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 Troike wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ideally, this should be Codex: Sisters of Battle, with Inquisition units mentioned nowhere, because seriously, we are Ecclesiarchy troops.

I agree with this. Let the Inquisition stay with the GKs. Ally Inquisition people or Stormtroopers in if you really want them, but keep the codex purely SoB/Ecclesiarchy. We need all the spotlight we can get, dammit.

Actually, I wouldn't even include the Ecclesiarchy that much. The Sisters should be Sisters in the same vein as how the GKs are GKs. One or two Ecclesiarch units are OK (just like how there are only 4-5 Inquisition units in the GK dex), but the Sisters of Battle codex should be about the Sisters.

Also, on this note, IMHO the fluff can use some work. Less "nuns with guns" (it is kinda' old and boring) and more "militaristic sisterhood" please. They should focus on the "Daughters of the Emperor" aspect of the SoB. Making them behave as if they were the real daughters of the Emprah would be cool.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think there needs to be a thing were we treat armies with a Ordos Hereticus Inqusitor as Battle Brothers though, as that would be very fluffy.

That sounds cool, sure. As long as they don't take up more room than a few mentions in the text.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Actually, I wouldn't even include the Ecclesiarchy that much. The Sisters should be Sisters in the same vein as how the GKs are GKs. One or two Ecclesiarch units are OK (just like how there are only 4-5 Inquisition units in the GK dex), but the Sisters of Battle codex should be about the Sisters.

Oh course. That's basically how things are now anyway. I only included the Ecclesiarchy in that becuase they do have some units and fluff in the codex.

Though I will say, they would be an excellent source of a second troop choice: zealot mobs.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Also, on this note, IMHO the fluff can use some work. Less "nuns with guns" (it is kinda' old and boring) and more "militaristic sisterhood" please. They should focus on the "Daughters of the Emperor" aspect of the SoB.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. They already are a militaristic Sisterhood, in a sense. And their extreme devotion to big E makes focusing more on the "Daughters of the Emperor" thing kinda redundant. They're already extremely close to Him.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Making them behave as if they were the real daughters of the Emprah would be cool.

I'm pretty sure that that would be heresy.

Ralis wrote:I think instead of bikes, they should have something closer to ATV/Quads.

I know it's Forge World and Black Library, but damn, I've grown to like the Sororitas-issue Venator scout cars in "Hammer & Anvil"...

Ralis wrote:Also, at there core isn't the sisters of battle the military forces of the Ecclesiarchy?

They are. Just like the Imperial Guard is the military forces of the Departmento Munitorum, and you don't see Administratum clerks clugging up the Codex.

Don't get me wrong. The Ecclesiarchy is the Church Militant. It's a Warrior Religion that teaches the values of strength and sacrifice as ways to resist the predations of Mankind's enemies. But at the same time all those Cardinals and Preachers aren't a normal sight next to Battle Sisters when the latter deploy to do battle. Confessors are a normal and integrated part of a Guard regiment, but not of a Sororitas convent. The only times you should see clerics next to Sisters is as part of a bodyguard job or during an all-out War of Faith, and even in the latter, the Preachers are bound to say closer to their own Frateris Militia sheep, letting the Sisters do their thing.

The clergy doesn't land on daemon worlds or Ork-infested battlefields to recover lost relics. The clergy doesn't rush to assist embattled Astartes. The clergy doesn't drop-pod into a rogue Space Marine Chapter's HQ. And the clergy doesn't lead purges against its own Cardinals. All of this is entrusted to the Sisters of Battle, specifically because they are the Ecclesiarchy's military, the priesthood entrusting them with a task and then leaning back to let the experts do their job. The Codex even states how Church officials bow to a Canoness'es experience in any military matters.

I think the current Codex falls into a sort of "uncanny valley" where it has too much Ecclesiarchy to let the Sisters appear like its own organisation, but simultaneously not enough Ecclesiarchy to field those priests without Sisters (to represent, say, a local militia warband). They are missing the Zealots, which I think should be brought back. The clerics have no reason to be in the Codex without the people they'd actually lead in a conflict.

From a wishlist POV there are a few things I'd like to see in a SoB list.

