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The gladiators things doesn't make any sense to me, though, considering how they are handling Angron in the Heresy series. He didn't really appreciate having to fight for other people's entertainment, so I don't see how his Legion would take it up so casually.

ph34r wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:thats why he IS nails. it takes being DANTE to survive that long.

So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?

no.... im suggesting that none of them have ACTUALLY lived that long. besides, even if, for some reason, against all current fluff, going into the Eye froze you in time but you could still move around and do stuff without ageing, all the neverending fighting and combat in the Eye would kill you eventually.

Semper wrote:
As for the discussion on the traitor marines age. These guys have fought for the entirety of their lives. They fought in the horus heresy, 13+ black crusades and continually in the EoT. Even if time does flow differently.. it's been 10,000 years and not all of that they've spent inside the eye. Either way these guys are not the equal of your normal b&b marine...no way and i'd extend the uberness of the four great champs' beyond them too.. i'm sure there will be many another chaos lord or even primarch who's as big and bad if not more.

and an ordinary space marine hasn't fought for the entirety of their lives? what makes a chaos marine superior to an ordinary marine in this regard? sace marines spend centuries training and fighting, just like chaos marines. sure it has been 10'000 years but do you have any idea how much the warp dilates time? a lot. enough that a trip taking a lightyear only takes a few hours in the warp.

besides, the occasional realspace raid would hardly have an effect on their ageing. how long did each crusade last? a few months or years? hardly enough to make a dent in the centuries of a space marine's life.

I would like to point out the special characters excluding huron are all over 10,000 years old. And before you point out god favors Cypher is over 10,000 years and sure the gods watch over him he is not a worshipper of them.

I do reckon most of the traitor legionaires are over 10,000 years old but it has to do with more then the warp. Space marine phsyology and the warp are good reasons but theres also some that might change themselves (Fabius im looking at you) and also the fact all the legions do know how to make and corrupt new marines maybe passing those geneseeds on might do something else aswell

i would love GW to come up with something other then "warp"

ph34r wrote:So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?

Isn't this the point where someone says "Time in the Warp doesn't always flow forwards?" or words to that effect.

Blackhoof wrote:
and an ordinary space marine hasn't fought for the entirety of their lives? what makes a chaos marine superior to an ordinary marine in this regard? sace marines spend centuries training and fighting, just like chaos marines. sure it has been 10'000 years but do you have any idea how much the warp dilates time? a lot. enough that a trip taking a lightyear only takes a few hours in the warp.
besides, the occasional realspace raid would hardly have an effect on their ageing. how long did each crusade last? a few months or years? hardly enough to make a dent in the centuries of a space marine's life.

Compared to how long all original legion members have been fighting? They might as well be wearing diapers. You fail to consider the time that they spent warring BEFORE the heresy, DURING the heresy and AFTER the heresy. Not all legions went to the eye you know. Even those that did didn't exactly spend their time goofing around.

For all intense and purposes, your average CSM = average space marine Veteran. For those that remember, before Mr. Thorpe decided to futt buck the hell out of CSMs, your ordinary CSMs could take veteran skills and the base CSM had the Ld of a SM sergeant. Only space marine veterans were allowed access to the same veteran skillset.
Not a huge difference in-game but very iconic and symbolic of the gap that existed between chaos marines and space marines.

So yes, there's quite a difference in combat superiority.

bhsman wrote:The gladiators things doesn't make any sense to me, though, considering how they are handling Angron in the Heresy series. He didn't really appreciate having to fight for other people's entertainment, so I don't see how his Legion would take it up so casually.

I agree with this post. The Chrono Gladiators are a zany concept IMO and shouldn’t be in the book (even if they loosely existed in the Inquisitor game prior to this).

Someone else made a post about Chaos being misinterpreted as “random” more often than not in the rules/fluff department and if this rumour is true, it could be a sign that this is set to continue in the next book. I’ve always interpreted CSM as bad ass heresy era veterans rather than the current “random moustache twirling villains” interpretation that seems apparent.

