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I always blame the unit.

While I feel that each and every unit has a role, the truth is that 40K is just inherently unbalanced. Some units are just much, much better at a particular role than others. That's why you see people flocking to these units. You can try to cook a turkey by campfire, but wouldn't it be better to just pop that sucker into the oven/microwave? You can ride your bicycle to work everyday, but wouldn't it be faster and easier to just hop onto a motorcycle or car?

Every codex has efficient (good) and non-efficient (bad) units. Sure you can try to make the inefficient units work, but why bother when there are just better options out there? Take for example, the hive guard versus the tyrannofex. If you are looking at AT, the t-fex can threaten AV14 and shoot from 48" away....but the hive guards will out-perform it almost every single game. Why? Because they are much, much cheaper, shoot much more reliably (and with more shots given a unit of 3 hive guards) and the majority of tanks out there are still AV10-13. That doesn't mean the t-fex is bad. It is still a monstrous creature with a 2+ save and he does have a niche (AV13-14). However, the hive guards are just more efficient in the role that both performs.

Another example, the pyrovore. It's main role is anti-horde as it is one of the very few units in the tyranid codex with template weapons. Some people have considered putting them (unit of 3) in a mycetic spore to drop and flame the enemy units. However, almost everything in the tyranid army is better at killing infrantry and more survivable than those pyrovores with the exception of termagants. However, termagants are more necessary because they are scoring units and the best screening units for the bug army. Also, when buffed up by tervigons, termagants can perform just as well as pyrovores.

Now not every unit in every codex has a specific role. Some units are fairly unique - Marbo, Callidus, Doom of Ma'lantai, Deathleper, etc. It's true that sometimes players don't really know how to best use these units. Once you figure out how these units work best, you can usually get some mileage out of them. In the same sense, they can be very good units because your opponents may not know how to play against them either. However, these units are usually exceptions to the norm and they can be very good because they are actually force-multiplier units. But in most cases, people just don't use certain units because there are just better units around. Why try to get drunk on beer when whiskey would get you there much faster (if your goal is trying to get drunk the fastest)?

Regardless of the OP's position, he's stated multiple times he doesn't know the rules. Therefore, any ideas he has on the subject are as valid as any ideas he has on quantum theory. His argument cannot be grounded in the rules that govern the rest of our realities.

There's plenty of 'useless' units.
HOWEVER, They CAN be made good. It just basically never worth the effort, because there's invaribly something else that will do the job better, without dedicating resource to making a terrible or subpar unit into something reasonably killy.

Take Mandrakes for example, they're terrible, too many points for what they do, no options to speak of and they're a shooty unit that needs to kill something in assault before they can fire - however, you CAN make them reasonable, but you need to put a lot of effort into it.
You need to either walk them up the field with a Haemy, or rush a Haem up the field to join them so they can do something turn 1.
Alternatively you need to dedicate a portion of your army to killing a unit just enough to let your Mandrakes kill a unit using their basic Str4 CCW, without getting wrecked due to being T3 with a 5+* save, and you might get a decent run out of them turn 2-3 onwards.

Alternatively just take any other DE Elites option which can stand on its own and is invaribly cheaper!

I honestly can't tell If your joking or serious , but I'm going to assume the former


With all that AT you listed , Vets require a transport and can't take orders while in a transport , and in order to get that AT you want you have to be 6' away from enemy armour . With heavy weapons squads 5+ save and insta killed by st 6 is crap. , lascannons are hard presses to pen '. 14 front armour . Now for Vendettas yes they are underpriced , but there are things that everyone hates and thinks is. OP. Grey knight Dakka dreds , Necron. Air Force , demon flamer spams ,

Simple develop better tactics

Strongly disagree. With the changing of the game you often see shifts that invalidate a unit almost entirely. What may have been balanced in one edition or in a meta defined by one codex may be UP or worthless in another.

Take the eldar codex. Guardians are worthless. DA are just better with the removal of 4+ cover saves. Warp spiders are just better than Hawks, Harlequins are just better than banshees, and the pheonix lords are almost universally useless in competitive settings (Maugan ra and Fuegan have minor uses, but the rest....).

