS1 instead of losing an attack

The Zo will be very precise, like a walking AP2 ID machine, while the Vore will use big effect templates

Railguns wrote:OH GOD it just hit me. What if Hive Tyrants become 0-1? I'd be crushed.

Requiring players to buy less models? Won't happen.

Feces will cost more points

What a sh**ty deal! ZING! I'll be here all week, folks. Tip your waitress.