Slayer le boucher wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

This is why Dante is meant to be nails - 1,200+ years old, last time I checked.

No way that Dante is a millenia old..., even the Primarchs din't live past 600 years or so.

'How many died of old age, though?

But I just finishes greenstuffing mustaches on all my night lords

Somewhere in the HH books it states that Space Marines are immortal unless killed in combat. It's the degredation of the gene-seed that has been leading to marines possibly dying of old age (though how often does this happen?). Hence maybe Dante got a flawless geneseed and things just melded with him. Same for Grimnar who is no spring chicken agewise.

Hulksmash wrote:Somewhere in the HH books it states that Space Marines are immortal unless killed in combat. It's the degredation of the gene-seed that has been leading to marines possibly dying of old age (though how often does this happen?). Hence maybe Dante got a flawless geneseed and things just melded with him. Same for Grimnar who is no spring chicken agewise.

I remember some quotes to this effect, but it's really that they haven't had time to test, after all... I know there's a lot of comments in various HH books about the 'Older' Sapce Marines that were created on Earth and fought with the Emperor before the Primarchs were recovered.

If i remember right someone was stating no marine had died from old age. And that they would live forever if they weren't bred for war. I wanna say it was a conversation between a marine and a remembrancer (maybe in the first three sons of horus books). Granted I could be wrong since it's been a while

It was one of the first 2 books, with the photographer remembrancer...it may have been a conversation between her and Loken referencing Qruze.

If you want to know how long a space marine can live, read Nick Kyme's Salamander

SickSix wrote:If you want to know how long a APCs marine can live, read Nick Kyme's Salamander

Spoiler:

A heresy era Salamander is found alive, but is basically entombed in his power armor and would die if they attempted to move him.

Response spoiler below

@warboss

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?

Isn't this the point where someone says "Time in the Warp doesn't always flow forwards?" or words to that effect.

Well, I recall specifically in an ADB novel (Soul Hunter I think?)--he actually talks about their lack of equipment--and one mentions that can't believe they still have what they have. The answer is something along the lines of "Well, the Heresy was just yesterday to us..."

I think it's cool that GW can have a tagline for CSM "veterans of 10,000 years of war", only to have it subverted to the point where people always have to point out that time works differently in the warp so in reality only 5 minutes has passed for them since the Horus Heresy.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?

Isn't this the point where someone says "Time in the Warp doesn't always flow forwards?" or words to that effect.

Surely a Horus heresy veteran legionnaire would have been functional for at least 1000 of the last 10000 years? Or do they jus pop out of the eye of terror one day, check their space watches, and start wondering why the feth space bugs and robots are running around killing everything? Or are black crusades to them like a monthly thing while in the imperium they happen hundreds of years apart? It doesn't add up.

My chaos space marines are modeled to look like feti piloting their armor sort of like the baby from captain commando. Forever young are my veterans!

ph34r wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?

Isn't this the point where someone says "Time in the Warp doesn't always flow forwards?" or words to that effect.

Surely a Horus heresy veteran legionnaire would have been functional for at least 1000 of the last 10000 years? Or do they jus pop out of the eye of terror one day, check their space watches, and start wondering why the feth space bugs and robots are running around killing everything? Or are black crusades to them like a monthly thing while in the imperium they happen hundreds of years apart? It doesn't add up.

This problem, GW hasn't really put enough thought into this... Chaos Space Marines, are they 10,000 year veterans or are they relatively fresh from the Heresy? If they're veterans their stats should reflect this. If they're from the "past" than their weapons and equipment should reflect this. Even if you take a modest middle ground as you propose, they'd be a 1000 years old and better for it.

