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Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

So you're saying you're going to give up on the book because your squads(which come with LD8 Sgts standard now) can't test on someone else's LD9? Why not just bring a LD10 Cannoness with LD bubble book if that's true?

I could do that. But isn't that kind of sad when a 5th edition codex needs to depend on a codex from 3rd edition just to get some piddly order out?

I'm sorry. I really want to like this codex. I really want to. But when you have to be within 12 inches of a commander just to get an order (which really was one of the big reasons I wanted to get this codex), and you can't even use his LD, feth, what's left?

Everything I was excited for has been pretty much shown to be worthless, at least, in my eyes. 16 point stormtroopers...40 point Ogryns...I'm wondering what little else there is left that could ruin my excitement, at least, what little left of it there is?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Speaking of drama, middle, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE prove this wrong!

From Warseer

Nuc;3411009 wrote:
The vox caster is 5 points, the only thing this is doing is to allow to reroll the test for taking in order. NOTHING more! No capability of transferring in order to a squat out of order range which is 12” for company command and 6” for platoon command. No capability for transferring the leadership skill, so you can not use the leadership skill of your commander. Actually you can not use his skill at all for any test even if you’re in range. The whole using leadership of the command squad is gone!

If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

This rumor was debunked. You CAN send orders through the vox. Just not Ld, unless you have Kell.

And the CCS has a vox, same as everyone else, because they all work the same. There is no more need of a "master vox".

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

So you're saying you're going to give up on the book because your squads(which come with LD8 Sgts standard now) can't test on someone else's LD9? Why not just bring a LD10 Cannoness with LD bubble book if that's true?

I could do that. But isn't that kind of sad when a 5th edition codex needs to depend on a codex from 3rd edition just to get some piddly order out?

I'm sorry. I really want to like this codex. I really want to. But when you have to be within 12 inches of a commander just to get an order (which really was one of the big reasons I wanted to get this codex), and you can't even use his LD, feth, what's left?

Everything I was excited for has been pretty much shown to be worthless, at least, in my eyes. 16 point stormtroopers...40 point Ogryns...I'm wondering what little else there is left that could ruin my excitement, at least, what little left of it there is?

/insert random emo band (might as well make this one retroactive on all your posts in this thread )




It would be unfortunate if Voxes didn't allow long range Orders, but it is nothing that can not be worked around. Just means platoons need to move together so that they stay close to their Officer.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Speaking of drama, middle, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE prove this wrong!

From Warseer

Nuc;3411009 wrote:
The vox caster is 5 points, the only thing this is doing is to allow to reroll the test for taking in order. NOTHING more! No capability of transferring in order to a squat out of order range which is 12” for company command and 6” for platoon command. No capability for transferring the leadership skill, so you can not use the leadership skill of your commander. Actually you can not use his skill at all for any test even if you’re in range. The whole using leadership of the command squad is gone!

If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

This rumor was debunked. You CAN send orders through the vox. Just not Ld, unless you have Kell.

And the CCS has a vox, same as everyone else, because they all work the same. There is no more need of a "master vox".

Thank you.

@Box Ant- Not needed. Ignored.

Mahanon: Overseer + 4 psykers for 60pts and then another 5 at 10pts each. Sure it was in the write up.

Frazzled has put the goodies from this thread into his sticky so if it's hard to flick through 20 odd pages then i'd head there for reference.

Cheers Frazzled.

Psyker battle squad has 36" range on both of it's powers.

Primaris has 24" iirc on both powers.

CCS and PCS can both take a vox for 5. It is just a bog standard vox, no master vox anymore. Why take one? Can't have a telephone conversation with one telephone.

The squad and the officers squad must both have a vox to get the re-roll.

Vladsimpaler: I'm quite sure I saw that it has unlimited range, but I won't put money on it. I was looking at A LOT of stuff so could have got mixed up ala power armour techpriests.

I will get this checked for you all because it is a big issue.

oh and the cost of the techpriest - MAN you are doing major Job - big thx !!!

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

So you're saying you're going to give up on the book because your squads(which come with LD8 Sgts standard now) can't test on someone else's LD9? Why not just bring a LD10 Cannoness with LD bubble book if that's true?

