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 Grey Templar wrote:
Regarding your spoiler tag



Spoiler:
it looked sort of like an atalatl


Looks like...

Spoiler:
...a two-part weapon that can be used as a short spear or two blades.



If it's also throwable, maybe it'll get chucked at an undead dragon or something.

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Her claim does not supercede his because the Targ line of succession has already been broken via right of conquest. Targs got thrown out, Baratheons got picked by gods and men (as far as the law is concerned) to rule and did rule for 20 years. Her claim isn't any more legitimate then some guy walking up and saying that a thousand years ago before the Targs ruled the Johnsons were kings and thus as a Johnson descendant he has a claim.

More importantly, everyone over the age of 40 despises and mistrusts Targs. A Baratheon is currently in power, Baratheons have been in power for 20 years, why realistically would the Realm not pick another Baratheon if the option was there?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/15 20:54:51


 
   
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John will keep his knowledge hush hush, much to Sam's shagrin. Dany will find out about Gendry and feed him to her dragons. John will finally take a stand and say "you may be cute, but that's a no no". Tyrian kills Dany to back John.

Why are people putting purely speculative guesses in spoilers?

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 BlaxicanX wrote:
A Baratheon is currently in power, Baratheons have been in power for 20 years, why realistically would the Realm not pick another Baratheon if the option was there?


What Baratheon is in power? Has anyone on the show ever referred to her as Cersei Baratheon, ever? Has she ever displayed the sigil of the crowned stag?

She holds the throne now by force of arms alone, which is in the end the only thing that really matters. But in terms of proper succession, it's either Jon or Dany. Jon's ancestry is so muddled and hard to prove that's going to be a tough sell - the Dance of Dragons happened with facts a lot less debatable than the current Jon vs Dany situation.

   
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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Her claim does not supercede his because the Targ line of succession has already been broken via right of conquest. Targs got thrown out, Baratheons got picked by gods and men (as far as the law is concerned) to rule and did rule for 20 years. Her claim isn't any more legitimate then some guy walking up and saying that a thousand years ago before the Targs ruled the Johnsons were kings and thus as a Johnson descendant he has a claim.

More importantly, everyone over the age of 40 despises and mistrusts Targs. A Baratheon is currently in power, Baratheons have been in power for 20 years, why realistically would the Realm not pick another Baratheon if the option was there?


Thats not true. It's why Robert was killing all the kids. Roberts rule is illegal as long as the Targaryen line continues to exist. The Baratheons are usurpers with no real claim and their claim only stands when the true heirs no longer exist.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

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Gendry is an illegitimate child, even if he is the only child of Robert. Legally, he cannot claim the Iron Throne unless a king/queen was to legitimize him, something Dany nor Cercie would likely do.

Jon might have a more legitimate claim to the Ironthrone than Danerys, but I don't think this would or should pose an issue, outside of the Producer's deciding to artificially make it one. 1) Jon wouldn't want it. 2) They're both kinda in love with each other and will definitely get hitched, which makes both having a claim irrelevant.

And its not like a, kinda sorta not-technically, incestuous relationship between two Targaryans is anything shocking. Danerys, when she was young, was expecting to marry Viscerys. Marrying her nephew would hardly be an issue for her.

The only way I see Gendry getting legitimized is if he swears to abandon all claim on the Ironthrone. In which case he refounds House Baratheon. Which I could definitely see happening. Gendry isn't going to want the throne, so no problem swearing off on it, and it would return some stability to have the Baratheons back.

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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Gendry is an illegitimate child, even if he is the only child of Robert. Legally, he cannot claim the Iron Throne unless a king/queen was to legitimize him, something Dany nor Cercie would likely do.

Jon might have a more legitimate claim to the Ironthrone than Danerys, but I don't think this would or should pose an issue, outside of the Producer's deciding to artificially make it one. 1) Jon wouldn't want it. 2) They're both kinda in love with each other and will definitely get hitched, which makes both having a claim irrelevant.

And its not like a, kinda sorta not-technically, incestuous relationship between two Targaryans is anything shocking. Danerys, when she was young, was expecting to marry Viscerys. Marrying her nephew would hardly be an issue for her.

The only way I see Gendry getting legitimized is if he swears to abandon all claim on the Ironthrone. In which case he refounds House Baratheon. Which I could definitely see happening. Gendry isn't going to want the throne, so no problem swearing off on it, and it would return some stability to have the Baratheons back.