Without some passage of time, you can't justify Chaos having to resort to more basic technology or the necessitating the development of daemon engines. That aside, whether its Black Crusades or pirate style raids... Chaos is the aggressor fighting on their terms and in a realistic sense minimizing attrition and mitigating the lack of resources... according to GW Chaos (including the renegades) has as many marine as the Imperium, but unlike the Imperium they aren't surrounded on as many sides by constant attacks and invasions. They are kinda their own enemy, but with the way the codex is written there's no animosity, there are no uber veterans as those who have survived, and no ancient tech for the ones from the past. So it boils down to Chaos is described as a lot of things but it doesn't live up to any of them.

Raxor wrote:I think it's cool that GW can have a tagline for CSM "veterans of 10,000 years of war", only to have it subverted to the point where people always have to point out that time works differently in the warp so in reality only 5 minutes has passed for them since the Horus Heresy.

The eye of terror is a boring place... there's only one X-box between the 500,000 Chaos marines, and the Dark Mechanicum forgot to bring the STC blueprints for chairs... so everyone's standing around. Its actually a really big misunderstanding between Chaos and the Imperium... between Nurgle's gases, Slanneshi mind altering fumes, and Khornes 'roids they aren't out for a war they're just running out to grab some munchies. If there's a "war," its just because the Imperium tried to get out of paying 10,000 years worth of backed retirement benefits.

ph34r wrote:Surely a Horus heresy veteran legionnaire would have been functional for at least 1000 of the last 10000 years? Or do they jus pop out of the eye of terror one day, check their space watches, and start wondering why the feth space bugs and robots are running around killing everything? Or are black crusades to them like a monthly thing while in the imperium they happen hundreds of years apart? It doesn't add up.

I don't disagree with you. I'm sure that for some of them the 'Long War', as it's called, really has been that long. But I think it varies. There might be some crazed World Eater bands who, from their point of view, only just made it off Terra alive. Meanwhile, there's a large sect of Word Bearers who have been waiting 5,000 years to revenge!

I seem to recall in "Soul Hunter" a conversation like:

"For you the assault on Terra happened 10,000 years ago. But for this ship it has been mere decades."

I would suggest that your average CSM would be much stronger than a regular "thin blood" SM simply due to a degeneration of the geneseed over 10,000 years. I also seem to remember reading a few lines to that effect in a BL book. YMMV.

Consider the 1-10 scale that 40k uses. Average the individual skills throughout a unit.

Would we see any actual stat difference between an average Chaos Marine squad and a Codex Marine squad?

A +1 to many of the stats is a BIG DEAL. And the ramifications throughout the ruleset are just as big.

Chaos Marines already get a +1A in melee due to equipment.
Maybe this can be considered to be also due to their expertise.
(I am sure GW didn't plan it that way, but it can work)

As to age Bjorn is the oldest living loyalist marine not counting the 13th company.
Dante has held his position longer than any other chapter master.

[quote = "the dude who keeps arguing the same argument"]

Semper wrote:
As for the discussion on the traitor marines age. These guys have fought for the entirety of their lives. They fought in the horus heresy, 13+ black crusades and continually in the EoT. Even if time does flow differently.. it's been 10,000 years and not all of that they've spent inside the eye. Either way these guys are not the equal of your normal b&b marine...no way and i'd extend the uberness of the four great champs' beyond them too.. i'm sure there will be many another chaos lord or even primarch who's as big and bad if not more.

and an ordinary space marine hasn't fought for the entirety of their lives? what makes a chaos marine superior to an ordinary marine in this regard? sace marines spend centuries training and fighting, just like chaos marines. sure it has been 10'000 years but do you have any idea how much the warp dilates time? a lot. enough that a trip taking a lightyear only takes a few hours in the warp.

besides, the occasional realspace raid would hardly have an effect on their ageing. how long did each crusade last? a few months or years? hardly enough to make a dent in the centuries of a space marine's life.