I could do that. But isn't that kind of sad when a 5th edition codex needs to depend on a codex from 3rd edition just to get some piddly order out?

I'm sorry. I really want to like this codex. I really want to. But when you have to be within 12 inches of a commander just to get an order (which really was one of the big reasons I wanted to get this codex), and you can't even use his LD, feth, what's left?

Everything I was excited for has been pretty much shown to be worthless, at least, in my eyes. 16 point stormtroopers...40 point Ogryns...I'm wondering what little else there is left that could ruin my excitement, at least, what little left of it there is?

So your pissed that despite an army wide ld boost you can't use the leadership of a single model stuffed in a tank? Cry moar? Statistically it will be rare to fail orders, voxes are there to ensure that the orders will be followed on squads where you think it will be consistently important. Two hq choices spread 24" apart can cover your entire table edge in orders rolled against a leadership of 8 or better. I don't see them as required, good placement can replace a vox network.

You're not trying to like this codex. You clearly don't want too. Every post you've made has basically been a poorly thought out rantwhine. At least HBMC complains in a surly fashion.

middle wrote:Mahanon: Overseer + 4 psykers for 60pts and then another 5 at 10pts each. Sure it was in the write up.

Psyker battle squad has 36" range on both of it's powers.

Hmmm 100pts for a squad of 8pyskers (and 1 overseer), can reduce Ld10 to 2 and drop S8 pie from inside a chimera?

The 36" range just seals it for me, that's going to be awesome

I look forward to trying out this unit! (just need to buy more... sigh... psykers... )




Vlad: sorry if I hurt your feelings

And ShumaTroll Strikes Again!

Seriously dude, can you just not try to pick a fight with anybody on anythread for 1 day even??

Feth

ShumaGorath wrote:
So your pissed that despite an army wide ld boost you can't use the leadership of a single model stuffed in a tank? Cry moar?

No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

Statistically it will be rare to fail orders, voxes are there to ensure that the orders will be followed on squads where you think it will be consistently important. Two hq choices spread 24" apart can cover your entire table edge in orders rolled against a leadership of 8 or better. I don't see them as required, good placement can replace a vox network.

With voxes, it will be rare to fail LD. I definitely agree on that. If you use orders, they are very handy to have.
Since it's been debunked that you have to be within 12", that's a good thing. However, I'm kind of confused when you say that good placement can replace a vox network. (And I'm not trying to be argumentative or else you'll call me an a drunk...)
Voxes allow you to reroll LD tests for orders. Regardless of whether you are in range or not they're useful if you use orders.

You're not trying to like this codex. You clearly don't want too. Every post you've made has basically been a poorly thought out rantwhine. At least HBMC complains in a surly fashion.

My support for this codex is lukewarm. I like Pask, I like Harker, I like the Lumbering Behemoth rule, I like that Veterans are troops, and I like that you can have Drive By Chimeras, and I like that you can have Valkyries.

If you truly read every post that I've made in this thread (which I'm sure you haven't) then you will see a couple posts that are in support of this codex.

I know I look stupid and I know that you hate me (and so does everyone else here) but generalizations really don't help.

That ^, and leave me out of it...

Shhhh....

He is Vatching You.........

Vladsimpaler wrote:No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

It's been dropped arbitrarily, like so many other arbitrary things in this Codex. I mean... Officer Leadership has been part of the game since 2nd Ed. It worked. Guard Commanders based deployment strategies around it. I'm all for shaking up the metagame, but the wholesale removal of a core Guard rule is just... pointless. Why do it? And yes, I acknowledge that it isn't as necessary now with every squad having a Veteran Sergeant (all Guard Sergeants are Veterans? All the time?), but I still don't see the point.

No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

I would assume that it was replaced by the commissar lords ld bubble and the army wide LD increase. Having all three wouldn't be game breaking but it would go a long way towards removing moral from the game of warhammer 40k. The guard are one of the few remaining armies that really cares about leadership tests, and I always liked that aspect.

With voxes, it will be rare to fail LD. I definitely agree on that. If you use orders, they are very handy to have.
Since it's been debunked that you have to be within 12", that's a good thing. However, I'm kind of confused when you say that good placement can replace a vox network. (And I'm not trying to be argumentative or else you'll call me an a drunk...)

