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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

I think your mixing up two things . What GW can make with the price , being more or less a monopolists in the table gaming market and what is good for the wargaming WFB/W40k community future growth . I said it in a post before . When 2k becomes the standard size non tournament game and the price of stuff looks like it looks like it does right now , then new guys offten dont get to 2k pts before they quit way before that. Now veterans of course love that in a short run , because it does generate a steady second hand market . What it does not generate future long time players . Right now the hobby here is made out of dudes who started in the 90s early 2000s who can afford to switch armies or buy new ones and kids who start armies and never finish.

Alright so i think we might be getting a little off topic here, we are nto talking about the hobby, we are talking about the codex specifically and the rules bbook has also crept into the discussion to an exxtent.

the issue here is not so much the hobby but paying double for the exact same thing in terms of contentt. yeah okay shiny hardback, color pages, i get that, its cool. However there is no other option to simply get the (actual) rules and changed bits.

you are essentially forced to buy 90% of the exact same thing alll over again for double price.

paying $20-$30 for a single figure...i can live with that if it's a new model and stuff. yes the models are a bit pricey but it's not crazy....tho i'm not talking about finecast here lol, i dont' even know where to begin on that. but i digress.

there is a clear lack of options, you don't have to do away with price rises and expensive books, but i think you should also have an option to keep you in the hobby or keep you upgrading without essentially startign from the very beggingin in terms of books.

It really wasn't about the codex, but it was a cry-fest over an "unwanted full color, hardbound" book.

Everybody knows GW is expensive. You think making a thread about it is going to cause them to call a huge board meeting and drop prices? Nope. Pay, or dont pay. If you cant afford it, get on your local employment website and get a better job. Im here for the fluff, the image, the quality. I knew what I was getting into, and Im here to stay. If you dont like it, simply piss off because carrying on over it will affect NOTHING.

We are like wise here to stay and I believe this is a discussion thread about the outragouse chaos codex. Since price was listed as one of the reasons it stands to reason we would discuss other pricing conserns for other products of the company. These discussions do matter. They help companies determine their products reception to their customers. Just because you label us a wienners doesn't make it so. You two seem to enjoy jumping into threads and attacking other posters opinions rather rudely I might add. One of you in particular I seem to see quit a lot of lately aggressively attacking people in multiple threads. Just calm down. We're not insulting you in anyway, their is no need to be rude.

At the very least i think that these discussions, even if they don't influence the company directly can change it's user base slightly.

I for one will not be spending any money at a GW store for quite a while to come, and you might call me morally bankrupt but i will find a cheaper way or even free way of getting the rules i need to continue playing.

What this means is revenue lost fo rGW on this occasion, and thats 1 thing that big companies will feel. Maybe in discussions such as these mor epeople will make an impact .

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Everybody knows GW is expensive. You think making a thread about it is going to cause them to call a huge board meeting and drop prices? Nope. Pay, or dont pay. If you cant afford it, get on your local employment website and get a better job. Im here for the fluff, the image, the quality. I knew what I was getting into, and Im here to stay. If you dont like it, simply piss off because carrying on over it will affect NOTHING.

do you know what the unemployment rate in the 18-25 age group is right now in europe ?

 DONUTSREVENGED wrote:
The only problem I have with the price rises and all is that I see wide eyed children that are the age I was at when I started (back when it was A LOT cheaper) and I just feel so sad for them that they are just going to be cold shouldered by GW unless they are spoilt rotten by their perants. This is a great hobby to get into but the problem is that GW is making that door smaller and smaller...

I really wish we could get through to gamesworkshop with this issue, but unless we do so together, we are not going to see anything happen. In order for anything that we say to be taken seriously there needs to be at least a couple of 1000 people voicing their concerns if not more.