Celestions being able to swap their bolters for a BP/CCW for free. And then being able to swap for two choices from the special/heavy/melee weapon lists

Mob troop choice. You really need another option besides the BSS, and this seems to be the obvious choice. I could also see a novice squad in carapace armor, but that's very marine-like. I'd rather see the local rabble whipped up into a frenzy. Which is more Chaos marine like with their cultists, but I find the dark mirror appealing.

A new tank. The holy trinity of weapons can be found on the predator chassis (which is basically an exorcist). HB/HF sponsons, flamestorm cannon on the turret, or the FW melta option. Slap some fluer de lies on it and start burning heretics.

Would be nice to get the move and shoot rule back for the immolator.

Judging from recent codexes, relics will return. Probably one armor, two swords, one gun, and a 2-3 "extras"

Speaking of mobs...I know exactly what models could be repurposed for the army:



As for a ranged attack, a BS 2, 12", S3, Assault 2 should be decent. What are they using? Stones, rocks, bits of masonry...whatever is handy to use on the enemy.

 Troike wrote:

I'm not sure what you're getting at. They already are a militaristic Sisterhood, in a sense. And their extreme devotion to big E makes focusing more on the "Daughters of the Emperor" thing kinda redundant. They're already extremely close to Him.

I was thinking more alongside the conceptions of the Valkyres. They were the daughters of Odin and the harbingers of his will. The Sisters could be something similar: a big all-female family that is only concerned with doing the Emperor's bidding and answering only to the Big E.

Nevelon wrote:A new tank. The holy trinity of weapons can be found on the predator chassis (which is basically an exorcist). HB/HF sponsons, flamestorm cannon on the turret, or the FW melta option. Slap some fluer de lies on it and start burning heretics.

Hmmm ... thinking about it, I could see that. It's a nice mental image.

Perhaps even have a sort of "heavy bolter + normal flamer" combi-weapon in the sponsons - so that you can equip both, but you can only fire one type per turn.

AtoMaki wrote:I was thinking more alongside the conceptions of the Valkyres. They were the daughters of Odin and the harbingers of his will. The Sisters could be something similar: a big all-female family that is only concerned with doing the Emperor's bidding and answering only to the Big E.

Wouldn't that move them closer to the SM again? The "crazy nun" aspect is one of the details that set them apart - and the reason for why they are able to resist corruption so well, or push themselves far enough to perform Acts of Faith.

 Lynata wrote:

Ralis wrote:I think instead of bikes, they should have something closer to ATV/Quads.

I know it's Forge World and Black Library, but damn, I've grown to like the Sororitas-issue Venator scout cars in "Hammer & Anvil"...

That's were I got the idea.

I really would like to see the Sisters get their own unique Flier, However I would be happy if they got either the Stormraven or Valkyrie.

Maybe something with the same stat line as the DA Nephilum, but with incindiary bombs, and avenger mega bolter

 Lynata wrote:
Wouldn't that move them closer to the SM again? The "crazy nun" aspect is one of the details that set them apart - and the reason for why they are able to resist corruption so well, or push themselves far enough to perform Acts of Faith.

It would definitely push them away from the "crazy monks" . And their bond with the Emperor through their "kinship" would make a much better explanation for their immunity to corruption and their superhuman performances. It would actually place them somewhere around the level of the Grey Knights (where they should be IMHO).

Except the GK are all witches. The reason the SOB are nigh-immune to corruption is through faith. No magic powers, no super-science gene-therapy, no bionic implants. Faith in the God-Emperor and a strong personal willpower.

Plus, don't you already have a kinship of the Emperor with the GK? I thought they used his genes for their creation, thus explaining their psychic potential ... though it's been a long time since I last read their fluff.

 Psienesis wrote:
Except the GK are all witches. The reason the SOB are nigh-immune to corruption is through faith. No magic powers, no super-science gene-therapy, no bionic implants. Faith in the God-Emperor and a strong personal willpower.

Actually, according to the GK codex, the main reasons why the GKs are uber-resistant are their rigorous training and mental fortitude. Everything else is either just a tool to wield or confers an advantage in areas other than purity. The Sisters are in the same boat, only that they have less toys to play with and they call their psychic powers Acts of Faith .