I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say. You are not drunk. I am the drunk one this time.

My support for this codex is lukewarm. I like Pask, I like Harker, I like the Lumbering Behemoth rule, I like that Veterans are troops, and I like that you can have Drive By Chimeras, and I like that you can have Valkyries.

If you truly read every post that I've made in this thread (which I'm sure you haven't) then you will see a couple posts that are in support of this codex.

I know I look stupid and I know that you hate me (and so does everyone else here) but generalizations really don't help.

In 24 pages the majority of your posts have been pretty far from positive. But you're right, generalizations don't help and there have been some marks of interest.

And ShumaTroll Strikes Again!

Seriously dude, can you just not try to pick a fight with anybody on anythread for 1 day even??

Shouldn't you be inflating your post count by posting in one of green bow flys spam threads? Or is this one of those threads? Was it moved?

It's been dropped arbitrarily, like so many other arbitrary things in this Codex. I mean... Officer Leadership has been part of the game since 2nd Ed. It worked. Guard Commanders based deployment strategies around it. I'm all for shaking up the metagame, but the wholesale removal of a core Guard rule is just... pointless. Why do it? And yes, I acknowledge that it isn't as necessary now with every squad having a Veteran Sergeant (all Guard Sergeants are Veterans? All the time?), but I still don't see the point.

I think that they are trying to make the commanders tactical leaders and the commisars the leadership guys. They are trying to separate the roles without hampering the armies capability.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

It's been dropped arbitrarily, like so many other arbitrary things in this Codex. I mean... Officer Leadership has been part of the game since 2nd Ed. It worked. Guard Commanders based deployment strategies around it. I'm all for shaking up the metagame, but the wholesale removal of a core Guard rule is just... pointless. Why do it? And yes, I acknowledge that it isn't as necessary now with every squad having a Veteran Sergeant (all Guard Sergeants are Veterans? All the time?), but I still don't see the point.

Honestly you should have seen it coming when the new SM codex got rid of Rites of Battle, or whatever it was called.

The way they've set prices in this codex, if a vox could carry an order AND leadership score, they would have been even higher priced, and therefore good at nothing. Honestly, I'd rather have the Orders. But then again, I only ever ran a JO anyway.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
So your pissed that despite an army wide ld boost you can't use the leadership of a single model stuffed in a tank? Cry moar?

No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

Statistically it will be rare to fail orders, voxes are there to ensure that the orders will be followed on squads where you think it will be consistently important. Two hq choices spread 24" apart can cover your entire table edge in orders rolled against a leadership of 8 or better. I don't see them as required, good placement can replace a vox network.

With voxes, it will be rare to fail LD. I definitely agree on that. If you use orders, they are very handy to have.
Since it's been debunked that you have to be within 12", that's a good thing. However, I'm kind of confused when you say that good placement can replace a vox network. (And I'm not trying to be argumentative or else you'll call me an a drunk...)
Voxes allow you to reroll LD tests for orders. Regardless of whether you are in range or not they're useful if you use orders.

it's not an army wide ld boost. i used to field a HSO and a platoon junior officer with the HI (or whatever the item that made him a HSO is). leadership bubbles combined with doctrines and voxes in every possible squad meant that almost my entire army was effectively ld9 with no penalties for being under half/outnumbered. going to ld8 due to squad sergeants is a DEMOTION. and before you tell me i can field a commissar for ld9 and stubborn, he'll cost at least 35 points per regular squad. currently, i can do the same with a vox (10pts IIRC) per squad and another 15pts for doctrines/vox in the platoon command.

as for rarely failing order checks with voxes, ld8 is slightly better than a 50% chance of succeeding. with rerolls that means you have approximately a 1/5 chance of failing even with the vox. i did it plenty of times yesterday due to somewhat worse than average rolling since i had 4 orders per turn. it'll happen more than you think!

Ozymandias wrote:Geez, he got a rule wrong, so crucify him cause no one else has ever gotten rules wrong before. Also, I don't think he was refering to 5 pt power weapons when he talks about crutches, that's just you making inferences with no basis in anything actually said.