Your first paragraph is the primary reason I am unhappy with their pricing schemes. I make beaucoup bucks these days so the prices don't really impact me directly. They impact me by friends who do not make as much as me wanting to get in and join the hobby with me, but just can't even remotely be able to afford to do so. With a start up cost of around $500 to get your rules, codex, and a 1500 point army most of the time, not even including paints and other hobby supplies to use, the game is out of the reach of many. Yeah it is a "luxury", but that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to share the hobby with my friends. I can readily supply armies to field an entire 4 player game myself, but even with that people eventually want to build their own army, based on their own ideas and interests and not necessarily on mine.

There needs to be more than just 1000 people. The GW gaming community would have to step up en masse to really get through to GW, but that is unlikely to happen at any point.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rogues Gambit wrote:
there is a clear lack of options, you don't have to do away with price rises and expensive books, but i think you should also have an option to keep you in the hobby or keep you upgrading without essentially startign from the very beggingin in terms of books.

I am curious as to how many games you play where the company makes big shiny fancy rulebooks for a serious price and then at the same time offers a dirt cheap alternative to players as well? I can't think of any. There definitely are companies that make their rules available for free to support the mini lines they are creating, but that isn't the same animal. No company that is charging for its rulebooks does that. Yeah there are options like buying a starter set to get the "mini" rulebook, I don't think that is the kind of thing you are refering to here. It is a simple solution of: You want the book you buy the book. Not oh you want the book, but don't like the price so here you can download a bare bones version for free from our website instead...

Skriker

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Actually in the context that SoloFalcon put it, yes, they are; they are both items which you might lust after with a passion but neither of which you need.

 Skriker wrote:


I am curious as to how many games you play where the company makes big shiny fancy rulebooks for a serious price and then at the same time offers a dirt cheap alternative to players as well? I can't think of any. There definitely are companies that make their rules available for free to support the mini lines they are creating, but that isn't the same animal. No company that is charging for its rulebooks does that. Yeah there are options like buying a starter set to get the "mini" rulebook, I don't think that is the kind of thing you are refering to here. It is a simple solution of: You want the book you buy the book. Not oh you want the book, but don't like the price so here you can download a bare bones version for free from our website instead...
Skriker

I just started Malifaux, and that is exactly what they do.

There are 3 Big Core Rule Books for each edition, which is packed with color pictures and fluff, and they each run you about 35 dollars- each one updates the last one as they change editions. They are the only way to get fluff for the backgrounds, and also the best way to check out the statlines and learn the rules for all of the enemy factions. They are really pretty books.

But hey, if thats not your thing, you can grab a really small portable rulebook thats about the size of the mini GW rulebooks for about 15 dollars. It doesn't have any fluff, or unit stats, but because the models come with stat cards it gives you everything you need to play when combined with your models. This is what I use as its not too expensive, and the perfect size for slipping into my miniatures bag.

Of you can download all of the rules for free right from their website... but obviously a pdf isn't as easy to reference as the small booklet.

I know that Wyrd is a lot smaller then GW, but you have to realize that both of them consider themselves miniature companies, not rules companies. The rules admitted by GW are just supposed to be a catalyst to get people excited to buy their miniatures.

 Crystal Geyser wrote:
This thread is starting to become quite inspirational!

This thread is becoming ridiculous.

A. The codex is way overpriced. Printing these codices is not becoming soooooo much more expensive that it justifies the price increase. Especially if, as rumored, the layout team is slacking off with old photos and rehashed fluff. This is a phenomenon where the lack of projected growth vs. overhead costs is what causes the inflation, not "market demand". The hardcover should be an option for someone like me who does in fact want to purchase it. I like it and want something that looks nice standing up on my shelf. A less pricey version in softcover should also be available and the PDF, across all platforms, version should be slightly less than the softcover. It's not market demand, it's called not fething your customers in the bunghole. By separating the two they would have created an artificial demand that would have made both sides happy.

B. The models are going to increase in price. Petrol is increasing in price and that snowballs like a biatch. Sorry, but it's the truth.

I don't want to offend anyone, but this thread hasn't evolved, it's just become bloated.