Spoiler:
We're discussing all this because the writers seem to be at least toying with the idea that Dany is going to turn Mad Queen, given her reaction to Sansa and the Northerners. She shouldn't have any problem with a bastard with no real claim or with marrying a relative, given the context of the show's society and history, but if she drops the Mhysa routine and goes full Mother of Dragons, burning the son - bastard or not - of the man who slaughtered her whole family almost down to her child brother and her infant self isn't implausible, nor is the idea that she'll put Jon in a position where he has to choose between her and the family that raised him. It's not just Sam, Jon, and Bran that know the truth remember;Tyrion overheard things last season IIRC, and now Sansa and that Vale guy are doing the "whispery meetings in corners" thing with new arrivals. If Dany finds out about Jon, especially if it's not from Jon himself, and gets paranoid...

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Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.

The idea of Gendry being legitimized and refounding House Baratheon... that's a cool one.
   
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 Ouze wrote:
Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.

The idea of Gendry being legitimized and refounding House Baratheon... that's a cool one.


We are seeing a new challenge to Dany's reign.

See, before she's just been welcomed by the small folk, on account of relieving them from Slavery. But in The North? Welcome to Westerosi Politics. Your usual approach just ain't gonna work.

Can she adapt? Who knows.

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 Ouze wrote:
I'm also unhappy about how Stannis wound up.
What you need to now though Ouze is bring "Stannis the Mannis" up every time anyone mentions GoT, no matter the context, even when it is inappropriate (actually, specifically when it is inappropriate), and talk about how he was robbed, how he should be on the Iron Throne, and throw in something clever, like calling the show runners "Dumb & Dumber" or something like that. It's what all the kids are doing these days.

Sorry if I sound cynical, but I really like GoT and I've found that most GoT threads are either filled with book purists screeching over irrelevant details (or just going "It's sucked since they ran out of book stuff to write!"), or just people complaining about teleportation. They sucked the fun out of sharing the show with people.



   
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 Ouze wrote:
Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.

The idea of Gendry being legitimized and refounding House Baratheon... that's a cool one.


Funny enough i've always kind of felt that she had a hint of madness in her. That it would take certain circumstances for it to shine through. For her to succeed from this point onward would be too easy.

 
   
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 Ouze wrote:
Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.
It wouldn't be out of the picture. She always reacts angrily to anyone who challenges or even disagrees with her (thought that could be Emilia Clarke's lack of range... I'm not sure). She's never displayed the ability to be a good ruler and is 100% of the "I have a divine right to rule" methodology. She thinks she should be in charge because her father was in charge, not because she has the ability to do so.

It's only her many advisers that have held her back.

Her being angry at Jamie doesn't even make any sense. Barristan Selmy made it very clear that to Dany that the stories about her father were 100% true.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 08:40:30


   
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Not a bad start to the season

Good stuff included Dany having the best line - "Whatever they want" - although "I wanted elephants" was fun.
Nice to logistics mentioned - even if they are never again.
Pirate guy was fun.
Dragon flying good
Cersei choosing Bron to kill Jamie - WTF girl.

Only downside was Sam and Bran trying to break up the fledgling alliance before its really starts

As John said - it does not fething matter at this point which claim to the throne is most legit, the survivors can argue over it depending on what power they have left.

Vison boy and GRM in the show are doing the Night Kings work. Fething idiots.

She's never displayed the ability to be a good ruler and is 100% of the "I have a divine right to rule" methodology. She thinks she should be in charge because her father was in charge, not because she has the ability to do so.


Apart from when she has and became the adored ruler of thousands......

Divine rule - Thats what ALL the claimants think as thats the whole point of bloodines inlcuding Jon Snows (who looses every battle he fights.....and then someone wins it for him)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/16 13:15:32


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 Ouze wrote:
Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.

The idea of Gendry being legitimized and refounding House Baratheon... that's a cool one.


One factor could be how closely the show's ending stays true to GRRM's intended conclusion. In the books, Daenerys is a fairly petulant child and a slide into madness could be in play. Show Daenerys doing the same wouldn't quite feel right, but it'd hardly be the first bit of narrative whiplash that we've seen on the show. And I'm sure there'd be some cheers if Jon (Azor Ahai?) was to run Daenerys (Nissa Nissa?) through with Longclaw. Still, I don't expect it to happen.