Agreed. [headcanon] AOF and Deny the Witch bonuses are just manifestations of a collective psychic gestalt that's naturally immune to the ill effects of the Warp, which makes Sisters the closest thing to the stable psychic race that the Emperor wanted humanity to evolve into.[/headcannon]

 SisterSydney wrote:
Agreed. [headcanon] AOF and Deny the Witch bonuses are just manifestations of a collective psychic gestalt that's naturally immune to the ill effects of the Warp, which makes Sisters the closest thing to the stable psychic race that the Emperor wanted humanity to evolve into.[/headcannon]

Headcannon?:

Meh, I prefer my Sisters remaining anti-psykers and would prefer if the 3E Shield of Faith with its undiscriminating negation would return... Pure willpower is so much more badass than Space Magic.

Haven't read through the whole topic so hit me it it was already discussed. But what about Sororita Silentum?
The Silent Sisterhood seemingly vanished from the background after the horus heresy. Why not bring those back into the SoB? An elite unit of all blanks - not only imune to psykers but also projecting a bubble that stops the use of psionic powers as well as negating psy energies that are already in effect?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Except the GK are all witches. The reason the SOB are nigh-immune to corruption is through faith. No magic powers, no super-science gene-therapy, no bionic implants. Faith in the God-Emperor and a strong personal willpower.

Actually, according to the GK codex, the main reasons why the GKs are uber-resistant are their rigorous training and mental fortitude. Everything else is either just a tool to wield or confers an advantage in areas other than purity. The Sisters are in the same boat, only that they have less toys to play with and they call their psychic powers Acts of Faith .

Acts of Faith are not psychic powers, and are not countered by anti-psychic means.

 Psienesis wrote:

Acts of Faith are not psychic powers, and are not countered by anti-psychic means.

They are effectively Blessings. They need Warp Charge points (Faith Points), a successful Psychic Test (Act of Faith test) and you can't DtW them, just like Blessings. The only lucky thing is that they aren't called and treated like Psychic Powers, so Rune Priests can't mess them up for good and the Warp Storm table can't replace your Sisters with Heralds .

 AtoMaki wrote:
They are effectively Blessings. They need Warp Charge points (Faith Points), a successful Psychic Test (Act of Faith test) and you can't DtW them, just like Blessings. The only lucky thing is that they aren't called and treated like Psychic Powers, so Rune Priests can't mess them up for good and the Warp Storm table can't replace your Sisters with Heralds .

The studio fluff has been fairly clear in saying that they're not a psychic phenomenon. To quote Lynata from earlier in this topic:

 Lynata wrote:
"For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled."
- 3E C:WH

"Whilst combat drills and studies of tactics can hone the body, only prayer can bolster the spirit, and all three are required to defeat the Imperium's foes. The combination of combat doctrine and prayer is most evident on the battlefield where Battle Sisters loudly proclaim their faith in hymn and verse as they march to war, calling upon the Emperor to aid them in the fight against their enemies. The perfervid, unquestioning nature of this faith is a potent weapon, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Adepta Sororitas to unprecedented feats of prowess."
- 5E C:SoB

And in 3E, the Shield of Faith actually passively negated psychic powers - even benign ones - as the Sisters' willpower and conviction rejected the corrupting taint creeping forth from the Immaterium. I think it is this that makes them so resistant against corruption, which at times does not only come in issues of morale, but also supernatural mind control or warpspawned sickness and mutation.

There's a number of non-GW sources going against this principle, but I actually like GW's version way more, as it lets them appear even more badass rather than reducing them to Space Wizards. Magic powers? Nope, they're just so goddamn stubborn they refuse to drop dead.

And there's also this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071026021921/http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/sororitas.html
From GW's game Inquisitor, which specifically says that Acts of Faith are not counted as psychic powers.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Actually, according to the GK codex, the main reasons why the GKs are uber-resistant are their rigorous training and mental fortitude.

Not exactly. From what I've heard, the codex implies that a lot of their immunity comes from their willingness to carry out rituals and such. Just look at the Bloodtide, one faction there resisted through sheer willpower, one faction needed to use blood magic to resist.

The GK, in keeping with their whole anti-Daemon thing, are practitioners of all kinds of sorceries, keepers of various librams and grimoires of fell magics and ancient rites, and all those sorts of things.