@Necroshea

We may be measuring with different standards here. I understand where you're coming from and I may have sounded pessimistic. That was not my intent. Realistically speaking, it takes much more effort than most people are willing to put in to gather armies in the way we both appear to have done. Most cheaper finds will not include the choicest bits and flavors, just the basics. Time and patience and a solid game plan are indeed necessary to collecting second-hand. I personally choose to use only local second-hand as I've been screwed by Ebay sellers before. Also, when placing a monetary value on my time vs. making it a matter of pride, I can afford to purchase regularly and with more patience than some others here. Being in it for the long haul, so to speak, gives one a different perspective.

I also refinish furniture for my house and that's far more expensive a hobby. Perhaps it's simply that there's where I choose to spend my money and also it's expense makes this hobby look cheap.

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

In a way it is.

GW could never ever compete on low-price. Look at Reaper throwing out 300+ miniatures for US$100,- Imagine some Chinese/Indian/Indonesian company starting up and putting out cheap mini's and free pdf-rulebooks on top of it.. Even if GW cut back literally everything but making cheap minis, cut their prices by 90%, 95%, etc.. , they'd still be more expensive.

GW is "skimming" the top of their niche (just as Ferrari is skimming the top of the car market because they cannot compete with mass-produced VW or Toyota on price).

Premium pricing is the practice of keeping the price of a product or service artificially high in order to encourage favorable perceptions among buyers, based solely on the price.[1] The practice is intended to exploit the (not necessarily justifiable) tendency for buyers to assume that expensive items enjoy an exceptional reputation or represent exceptional quality and distinction.A premium pricing strategy involves setting the price of a product higher than similar products. This strategy is sometimes also called skim pricing because it is an attempt to “skim the cream” off the top of the market.

Hell, the rulebook/expansion/codexes are the best example. There are quite a few companies out there that offer their rules for free. As far as rules goes, GW literally competes with "free". Ironic as it may be, Codexes and Rulebooks for US$ 2,50 cannot ever compete with "free". US$ 50,- Codexes or US$ 130,- Horus Heresy books, however, just might by capturing the very segment of the market that associates "free" with "ewww".

Of course GW has a quality and brand advantage.

GW quality is excellent and their brand is desirable.


If they simply dipped their prices to what they were 6 years ago they would likely see their sales skyrocket.

It doesn't have to be cheap, it just has to be at a point where some kid with a moderate allowance can actually play the game.

the core economic lesson here is simple. GW believes the average opurtunity cost is certain amount, and thats what people will pay for it. (and many do - as evidenced by the continuing trend of making things hard cover and more expensive)

if an individual cannot afford that cost, then they dont buy it. GW as a corporation, could really care less if you shell out the 60 bucks to buy it. because they have loads of other people who do. the corporation doesnt care if you think its overpriced, or rehashed, recycled, over valued or anything. all it wants is the monehz. if not from you, then from someone else. and if not from product 6357235273 then from product 989089623792. its the way the world market works.

now, if a company came along that did warhammer the same or better, and sold for cheaper, then GW can lower its prices and become competetive, (or sue them... *cough apple lawyers gettin around these days! cough*) if they dont, then they will loose sales, and have to adjust.

the fact of the matter is, while there are plenty of wargame companys that make minitures, they really dont have the scale and mass coverage that GW has. they are, for the moment the "apple" of the wargame world. most competetors lack in one or more departments, and the minis are less detail, or made of pewter or resin, and not plastic. untill such a competetor (with the global influence and clout GW has atm) prices will remain the same, and probally continue to climb. give it 5 years. books will cost 100$ and a box of marines will be about 50-60$. and so on.

anyway... lunch break over early. i have to transfer all the data from my old obselete iphone 4gs to the new and awsomer 5. ...

 akaean wrote:
I just started Malifaux, and that is exactly what they do.

There are 3 Big Core Rule Books for each edition, which is packed with color pictures and fluff, and they each run you about 35 dollars- each one updates the last one as they change editions. They are the only way to get fluff for the backgrounds, and also the best way to check out the statlines and learn the rules for all of the enemy factions. They are really pretty books.