Tyranids were taken from one of the lowest rungs and nerfed into dead last with 6th.

GK are just all around better than DA.

ect.

Codexes get outdated with power creep. More and more optimal units are needed to deal with shifting meta changes. Simply a fact of the game

Can a unit be more useful than expected? This is a dice game, so yes. Poor opponent target priority can yield unexpected results. I had a 5 man warrior squad with prime run through over 800 points of terminators and marines before going down. However, that was an isolated incident and more of a mistake on the opponent's part than a success of the unit.

Saying "all units are good" is like saying "everything tastes good". Im sure some people like liver and onion and could argue for it, but i dont think you can find many who like the taste of dirt, smelling salts, or oil. There are dirt bad units in this game.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

You can use everything in a competitive environment.

You can use FO, monoliths and the Pyrovore in a compeitive environment.

You will utterly lose against actual competitive lists...yet you *can* field them.

True.

Well, he is correct though.

No, his point was that you can make those units competitive.

Put my quotes in the right order and you may notice the subtle humor

I killed a vendetta with a thrown haywire grenade once.

Clearly they are underpowered.

I don't know if you're serious, trolling or socketpuppeting :/

 Niiai wrote:
I cannot take any discusion serius when they say the vendetta is not undercosted. It's like discusing with someone who is into conspiracy theories but has no source critesism. Anything you say will not matter because the other person is not rational.

AV12
Transport capasety
43, points for a lascannon with 75% chanche to hit and rarly get a coversave because of the flyer base.
They are not restricted by unit capasety because you can take 9 of them. If you play at 2000 points you can take 18 of them.

I se no reason not to take 6 of them in 3x2 squadrons for 780 points. Unless your oponent is footslogging it is autowinn.

I wouldn't want to run that combination for three reasons:

1. It makes you a complete waac douche
2. It limits your army tactically, being dependent on reserve flyers will end badly quite often
3. That costs over $500 to build, no thanks.

 Stormrider wrote:
1. It makes you a complete waac douche

So it's an extremely effective build then?

2. It limits your army tactically, being dependent on reserve flyers will end badly quite often

On average you'll get 4 of the 6 in on turn 2. That's not too bad.

3. That costs over $500 to build, no thanks.

Has no bearing on effectiveness of the build. 18 Pyrovores costs that much and is still essentially useless. (and amusingly costs more than 6 Vendettas in points as well)

 Lokas wrote:
I killed a vendetta with a thrown haywire grenade once.

Clearly they are underpowered.

6
6
6

 Stormrider wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I cannot take any discusion serius when they say the vendetta is not undercosted. It's like discusing with someone who is into conspiracy theories but has no source critesism. Anything you say will not matter because the other person is not rational.

AV12
Transport capasety
43, points for a lascannon with 75% chanche to hit and rarly get a coversave because of the flyer base.
They are not restricted by unit capasety because you can take 9 of them. If you play at 2000 points you can take 18 of them.

I se no reason not to take 6 of them in 3x2 squadrons for 780 points. Unless your oponent is footslogging it is autowinn.

I wouldn't want to run that combination for three reasons:

1. It makes you a complete waac douche
2. It limits your army tactically, being dependent on reserve flyers will end badly quite often
3. That costs over $500 to build, no thanks.

I would not run such a build but not because it is WAAC. It actually isn't. What it is is an unbalanced army. Face the right opponent and you will crush him. Face the wrong army and you will get crushed. I prefer a much more balanced army instead.

First time I outright agree with peregrine.

The vendetta is horribly underpriced-not only because it packs good guns, good mobility AND good defense for a low cost, ut because it is a flier, and flier status changes alot.

Of the top of my head, the following armies have not a single flyer, nor a single skyfire unit: Tau, Orks, Eldar, Sisters, DA, BT and SW.
Thoes are 7 armies (out of 16) that got NOTHING that can realistically deal with multiple fliers even if they want to gear their entire army list for it, plus they got no option to use such units themselves (outside of allying with others or using forgeworld, if you take allies just for power reasons you might as well switch codex and FW is not allowed everywhere.)