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Spoiler:
I don't feel Sam and Bran are out to split the alliance, so much as representing reality biting.

It helps the show feel like the show. Where there are no right decisions, just series of bad ones, with the trick being to pick the least worse option.

Jurrn Snurr is correct. To stop The Army of the Dead, and avoid rendering everything else moot, The North needs allies. And those he's got represent a huge fighting force, numerious, experienced and competent. And it's not an ally actively trying to undermine or politick over the whole thing. Yes there may yet come a reckoning, but one problem at a time, yeah?

Sansa is also correct. The North will not readily forgive Jurrn Snurr for embracing the Targaryen. The North remembers, after all. That is very real, that is a problem. And one not necessarily easily overcome with clever words and promises.

Sam was also correct. He's he first to see Dany as a monster, burning prisoners alive. And that after all is exactly what her Dad did. What we as the viewer know is the why of Dany's decision. She will not set men in chains. A noble intent, to a degree. And as for accepting the Tarley's turning coat? Well, they've got form for that, abandoning Lady Olenna, and betraying their Bannermen to follow Cersei, possibly the most despise person in the Seven Kingdoms.

It's all tension for the plot, and has suitably strained things. That's far better than 'suddenly everyone gets along'.

Dany is facing an uphill struggle. But she can do it. Fight alongside The North. Justify her actions before them, rather than claiming 'I are kween, does wot want'. Be stateswomanly about it.

Jurrn Snurr? Who is going to believe Sam and Bran? Is he even interested in The Crown? I don't think so. He didn't even want to be King In The North. That may prove a non-issue. Swear Sam and Bran to secrecy, resolved. Mostly.

There's also the smol matter of The Night King not being at all far away. Will they have time to thrash things out before the siege begins? Better if they can, potentially breaking if it's still simmering.

All helps this season remain interest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 14:06:57


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Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.

Would Jon Snow care about sleeping with his Aunt? Will Dany care that Jon is her nephew? Even if they were to get together they won't have an heir.



 
   
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 Gael Knight wrote:
Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.

Would Jon Snow care about sleeping with his Aunt? Will Dany care that Jon is her nephew? Even if they were to get together they won't have an heir.



I assure you the chance of them not having a kid is zero.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
 Gael Knight wrote:
Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.

Would Jon Snow care about sleeping with his Aunt? Will Dany care that Jon is her nephew? Even if they were to get together they won't have an heir.



I assure you the chance of them not having a kid is zero.


Agreed - Incest is a "noble" tradition to keep bloodlines pure - I am assuming that their child will be mirrored by dragon eggs.

@ Mad Doc - You are correct about pretty much of all of that for dramatic tension and that real people do stupid things but that does not make those things less stupid


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 Gael Knight wrote:
Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.


Personally, my doubts have little to do with in-story believability. TV Daenerys is a highly popular character with a large following. The showrunners changed the character from the books to make her more likeable. 'Team Daenerys' will be unhappy with her making a heel turn down the home stretch. And (because spinoffs have already been announced) they have a TV franchise to think about.

If a heel turn is what GRRM has in mind and the showrunners feel obligated to follow it, then I guess that's what we'll get. But overall I suspect that the showrunners will do what's right for their enterprise, making Daenerys 'too big to fail' in that respect. A heroic death? Maybe. An ending that leaves her on the throne but with a broken heart? Sure. I think a truly happy ending is very unlikely, but I'd still give that better odds than her becoming the villain of the story.

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 gorgon wrote:
 Gael Knight wrote:
Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.


Personally, my doubts have little to do with in-story believability. TV Daenerys is a highly popular character with a large following. The showrunners changed the character from the books to make her more likeable. 'Team Daenerys' will be unhappy with her making a heel turn down the home stretch. And (because spinoffs have already been announced) they have a TV franchise to think about.

If a heel turn is what GRRM has in mind and the showrunners feel obligated to follow it, then I guess that's what we'll get. But overall I suspect that the showrunners will do what's right for their enterprise, making Daenerys 'too big to fail' in that respect. A heroic death? Maybe. An ending that leaves her on the throne but with a broken heart? Sure. I think a truly happy ending is very unlikely, but I'd still give that better odds than her becoming the villain of the story.