To me, it's the most interesting aspect of the Grey Knights, that they use weapons that would damn a lesser man to even touch as part of their arsenal against the Daemonic.

 Troike wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Actually, according to the GK codex, the main reasons why the GKs are uber-resistant are their rigorous training and mental fortitude.

Not exactly. From what I've heard, the codex implies that a lot of their immunity comes from their willingness to carry out rituals and such. Just look at the Bloodtide, one faction there resisted through sheer willpower, one faction needed to use blood magic to resist.

Oh, the Bloodtide where the GKs killed the Sisters to merge with their "purity" to be immune against the corruption? reminds me the old Chaos Sorcerer fluff where they sacrificed their thrall wizards to enhance their psychic powers .

And no, Grey Knights don't use rituals. All their prowess is the result of their training and extraordinary willpower. Even their psychic powers are fueled by their willpower. Their codex is pretty clear about this. Really, the Sisters are actually quite similar to GKs even in their current incarnation. They play in a lower league, have less bling and much more religion but pretty much that's all.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Oh, the Bloodtide where the GKs killed the Sisters to merge with their "purity" to be immune against the corruption?

Not exactly how it's described. It says that the blood of the Sisters is used to create a talisman of purity by mixing it with "blessed oils", not that it "merges" with the purity of the Knights. So it was the talisman itself that protected them, doesn't say anything about their own purity/fortitude.

On a related note, it specifically says that they "Needing a talisman of purity to protect agains the Bloodtide's taint" (emphasis mine), which seems to imply that without the blood, they would have been tainted. Didn't notice that before.

 AtoMaki wrote:
And no, Grey Knights don't use rituals.

Then what would you call the Bloodtide?

btldoomhammer wrote:Haven't read through the whole topic so hit me it it was already discussed. But what about Sororita Silentum?
The Silent Sisterhood seemingly vanished from the background after the horus heresy. Why not bring those back into the SoB?

The Sisters of Silence are an invention of the freelance novel authors working on the Horus Heresy series. So far, the core GW studio has to endorse their existence at all, even as far as the Horus Heresy is concerned.
There's also the little detail that Blanks, going by GW's own material, are supposed to be incredibly rare. The few that survive long enough to be found out are handed to the Officio Assassinorum to be trained as Culexus, or end up in some Inquisitor's retinue. If they are not executed outright, that is.

"The mark that Black bears is that of the psychic null known to Imperial scolars as a Pariah, an affliction that affects only a handful of children across the whole galaxy in each generation."
- http://web.archive.org/web/20080316022255/http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/dorian.html

The idea of a whole army of Blanks ... further restricted by gender and military qualifications ... meh.
I know the SoS have their fans, and the following will probably not endear me to them, but to me the Sisters of Silence are a cheap SoB-knockoff and yet another example for how the novels like to dismiss what is printed in studio fluff.

Just give the SoB their old Shield of Faith back ... or at least Adamantium Will!

Troike wrote:And there's also this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071026021921/http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/sororitas.html
From GW's game Inquisitor, which specifically says that Acts of Faith are not counted as psychic powers.

And, more importantly, that a Sororitas may never have any psychic powers.
I'm guessing now, but I think it's safe to say that any orphan who ends up in the Schola will be extensively checked for genetic purity. Psyker gene? Just step right into the Black Ship here.

Of course, there's no such thing as a 100% consistent canon in 40k, and I think the material is intentionally vague on a lot of topics just so we can pick what we like most. But I grew up with what I read in the codices, and to me it just makes them look even stronger for it.

Anyway back to the deiscussion about sisters wishlisting instead of some silly wardism...

(my fandex is better than yours neener neener neener )

 Melissia wrote:
Anyway back to the deiscussion about sisters wishlisting instead of some silly wardism...

I wouldn't mind Ward wiritng it, actually. He wrote their fluff properly in the 5e 'dex (Praxedes aside) and he's known for making competetive armies.

Kelly could also be a good choice. He's expressed interest in writing them, which is always a good sign, and he codexes generally seem to be okay.

A psychic test is a leadership test, a Faith test is a flat D6 roll. Not the same thing at all.

Besides, Blessings have to be activated in the Psychic subphase, Acts of Faith can be activated at the start of any phase.