I don't agree with everything Shummy said, but at least attack him for things that are real instead of putting words in his mouth and harping on a rule he got wrong.

The only thing that I could think of that "they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with." would apply to would be the power weapons, because this is what the conversation was centered on, and which Shum thinks were too good before, and that nobody used before, thus matching the description of a crutch that nobody used. He also for a long time talked about vendettas tank shocking whole armies, which was why I jokingly said that this could happen in Shumhammer when I replied to someone referencing it. How is any of this putting words in his mouth, or being super harsh?

As for commissars and officers, and their roles in leadership, I am actually happy fluff-wise with commissars enforcing morale and officers directing units with orders. Unfortunately this change means that many units, particularly heavy weapons which already got hit by 2 wound (insta-killable) nerf, will be prone to running away a lot.

ubermosher wrote:Honestly you should have seen it coming when the new SM codex got rid of Rites of Battle, or whatever it was called.

Hardly.

Rites of Battle was removed because it was a stupendously overpowered and ill-thought-out rule. Ld10 for my entire army just for existing? I hope the person who came up with that rule got punched in the stomach really hard for that one. And in the context of 4th Ed, with Leadership-Based shooting, it was even worse.

No, Rites of Battle is gone because it needed to be gone. Guard Leadership Bubbles are gone because Arby can't write a proper list.

H.B.M.C. wrote:No, Rites of Battle is gone because it needed to be gone.

Funny, it's still in my Green Marines Codex(Don't actually respond to this, H.B.M.C., I'm just yankin yer chain).

The only thing that I could think of that "they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with." would apply to would be the power weapons, because this is what the conversation was centered on, and which Shum thinks were too good before, and that nobody used before, thus matching the description of a crutch that nobody used. He also for a long time talked about vendettas tank shocking whole armies, which was why I jokingly said that this could happen in Shumhammer when I replied to someone referencing it. How is any of this putting words in his mouth, or being super harsh?

I was talking about the sword being a crutch that people left at home. The guard army could walk just fine, hell it could run. It just didn't crabwalk. Crabwalking is great for some armies, but the crutch wasn't going to help them crabwalk, since they didn't want to crabwalk. Hell, even with the crutch they couldn't really crabwalk.

Crutches don't help you crabwalk, you need to be a crab for that.



As for the vendetta issue I couldn't remember if it was ramming only that you had to be a tank to do or if tank shocking also applied. Also I wrote two posts mentioning it, I'm not sure if that qualifies for a long time .

ShumaGorath wrote:

The only thing that I could think of that "they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with." would apply to would be the power weapons, because this is what the conversation was centered on, and which Shum thinks were too good before, and that nobody used before, thus matching the description of a crutch that nobody used. He also for a long time talked about vendettas tank shocking whole armies, which was why I jokingly said that this could happen in Shumhammer when I replied to someone referencing it. How is any of this putting words in his mouth, or being super harsh?

I was talking about the sword being a crutch that people left at home. The guard army could walk just fine, hell it could run. It just didn't crabwalk. Crabwalking is great for some armies, but the crutch wasn't going to help them crabwalk, since they didn't want to crabwalk. Hell, even with the crutch they couldn't really crabwalk.

Crutches don't help you crabwalk, you need to be a crab for that.



As for the vendetta issue I couldn't remember if it was ramming only that you had to be a tank to do or if tank shocking also applied. Also I wrote two posts mentioning it, I'm not sure if that qualifies for a long time .

Not to be an a-hole or nothing, but what are you saying? I got all confused when you started talking about all of the "crabs" and "crabwalking", "Crabwalking is great for some armies, but the crutch wasn't going to help them crabwalk, since they didn't want to crabwalk. Hell, even with the crutch they couldn't really crabwalk.". ???????????????????????????

In summary: please clarify.

Anyway, @Vladsimpaler: I don't hate you. Now, granted, I don't know you very well at all and I guess I could end up hating you later, but atm I don't .

-A.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
No, Rites of Battle is gone because it needed to be gone. Guard Leadership Bubbles are gone because Arby can't write a proper list.

First of all, I went to Arby's last night for the first time in years b/c of your nickname for Robin Cruddance. Let's just say I wish you nicknamed him Wendy.