Well GRM messed about with her character epseically in his last two books where he turns into an empty headed love struck teen - up to that point she was similar to the show - if anything they have stayed mroe true to her essential character than the author - who was more interested in 300 minor characters and lond tedious road trips.

Dany is brutal and ruthless because thats the world she lives in and has survived.

Otherwise agree - heroic death or alone on the throne with growing enemies in the shadows would fit the tone....

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 Gael Knight wrote:
Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.

Would Jon Snow care about sleeping with his Aunt? Will Dany care that Jon is her nephew? Even if they were to get together they won't have an heir.



One thing we have seen is Dany’s relative naivety slowly fall away. Just like Sansa, she learns from her mistakes, and doesn’t really make the same ones twice.

Will she grasp the Westorosi mindset quickly enough to stave off a collapse of political allies? Who knows. It really could go either way.

But....

Spoiler:
I feel Jaime’s arrival at Winterfell may be the centre of things. None of the other parties, barring Tyrion, have any real reason to trust him. But if he carries word that Cersei has finally flipped, and he’s there for the common interest? Who knows what impact that might have.

There’s also the wisdom of Jurrn Snurr. He recruited Wildlings successfully enough for them to fight for him against the mutually loathed Boltons. He then didn’t abandon or punish the Karatarks or Umbers for the failings of a relative handful of men. Is all really forgiven there? Or are there still enough bad sentiments stirring to wreck a battle plan?

How will the deployment of forces go? How will that be received? Jurrn seems to have a certain gift for it, but will they heed his counsel at this time?

And no. None of this is idiot proof, which is why I’m so intrigued by the situation. It can all turn out well, if people are prepared to swallow pride for the time being. If one or more prove intractable, depending on who exactly they are, all bets are off. Perhaps the dawning horror of just what it is they’re up against will be enough to calm hearts. It could just as easily see it go completely the other way.

Got to say. My hats are off to the writers so far this season. Stupidly early doors I know, but to steer away from ‘happy flappy, Your My Best Mate I Fakkin Lav Ya’ is a solid move.


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Just pulling back for a minute, I didnt like the new intro. The old version really gave the impression of a mad monk messing about with balsa wood. This new one, he suddenly has a graphics heavy PC.

Anyone else miss the old version?

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I liked the new one. Very different and I feel it suits the tighter view of things, now we’re down to the wire.

But I get where you’re coming from

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Didn't get to watch till last night, but I like how it's setting things up. I kinda feel like the big fight will happen up north, fail miserably, retreat to kings landing, golden army turns the tide, cersi dies, dany takes the throne, john dies sacrificing himself and his dragon to bring down the night king.

I don't think Jamie will kill Cersi, he will probably die diving in front of a xbow bolt aimed at Tyrion. Mostly because I'd rather see Cersi get gobbled up by a dragon.

Or maybe the dragon can eat the mountain, barf him up cuz he's gross and undead, and then said barfed mountain bits will clock Cersi upside the head and knock her over the side of the wall where she plummets to her doom?

   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
I'm also unhappy about how Stannis wound up.
What you need to now though Ouze is bring "Stannis the Mannis" up every time anyone mentions GoT, no matter the context, even when it is inappropriate (actually, specifically when it is inappropriate), and talk about how he was robbed, how he should be on the Iron Throne, and throw in something clever, like calling the show runners "Dumb & Dumber" or something like that. It's what all the kids are doing these days.

Sorry if I sound cynical, but I really like GoT and I've found that most GoT threads are either filled with book purists screeching over irrelevant details (or just going "It's sucked since they ran out of book stuff to write!"), or just people complaining about teleportation. They sucked the fun out of sharing the show with people.




... what the feth

I have no idea who you are talking about, but it's not me. I thought Stannis was well played, and I really enjoyed the "fewer" references, but I'm not sure I've ever argued he should sit the Iron Throne, I'm unhappy that be burned Shireen, which was out of character - I don't think I brought him up much and certainly not compulsively, and I have said repeatedly I thought the showrunners were doing a better job than GRRM.

I literally have no goddamn idea who or what you are talking about, I sure never brought up teleportation, but I'm really annoyed for some reason you decided to use me as the proxy of all the GOT fans who annoy you (who actually don't agree with any of the things I actually think)

Here I am, the book purist, talking about how terrible a job I think the showrunners are doing:


 Ouze wrote:
Also, although I complained about how this was a weak episode, and it was... as Scooty said earlier even the weak episodes are the best thing on TV right now, and the high point of my week.