But hey, if thats not your thing, you can grab a really small portable rulebook thats about the size of the mini GW rulebooks for about 15 dollars. It doesn't have any fluff, or unit stats, but because the models come with stat cards it gives you everything you need to play when combined with your models. This is what I use as its not too expensive, and the perfect size for slipping into my miniatures bag.

Of you can download all of the rules for free right from their website... but obviously a pdf isn't as easy to reference as the small booklet.

I know that Wyrd is a lot smaller then GW, but you have to realize that both of them consider themselves miniature companies, not rules companies. The rules admitted by GW are just supposed to be a catalyst to get people excited to buy their miniatures.

Yes and malifaux is made by one of those smaller companies that is more interested in selling its minis than its rules. That is *not* Games Workshop. Games workshop wants every penny they can get. Also Wyrd didn't start out with the high priced fancy rulebooks either. They *added* that level for demand, so they went the opposite direction that people want GW to go which makes them an even odder egg in the nest. Either way they need to give people a reason to stop playing the established systems and move to theirs. I play Malifaux and am one of those players that wanted more information. I wanted to know the capabilities of units *before* I spent money on them and discovered that they didn't even remotely fit my plans for them. Only having the unit rules/cards in with the minis meant that you often didn't find out your hopes for a unit didn't work until after you already owned and opened it which kind of sucked...

Too many 40k players have proven time and time again that they need very specific and clear rules spoon fed to them in detail or they do what they can to completely rape the rules. Less equals more headaches in 40k land in my book...

Skriker

Again - guys, I feel this is getting too hostile.

Shouldn't have been crying to those who spend the same amount as you do in this game...

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Actually in the context that SoloFalcon put it, yes, they are; they are both items which you might lust after with a passion but neither of which you need.

That's a terrible analogy.

I don't get the amount of complaining this codex price tag generates. I understand the complaining about miniature prices, as you need lots of them, but you just need one codex for your army. It will last about five years, so extra 20 really doesn't matter. And you actually get something for that money. You might not have asked for colour and hardback, but it is not like they arbitrarily raised the price just for laughs.

Do Malifaux run gaming shops? No? Then they have different priorities than GW

A *lot* of GW money goes intot he shops, and retail space is expensive. Asking them to double their coedx line to satisfy people who dont want to spend £30 every 5 years isnt oging to happen, as that doubles the amount of stock they need to carry AND display. Which costs money

*cue people stating they should shut up shop, without realising the deleterious effect that would have on the hobby as a whole. They dont run these shops for fun but for a very, very specific reason

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do Malifaux run gaming shops? No? Then they have different priorities than GW

A *lot* of GW money goes intot he shops, and retail space is expensive. Asking them to double their coedx line to satisfy people who dont want to spend £30 every 5 years isnt oging to happen, as that doubles the amount of stock they need to carry AND display. Which costs money

*cue people stating they should shut up shop, without realising the deleterious effect that would have on the hobby as a whole. They dont run these shops for fun but for a very, very specific reason

Thats a fair point, I have to say i was not thinking about the shop fronts at all., but double product . sounds like double revenue for them, considering that i'm sure alot of people would buy a home codex and a go out nd play pamphlet codex.

but anyway i guess it's a moot point. For the most part, i am partially resolved to buying this new codex, i'll just have to budget for it, but be damned if i'm paying an OZ price, i'll pay what the rest fo the world pays.

Why are the Australian prices so much higher anyway? Is it some sort of bizarre tax thing?

no i dont' think so, but i do remember hearing that maybe someone from australia slept with the GW CEO's wife or something...anyway thats the rumor going around lol

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
If you cant afford it, get on your local employment website and get a better job.

This kind of attitude sickens me.

Back on topic. It is detrimental to new players, which I think is the problem. If you want a nice hard-cover book, with nice stories, there should be an option. There should also be an option for cheap army list with no added extras. This would not only satisfy many people's problems, but could even see GW making more money out of it as a lot of people would purchase both. One for the convenience and the other because the new army they just started is cool and they want to read the stories.