I see it more as a trend, but we agree about Rites needing to be gone, so let's leave it at that. For me it's really not much of an issue because I used a JO CHQ more often than not as my experience has been the Company Banner and it's bubble has been much more important than LD9 down a vox or a LD10 bubble with an overpriced Commissar.

According to what I've read, the Company Standard still grants a reroll within 12", so I'd rather have that effect that the Leadership special rule. Especially with all my sergeants going to NCO school and coming out at LD8.

So instead of a reroll Ld9 24" bubble, we have a 24" reroll Ld of the squad bubble, but we also get Ld8 outside that bubble for free.

Lets face it, IG leadership only has to be good enough to prevent squads from running from shooting, we're going to run from CC no matter what (unless we have a commissar).

I use a JO w/ a Standard right now, so really not much change for me.

The only burn is from the fact that HWS/SWS are left out in the cold :( That sucks, but just means you either throw them in chimeras or keep them near the CCS's banner (so they don't run).

In summary: please clarify.

We've all covered it a lot. Basically I'm of the opinion that a five point power sword was too good because mathematically it gave the IG with them an unfair investment to return points wise at 5 points(the crutch). People responded by saying that at 5 points they saw some but not widespread use of the power sword (no one really using the crutch) and that at 10 points no one would. The point being that they can't crabwalk (close combat) nor do they want too (an army heavilly invested in its shooting ability trying to close combat rather than shooting). And that even with their crutch they can't crabwalk (Even with the cheap swords they couldn't do close combat) because they aren't crabs (a close combat army).

Basically guard both can't and even when they "could" didn't want to invest in close combat because it was a wasted investment of points over what they were better at (shooting). So the sword might as well be costed what its "worth" (that being 7 or eight points, but GW doesn't really do 6-9 any more).


Anyway, this has all been hashed over to death. Back to the thread at hand.

Didn't the rumours mention Platoon Banners, so a 6" version of the Company Standard? If this is true, and they have the same rules just with a smaller radius, that would eliminate some of the problem.

ubermosher wrote:

First of all, I went to Arby's last night for the first time in years b/c of your nickname for Robin Cruddance. Let's just say I wish you nicknamed him Wendy.

I see it more as a trend, but we agree about Rites needing to be gone, so let's leave it at that. For me it's really not much of an issue because I used a JO CHQ more often than not as my experience has been the Company Banner and it's bubble has been much more important than LD9 down a vox or a LD10 bubble with an overpriced Commissar.

According to what I've read, the Company Standard still grants a reroll within 12", so I'd rather have that effect that the Leadership special rule. Especially with all my sergeants going to NCO school and coming out at LD8.

WHAT???? Arby's is awesome! Whatever. IMO I think the sgts. getting a boost in LD makes up for the worse CHQ. Besides, IG Ld. isn't that great anyway right? And, now you can keep squads away from the HQ (say, on objectives) and they'll run less.

okay, maybe i'm not seeing something, but why do they have both a Valkyrie and a Vendetta? other than the weapon load out they do basicly the same thing. so why not make 1 model and give it all the weapon options of both. at the risk of answering my own question, i think it's just to sell more models, but i could be wrong. thoughts people?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C., Still please accept my apology. It was not my intent to insult you, either.

Perhaps a case of leaping before you looked, hmm?

Actually just trying to be nice and give the benefit of the doubt to you. I find it odd that all other replies or comments towards me used a very different FF or full focusedfire. If I can look past the glaring change on this one post and give you the benefit of the doubt, then maybe you should do the same.

Also apology doesn't=my point being invalid. Please don't assume that because I'm trying to be very nice that I'm willing take a pass on the statement you made that game design should not be about possible weapon effectiveness. I stand by my point in this instance.

alarmingrick wrote: so why not make 1 model and give it all the weapon options of both.

Umm.. they ARE making one model. Separate unit entries =!= separate models. I'm pretty sure they expect us to either convert or buy expensive upgrade sprues(like the rumoured Deff Rolla sprue) to make the Vendetta.

umm.. thanks, I think.
what i'm saying is why have two different entries for a unit that basicly is the same except for the weapon options for the 2 different entries.
edited
for me sounding like an ass