Now, moving toward the armies that DO have a filer/skyfire.
How many, have exacly 1 flier/skyfire?
Almost all of them. so you take 1 specific unit-or you are screwed if the enemy masses filers.

"take fortifications then"? so you are forced to have a static, defensive unit, and you only have 1-against some of the most mobile units in the game, who at times out-range you? not only is this far from foolproof-it again forces you to play differently then you would have wanted to.

Give it an extra year, when we have a ~3 new codecies, and at least 1 more flier wave, and fliers wont be as strong-as there will be many more answers to them around, but as the situation is now-its just too good to not to spam fliers, just because it is untouchable in about a third of your games, and still a great unit in any game where the opponent actually has answers.

The only situation where flyier spam is bad, is if you face hydra spam. but who on earth will run a list designed to beat one spesific unit type, and do worthless against anything else?

Hydras aren't useless against DE, Eldar, Tau, any other list with a bunch of skimmers.

DE loves hydras like a blue whale loves a fall from orbit next to a tulip pot.

Forgot hydras work on skimmers too there, but its still only useful against fliers, and 4 armies (necrons, tau, DE and eldar, these are the only to have proper skimmer access)-so it will not be truly spammed.

 Exergy wrote:

 Lokas wrote:
I killed a vendetta with a thrown haywire grenade once.

Clearly they are underpowered.

6
6
6

I had not thought of it that way.

New conclusion:

Clearly, I am satan.

Ok... Am I the only one who noticed that when the OP tried to explain how a Techpriest could be useful, he just threw it in a Vendetta?

Why has nobody brought this up?!

This post was amazing and I think you for it!

 jy2 wrote:

I always blame the unit.

I am not saying take the bad unit and make it work I am saying take the average unit or the units that might be overlooked and see if it has potential.

 jy2 wrote:
While I feel that each and every unit has a role, the truth is that 40K is just inherently unbalanced. Some units are just much, much better at a particular role than others. That's why you see people flocking to these units. You can try to cook a turkey by campfire, but wouldn't it be better to just pop that sucker into the oven/microwave? You can ride your bicycle to work everyday, but wouldn't it be faster and easier to just hop onto a motorcycle or car?

Nicely said.

 jy2 wrote:
Every codex has efficient (good) and non-efficient (bad) units. Sure you can try to make the inefficient units work, but why bother when there are just better options out there? Take for example, the hive guard versus the tyrannofex. If you are looking at AT, the t-fex can threaten AV14 and shoot from 48" away....but the hive guards will out-perform it almost every single game. Why? Because they are much, much cheaper, shoot much more reliably (and with more shots given a unit of 3 hive guards) and the majority of tanks out there are still AV10-13. That doesn't mean the t-fex is bad. It is still a monstrous creature with a 2+ save and he does have a niche (AV13-14). However, the hive guards are just more efficient in the role that both performs.

I agree with you completely, because you are comparing tyranid units with tyranid units, your not comparing a tyranid anti-tank unit with an Ig anti-tank unit and coming to the conclusion that the tyranid unit is bad. That type of analysis is flawed! You analyze the units that were in your codex and selected the more efficient and better choice. If you were to take the t-fex and it sucks in the game do you blame the t-fex or yourself for choosing it over the hive guard?

 jy2 wrote:
Another example, the pyrovore. It's main role is anti-horde as it is one of the very few units in the tyranid codex with template weapons. Some people have considered putting them (unit of 3) in a mycetic spore to drop and flame the enemy units. However, almost everything in the tyranid army is better at killing infrantry and more survivable than those pyrovores with the exception of termagants. However, termagants are more necessary because they are scoring units and the best screening units for the bug army. Also, when buffed up by tervigons, termagants can perform just as well as pyrovores.

Excellent point template weapons are at a premium perhaps we should bring the unit you mention earlier back into the equation! The tyranofex with acid spray is the cost of a land raider and you just told us why. You can have the tyranofex with its str 6 ap 4 torrent handling horde duties give it cluster spines and it has two templates not amazing, but with a 2+ save giving it immunity against missile launchers it can be effective if used correctly. How did I come to this conclusion after looking at the facts that jy2 presented to me and thinking outside the box.

 jy2 wrote:
Now not every unit in every codex has a specific role. Some units are fairly unique - Marbo, Callidus, Doom of Ma'lantai, Deathleper, etc. It's true that sometimes players don't really know how to best use these units. Once you figure out how these units work best, you can usually get some mileage out of them. In the same sense, they can be very good units because your opponents may not know how to play against them either.