I also believe the prices in Oz are because of lack of manufacturing over there. Don't quote me on that though.

 Crimson wrote:
Why are the Australian prices so much higher anyway? Is it some sort of bizarre tax thing?

It's a combination of an old bs excuse from GW (exporting products to Australia is super duper expensive!) and a by product of our terrible dollar in the 90's. In the 90's, our dollar was about $3 per £1, so prices were obviously high. Now our dollar is quite good - about $1.65 per £1. The general public also knows shipping here isn't what GW makes it out to be.

So instead of revising their peice points, they embargoed us from importing from Europe and made up another bs excuse - wages are higher and rent is espensive. Bear in mind they pay their retail staff here about minimum for retail, and run tiny, tiny stores that any mom and pop store could rent and be profitable in. Very few are in prime retail space.

When you look at other industries though, the majority haven't changed their price points either, and you have retail giants like Harvey Norman petitioning the government to put sales tax on online sales to help them 'cope' with online stores offering better deals. The one disadvantage GW has in this arena over here is large chain stores will routinely run exceptionally good sales - for example, video games, are between 90au-110au new, but release week sales generally sit them at $70-$80. GW doesn't do this, because they don't feel the need to. They don't feel the need to because indie stores are very few and far between in Australia, so the competition isn't really here yet for the vast majority of casual gamers.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Grow up and realize that prices are there for a reason. Otherwise, Ferraris would be affordable. Everyone who has the mkney may buy one, but are they really a necessity? Nope. Same with hobbies.

Sooo, plastic toy soldiers are analogous to a Ferrari now?

Actually in the context that SoloFalcon put it, yes, they are; they are both items which you might lust after with a passion but neither of which you need.

That's a terrible analogy.

I'd respond saying that's a terrible argument, but it's not really an argument at all. It's just you not having anything better to say.

It's not a terrible analogy because it fits and makes sense, so I'd give the guy some credit. It's not like he ever made them comparable in price, but rather the aesthetic that they sit on.

 Rogues Gambit wrote:
At the very least i think that these discussions, even if they don't influence the company directly can change it's user base slightly.

I for one will not be spending any money at a GW store for quite a while to come, and you might call me morally bankrupt but i will find a cheaper way or even free way of getting the rules i need to continue playing.

What this means is revenue lost fo rGW on this occasion, and thats 1 thing that big companies will feel. Maybe in discussions such as these mor epeople will make an impact .

And here is the catch-22. As more people feel priced out, they look for "other" ways to acquire the rule sets, which means less people are buying the product, and GW need to increase the prices further to compensate.

Secondly, Oil prices. Oil prices have risen rapidly over the last few years, especially with the wars in the middle east. This effects fuel costs, which impact Gw's net costs when selling models AND plastic is made from oil.. Increased oil prices will result in increased plastic prices.

Thirdly, what people seem to forget is when you buy a codex, you don't just pay for a book. Your paying for printing, rules designers, play testers, word processing, professional layout, CAD services ect ect. These costs all need to be recovered somehow.

I'm not gonna sit here and tell you the rule book is a "great" price. I do think it's rather expensive; however, if you wanna play it, you gotta pay it. Thats what it boils down too.


Oh.. and at least they try to give you a hardback, full colour fluff filled book. They could toss out any old crap black and white book and still charge silly $$$'s for it.

People comparing Warhams to Ferrarris might literally be the funniest thing to ever happen on Dakka.

 Skriker wrote:
I am curious as to how many games you play where the company makes big shiny fancy rulebooks for a serious price and then at the same time offers a dirt cheap alternative to players as well? I can't think of any.

Infinity has their rules online for free and also sell the hardback rulebooks. They even have free army building software available to use both online and as a stand alone downloadable program.

In fact, Piazo has most of their core pathfinder stuff online as well, while still selling the books.