According to the GK codex, their immunity to corruption is a combination of training, indoctrination and fortitude - the training part of which includes blood rituals such as that used against the Blood Tide, mantras (such as the ennumerations used by the thousand sons before their fall) and correct usage of the Aegis anti-psi bodysuit.

Sisters are just badass enough to shrug it off.

On the other hand, you have to realise that Sisters are inherently more resistant to daemonic and warp corruption than Grey Knights. Simply being a psyker makes you vulnerable to anything warp-borne, so it's doubtful that the Grey Knights would be immune to warpcraft in the same way as the Sisters are without the additional help of the Aegis and their profane knowledge.

Edit: Incidentally, the Sisters of Silence originate from the Collected Visions artbook, I believe, somewhat predating the Horus Heresy novels. They're still a SoB-knockoff because they couldn't put Sisters in the Horus Heresy artbook, but still, they have a little more heritage than Lynata implied.

I have to admit I liked the GK more when they were still shining paladins not relying on Chaos Sorcery to stave off corruption ...
... on the other hand, I have to agree that this creates an interesting conflict between their apparent image and their actual practices, and I do like such contradictions as much as 40k as a setting seems to do. Perhaps the shining paladins didn't quite "fit" the theme, as sad as it is.

Troike wrote:I wouldn't mind Ward wiritng it, actually. He wrote their fluff properly in the 5e 'dex (Praxedes aside) and he's known for making competetive armies. Kelly could also be a good choice. He's expressed interest in writing them, which is always a good sign, and he codexes generally seem to be okay.

Get Andy Hoare back on board!

Hmm, you know...

I'd like to see Sisters Hospitaler as ICs that you can buy for squads of Battle Sisters, perhaps certain other units (not Repentia). She has similar stats to a bog-standard Battle Sister, and grants the unit FNP for as long as she's alive, *or* can grant an RP-like effect (5+?) due to her medical ministrations if the unit does not move in the player turn following a turn in which they take casualties.

I'd like to see Sisters Dialoguous as ICs that you can buy for squads that grant one of a set of rules, to reflect the Dialoguous' knowledge and learning. Something like PE or a +1 to the unit's DtW tests or something along those lines, reflecting that individual's area of expertise.

Alternately, make the Dialoguous a squad or character that accompanies a Relic carried into battle, similar to the crew of on-table artillery pieces and grants some sort of Army-wide (or 24" or whatever) buff to SOB and allied Imperial armies (SM, IG, etc.).

And Biker Nuns with Guns has to happen now. Big, gnarly, blinged out Church-trikes. Wheels studded with fleur de lis, twin-linked heavy flamers on the front, straight church-organ exhaust pipes, all gold and belching smoke and incense. Laud-hailer cherub. Rosary w/ Aquila or Ecclesiarchal =I= all hanging off the ape-hanger handlebars.

Ah, whatever you convinced me, no psychic shenanigans for the Sisters! Luckily, I have the excuse of not being a SoB player (but my most frequent opponent is a massive SoB fanatic with 20k points of pure sisters, but he plays using his own fandex and not the WDex) so please, don't make me repent or something !

 Psienesis wrote:
And Biker Nuns with Guns has to happen now. Big, gnarly, blinged out Church-trikes. Wheels studded with fleur de lis, twin-linked heavy flamers on the front, straight church-organ exhaust pipes, all gold and belching smoke and incense. Laud-hailer cherub. Rosary w/ Aquila or Ecclesiarchal =I= all hanging off the ape-hanger handlebars.

I was rather apprehensive about the idea of bikes, seeing as it could be seen as just copying the Marines, but this made me a little more open to the idea. The Sisters are good at making things look awesome.

They'd have to play fairly differnetly to the Marine bikes, of course.

And while we're talking about the Dialogus, get her a new model. One with a better face. And without the Inquisition symbol on her.

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:I wouldn't mind Ward wiritng it, actually. He wrote their fluff properly in the 5e 'dex (Praxedes aside) and he's known for making competetive armies. Kelly could also be a good choice. He's expressed interest in writing them, which is always a good sign, and he codexes generally seem to be okay.

Get Andy Hoare back on board!

He has been doing freelance work for them after he left, I think. Though I don't know if they'd ask him to come and help with a codex. It'd certainly make for good fluff, though.