BINGO! I place high in tournaments because opponents immediately disregard units they wouldnt use. I came in 5th using a simple combo, I put zahn in a nighscythe it moved flat out up to 36 in 5th edition pratically anywhere I wanted on the first turn (with stealth giving it a 3+ sv), I used obyron a unit of lychguard (4+ inv followed by 4+ reanimation protocol) with one re-roll cryptek, necron lord with orb and anrakyr the traveler and that unit got in your face turn one. It simply caught everyone off guard and when you get hit with str 6 power weapons the next turn due to furious charge I was decimating people. Simply thinking outside the box!

 jy2 wrote:
However, these units are usually exceptions to the norm and they can be very good because they are actually force-multiplier units. But in most cases, people just don't use certain units because there are just better units around. Why try to get drunk on beer when whiskey would get you there much faster (if your goal is trying to get drunk the fastest)?

I love to get typsy first!

I just love finding use for units and using them and I wanted to challenge people to try to understand codexes better.

SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: This thread is not about the cost of the vendetta it was used as an example!

 Niiai wrote:
DE loves hydras like a blue whale loves a fall from orbit next to a tulip pot.

Some may question your right to drop whales from orbit. Those who understand know that you have no right to let them swim. EXTERMINATUS WHALUS

 CKO wrote:
Would you rather me do something like this?

I am right because I go to Grand tournaments and place in the top 10 every time

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/418653.page

yeah my name is chad knight i came in 5th

Can't help but notice that you scored the lowest of all those players for sportsmanship and you were the first to resort to name-calling and insulting other users intelligence in this thread.

MarsNZ wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Would you rather me do something like this?

I am right because I go to Grand tournaments and place in the top 10 every time

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/418653.page

yeah my name is chad knight i came in 5th

Can't help but notice that you scored the lowest of all those players for sportsmanship and you were the first to resort to name-calling and insulting other users intelligence in this thread.

Yes, I am glad that you notice this I need to work on my sporstsmanship scores if I ever want to win but I have one major thing going against me when it comes to sportsmanship if you saw me you would know immediately what it is. Who did I resort to name calling with and insulting others intelligence I will apologize immediately to them, I did it unknowingly I was simply giving my opinion I would never intentionally do that to someone. I admit I did Peregrine wrong but look at his post and how they simply insulted me, I should have been patient I apologize.

 CKO wrote:
I am not saying take the bad unit and make it work I am saying take the average unit or the units that might be overlooked and see if it has potential.

That might have been a good policy back in 1990. Now that we have the internet and dozens of forums/blogs/etc within a week of a new codex being released it's been analyzed in detail and all of the good and bad units have been identified. Now which is more likely: that all of these people, who are all trying very hard to maximize their chances of winning, have missed something and the "overlooked" unit is really a good one, or that you're just wrong and the overlooked unit is overlooked because it's garbage?

I think that is where the dicotomy problem is coming from. It is either the best or garbage. people cant see the sexy shades of grey inbetween when it is broken down like that.

I don't think that's true. There's plenty of tactics threads where people talk about a variety of units as being "ok but not great" or "worth it's points".

So there is definitely shades of grey - it's just that people like the OP want to pretend that obviously bad units should be used in competitive lists too.

Niiai wrote:DE loves hydras like a blue whale loves a fall from orbit next to a tulip pot.

I don't understand you Norwegians at all.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Niiai wrote:DE loves hydras like a blue whale loves a fall from orbit next to a tulip pot.

I don't understand you Norwegians at all.

Sounds like someone doesn't understand the reference.

 Doomhunter wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

Niiai wrote:DE loves hydras like a blue whale loves a fall from orbit next to a tulip pot.

I don't understand you Norwegians at all.

Sounds like someone doesn't understand the reference.

Was that Hitchhikers?

Yup.