 Ouze wrote:
The show and the books started out very similar but they started to diverge markedly in the latter seasons. The show omitted major characters, it simplified multiple characters into single ones, and all the other streamlining that you'd expect when you're adapting a thousand pages of text into 10 hours. The thing is that I think the show has been delivering a better, cleaner narrative while the book narrative has gotten increasingly crushed under it's own weight.

IMO he's written himself into a corner and can't figure out how to get himself out of it, and he's waiting to see how the showrunners resolve it... and how well it's received, to finally resolve it on his own.

I'd like to rail about this approach but the truth is I myself did a project once that got totally out of hand and I was overwhelmed, so mostly I understand. It's a bad boat to be in.

I'm sure I'll buy and read this book, just like I read the terrific Dunk & Egg stuff, and that other background book he put out a while ago.


 Ouze wrote:
I'm good with that. The show is supposed to be an adaptation, not a transliteration*.

The truth is that I think the show will probably do a better job telling the story than the source books. I love them, but there are a lot of tangents in the books that are maybe unnecessary.


 Ouze wrote:
GRRM has somewhat distanced himself from the rape scene.

For myself, I trust the showrunners and give them the benefit of the doubt that the changes they made were necessary for their vision of how they want to tell the story; an adaptation rather than a 100% faithful re-enactment. Unlike many other (maybe even most other) book to film\TV interpretations, I feel they have done a good enough job up until this point that they have a reservoir of goodwill they may now draw from. I'm good with it for now.




Oh, here I am demanding thy explain travel times and bitching about teleportation:

 Ouze wrote:
I think this is fair. I'm one of the people who is happy to handwave away stuff that just isn't really important, like how ravens and dragons fly at the speed of plot, but I will also freely concede that the tempo of this season has increased to the point that the plot is starting to suffer a bit. I don't mean fixating on how fast so and so can fly, and why didn't we see so-and-so on a boat for 3 episodes, because who cares, I mean stuff like Benjen's death. I am OK with what they did but I feel like that could have been just a little bit longer. I feel like if they could have even gotten 1 or 2 more episodes this season it might have made a huge difference, and I wonder if season 8 is also going to be like this.


 Ouze wrote:
 yakface wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.

Agreed.

It's like people can't understand how you want/need the pace of a show like this to quicken as it nears its conclusion...



The whole reason I watch Game of Thrones is not for the dragons, not for the zombies, and not for the boobies, but to see people crossing the world in mundane ways at a glacial pace.



Here's where I express my unflinching support for Stannis on the Iron Throne:

 Ouze wrote:
No question for me. Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, The Unburnt, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lady of the Seven Kingdoms, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains, Queen of Meereen, Princess of Dragonstone.

Man, I bet getting business cards sucks for her.


Why? She has the most legitimate claim to the throne. The Baratheon line are simply continuing the usurper's reign, and no king since Roberts Rebellion has been legitimate. Danyerys is the sole surviving member of House Targaryen on the show and the rightful heir to the throne last held by Aerys II.

She will take what is hers with fire and blood.


 Ouze wrote:
So far as Jon Snow,

Spoiler:
The only thing that GRRM likes more then incest is pretending he killed a character off and then it turning out they weren't dead after all, for realz. Lets not even pretend he's going to kill off the enormously popular Jon Snow.


So far as the OP, I'd say Dany since she's the rightful ruler of Westeros. I'd love to see Tyrion as her Hand.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2019/04/16 21:39:11


 
   
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By that logic then Jon is the rightful heir, as his line takes precedence over Dany.


 
   
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I wrote that in 2014, when I was apparently still establishing the Stannis Fan Club. The R + L thing had not been confirmed yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 21:17:48


 
   
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 Gael Knight wrote:
By that logic then Jon is the rightful heir, as his line takes precedence over Dany.


Do the dead have legitmate claims

Lets hope Jon sticks to his who is king or queen does not matter in the fight against the dead.


"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
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Scotland

Stannis Fan Club representing in 2019.

Do we think the Valonqar is Euron? Strangles Cersei during sex perhaps.


 
   
 
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