Equal? An average hours heresy vet should by all logic be stronger than a loyalist marine vet, unless chaos marines spend 99% of their time doing nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Equal? An average hours heresy vet should by all logic be stronger than a loyalist marine vet, unless chaos marines spend 99% of their time doing nothing.

ph34r wrote:Equal? An average hours heresy vet should by all logic be stronger than a loyalist marine vet, unless chaos marines spend 99% of their time doing nothing.

Considering they don't have the same discipline that loyalist Marines do, for all we know the forces of Chaos spend most of their time on the Chaos couch eating Chaos Funyuns.

Chaos Marines are only how they are (+1 attack for bp/ccw, icons, for worse morale and no ATSKNF) for game balance purposes. They're different enough as is, and giving them blanket stat increases beyond a mark here and there would change the entire dynamic of an army, a dynamic that it has shared with loyalist Space Marines since Rogue Trader. I wouldn't want them to become more "elite" outside of specific builds. They're elite enough as is with cult troops and the price you can pay for marks, and if you made the base Marines better, you'd need to make the cult troops better, at which point the balance of the whole thing is thrown off.

Semper wrote:
How long did the gothic war take (20-100 years)? and the great crusade (2-300 years)? and the other numerous wars? we're already talking the best part of 1000 years for a huge part of the black legion and abaddon OUTSIDE the warp and in addition the likes of Abaddon and Ahriman (who's spent most of the 10,000 years wandering outside the warp) were space marines even before the emperor found the primarchs. So if they are.. no reason to think some, if not many of the other original traitor legions are equally as venerable.

In addition, the bit at the end of The Outcast Dead is relevant to this.

bhsman wrote:The gladiators things doesn't make any sense to me, though, considering how they are handling Angron in the Heresy series. He didn't really appreciate having to fight for other people's entertainment, so I don't see how his Legion would take it up so casually.

Angron was a massive hypocrite. For all that he claimed to hate the traditions of the gladiators, what was the first thing that he taught his legion? To 'cut the rope', a gladiator tradition. Then he introduced the lobotimisations that were used on gladiators as well. It definitely sounds like something he'd do to me.

Brother SRM wrote:

ph34r wrote:Equal? An average hours heresy vet should by all logic be stronger than a loyalist marine vet, unless chaos marines spend 99% of their time doing nothing.

Considering they don't have the same discipline that loyalist Marines do, for all we know the forces of Chaos spend most of their time on the Chaos couch eating Chaos Funyuns.

Chaos Marines are only how they are (+1 attack for bp/ccw, icons, for worse morale and no ATSKNF) for game balance purposes. They're different enough as is, and giving them blanket stat increases beyond a mark here and there would change the entire dynamic of an army, a dynamic that it has shared with loyalist Space Marines since Rogue Trader. I wouldn't want them to become more "elite" outside of specific builds. They're elite enough as is with cult troops and the price you can pay for marks, and if you made the base Marines better, you'd need to make the cult troops better, at which point the balance of the whole thing is thrown off.

By 'different enough' I assume you mean 'barely different at all'? With the loss of daemons, they've become a generic MEQ, especially since marks can be lost with the death of a single squad member. At the very least, they should have Preferred Enemy against Space Marines, considering that's what they spend the majority of their time in realspace fighting and they'd be trained as such regardless of their age. IMO there should be a normal CSM troops choice and a Veteran CSM choice for the 10000 year old ones.

As for the age and such, Black Crusades aren't the only time that CSMs leave the Eye. Raiding parties, especially those of the Emperor's Children, often leave to hunt for slaves and resources. The fact that they need those means that time is passing reasonably quickly for them, so I'd guess at an average age of 1'000 for them. The ones that left Terra a few years ago from their point of view are the ones that were in the Warp itself, which doesn't obey any of the rules of normal time at all.

What time the CSMs don't spend fightihg someone else is spent fighting each other, as they raid rivals for slaves and resources as well.

If the new codex somehow allows terminators to be taken as troops, I might finally start a chaos army..